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Michael Shermer vs. "alternative history" Hancock and Crandall

NOT EVEN CLOSE!

"In this zone 20,483 ha have been planted..."

This place has hundreds of millions of plants, some with a canopy of 90+ feet...

It's a matter of fact. look at the links. google the place. visit it, it's a real place. Why would you think that it isn't what it is?

To add. Where are you getting the figure of hundreds of millions? Do you think the bigger trees were 90ft plus when they were planted fifty years ago?
 
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As for the size of the plantations there are many thousands of square miles of planted forests around the world. Even here in the north of England we have some very big man made forests. I am surrounded by them in North Yorkshire and up the road in Northumberland is Kielder Forest it's the largest man-made woodland in England over 250 square miles.

You might be wrong about that...this looks bigger, and far more uniform/complete.
 
Who cares? Why are you derailing this thread for this off topic nonsense?

I mean we know you're not a serious poster but you don't have to prove it in EVERY post

I think it's important.

It shows the levels of delusion we are dealing with.

This is a well known forestation program that has been running for fifty years, well documented and used as a model elsewhere in the world including Spain.

I have provided links to masses of information and documentation about it, others have also posted information on it but he denies it and sticks with his made up fantasy that it is some kind of giant ancient orchard left over from his fantasy ancient civilization.
 
It's a desert, there were no trees to deforest.
Pampa del Tamarugal is a pampas (fertile plain) not an exclusively sand desert like the Sahara. It is semi-arid, i.e. low rainfall, with plants adapted to those conditions (see below).

Pampa del Tamarugal is between the Pacific ocean and Chilean mountains between the parallels 19°30’ and 22°15’ south. The first area of plantations you mention are at 19°43'11.36"S 69°53'41.84"W and then you go south to more plantations. This is all within the pampas.

Pampa del Tamarugal was covered in Prosopis tamarugo trees which gave it its name.

Deforestation is your idea. No one said that there was deforestation. The project begun in the 1960's is a forestation project to turn the desert into forest using the same species of trees that are already growing there.
 
Who cares? Why are you derailing this thread for this off topic nonsense?

I mean we know you're not a serious poster but you don't have to prove it in EVERY post

We are talking about globally connected civilizations...

I used a line from EI to the coast...to locate the largest cultivated tree orchard I've ever seen.

It has hundreds of millions of trees, that are good for food, fuel, and construction...and some of them are absolutely massive.
 
"In this zone 20,483 ha have been planted..."
Quote mining an uncited quote is considered to be close to a lie.
The source: Silvopastoral systems in arid and semiarid zones of northern Chile
The full abstract:
The main silvopastoral systems carried out in arid and semiarid zones of northern Chile are presented. Plantations with queñoa (Polylepis besseri) in the Precordillera (3,000–4,000 meters above sea level) and with ‘queñoa de altura’ (Polylepis tarapacana) in the High Plateau (over 4,000 m.a.s.l.) are described. For extremely arid zones (2 mm/yr), tamarugo (Prosopis tamarugo) and algarrobo (Prosopis chilensis) plantations in Pampa del Tamarugal are reviewed. In this zone 20,483 ha have been planted, 88% with P. tamarugo. These plantations feed a variable herd of 7,000–9,000 sheep and goats per yr. The forage produced per tree varies from 20 to 70 kg/yr for 14 to 22 yr old trees, planted in densities of 100/ha.

For the semiarid zone, plantations with forage shrubs of the genus Atriplex are described. Between 1975 and 1989, about 37,000 ha were planted in the coastal zone of Coquimbo region, 60% of them with A. nummularia and the rest with A. repanda. Productivity varies widely in both species. It depends on management techniques and environmental variables.

Afforestation with such species offers green forage during periods of scarcity of natural grasses, especially during long droughts. The rate of afforestation is declining because the government has stopped planting, and the private sector is planting less than expected. This is because often yields have been low, due to either natural causes or deficient management.
That is real data from a reliable source from 1991.
20,483 ha @ 100/ha = 2,048,300 trees + 37,000 ha @ (presumably) 100/ha = 3,700,000 trees = ~5.7 million trees actually planted by 1991.

On the other had we have your post with "This orchard has two sides and is 12 miles long and 3 miles wide, with plants spaced about every 40 feet ... ~7.5 million" trees when there are many orchards and that "40 feet" looks to be the minimum distance (there are trees 80 feet apart). Followed by a total guess of "billion of trees" for the southern area. The northern area is ~6,496 hectares. "Go further south, there's an even bigger plantation" that is looks like Pampa del Tamarugal National Reserve with maybe ~29,200 hectares of cultivation. No "billions" there!
 
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WHO CARES?

HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of trees/plants that live hundreds of years old...!?

That are good for food, fuel, and construction...

Okay, this is a perfect example of someone living in their own bubble. Hans is ONLY looking for information that confirms his belief system.

He didn't even bother connection the direction faced with the buried Moai...BAD ARCHAEOLOGIST! Everything matters!

But that's not what he was looking for...so even though on the island, facing history itself, he couldn't even notice that the Moai face two different directions.

Personal Confirmation Bias, plain and simple.
 
Quote mining an uncited quote is considered to be close to a lie.
The source: Silvopastoral systems in arid and semiarid zones of northern Chile
The full abstract:

That is real data from a reliable source from 1991.
20,483 ha @ 100/ha = 2,048,300 trees + 37,000 ha @ (presumably) 100/ha = 3,700,000 trees = ~5.7 million trees actually planted by 1991.

STILL NOT ENOUGH!

There are hundreds of millions...in the big one.

I lowball the first one at 7.5 million.
 
It has hundreds of millions of trees, that are good for food, fuel, and construction...and some of them are absolutely massive.
More fantasies?
  1. With your numbers there are less than 50 million trees in the 2 areas.
  2. The trees are used to feed sheep and goats.
  3. Prosopis tamarugo is a bushy tree (can be foraged by sheep and goats!), has been used for firewood but no evidence of construction.
  4. How do you Know "some of them are absolutely massive"
16 November 2017: What does the Chilean government or scientific literature report for the number of trees in the forestation project?
16 November 2017: List some buildings constructed of Prosopis tamarugo.
16 November 2017: Give your sources for "some of them are absolutely massive" (Prosopis tamarugo)
Or maybe you mean ants or sheep think some of them are absolutely massive :p!
Maybe the idiocy of looking at Google Earth? There are trees of various diameters but you have no idea of how high they are. An "absolutely massive" tree would be a tree say 50 feet tall and 20 feet wide.
 
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See what we are up against?
I can see it.
An inability to understand what they read.
Silvopastoral systems in arid and semiarid zones of northern Chile has ~5.7 million trees actually planted by 1991 (when the paper was published).

An inability to do arithmetic (of judge sizes or use Google Maps properly).
An area maybe 5 times the size of another will not have hundreds the times of trees.

The ability to make up fairy stories.
GT (abandoned ~10,000 years ago) is connected to Easter Island and then EI is connected to plantations that were first planted in the 1960's :eye-poppi.
 
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Prosopis tamarugo
Uses
Tree produces abundant fodder, palatable to sheep, cattle and goats. It is said that older stands will support 26 sheep per hectare. The wood, though hard and difficult to work, is used for furniture and firewood. Man-made tamarugo plantations are being introduced in the Tamarugal Pampa which are transforming the absolute desert ecosystem into an agroecosystem. The result, is a noteworthy increase in overall productivity in one of the most inhospitable regions of the world (Habit et al., 1981). The potential value of the tamarugo was noted as early as 1918 when Maldonado, a forest inspector called for a tamarugo forest preserve, considering it most important for the Chilean desert (Burkart, 1976).
No construction there.

It can be a tall tree:
Deciduous open-crowned tree up to 18 m tall, the trunk to 80 cm in diameter; with a dense mat of lateral roots and deep taproot (to 6 m deep on tree 15 m tall.

40 feet between trees is reasonable:
Plantation spacings in the Tamarugal Pampa are at 10 x 10 m and 15 x 15 m
 
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The influence of the productivity of Prosopis tamarugo on livestock production in the Pampa del Tamarugal — a review
This paper reviews the uses of the nitrogen-fixing trees Prosopis tamarugo (tamarugo) and P. chilensis (algarrobo) in the deserts of northern Chile where the rainfall is less than 1 mm yr−1. These forests consist of 3200 ha of natural stands and 22,980 ha of plantations. The primary use of these trees has been to support goat and sheep production through grazing of the leaves and pods.
22,980 ha in a 1986 paper increases to 77,000 ha in 1991! Sounds a bit high though.
 
I think it's important.

It shows the levels of delusion we are dealing with.

This is a well known forestation program that has been running for fifty years, well documented and used as a model elsewhere in the world including Spain.

I have provided links to masses of information and documentation about it, others have also posted information on it but he denies it and sticks with his made up fantasy that it is some kind of giant ancient orchard left over from his fantasy ancient civilization.

Oh I agree but I think we knew he was delusional before he went off about trees!

It may be some weird way he thinks he can get 'revenge' for being wrong about - well everything in this thread. Keep up the good fight.
 
I can see it.
The ability to make up fairy stories.
GT (abandoned ~10,000 years ago) is connected to Easter Island and then EI is connected to plantations that were first planted in the 1960's :eye-poppi.

Well you have to think in fringe mode....going into the [mode]

You see the trees are there to hide the obvious evidence of Easter Island being inhabited by those from the great global civilization. The governments of the world routinely hide all the evidence - in this case massive signs of the lost civilization that were left on the terrain there. Probably a message to the space aliens or commercial advertising - "Drink Buzze" - in English of course the language of the ancient lost civilization[/mode]
 
We are talking about globally connected civilizations...

I used a line from EI to the coast...to locate the largest cultivated tree orchard I've ever seen.

It has hundreds of millions of trees, that are good for food, fuel, and construction...and some of them are absolutely massive.

WHO CARES?
 
A delusion that all "buried" moai face in the same direction

He didn't even bother connection the direction faced with the buried Moai....
16 November 2017: A delusion that all "buried" moai face in the same direction and that is toward Chile?

Implies fully buried but what I find are ~150 moai buried up to their shoulders.
"the statues on the slopes of Rano Raraku, many of which are buried to their shoulders"
On the outside of the quarry are a number of moai, some of which are partially buried to their shoulders in the spoil from the quarry.

These "buried" moai seem to face in different directions. Moai set in the hillside at Rano Raraku shows 2 facing in separate directions.

Easter Island is ... an island :eye-poppi! Sea facing moai face in all directions - north, south, east, west. Inland facing moai face in all directions - north, south, east, west. Cover them up to the shoulders and still lots of directions. However the Rano Raraku moai are outside a quarry on the side of a volcanic crater and should have a smaller set of directions (maybe covering 45 to 90 degrees).
 
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