Merged The Roy Moore Batcrap Crazy Remark Thread/Roy Moore Is Done

[Arcade22]

I find it odd that some think a man in his 30s going after teenagers is okay just because he didn't rape them and in some cases asked for parental permission.

I find it odd that people think it's not okay if it's perfectly consensual and legal. Why is it that some "liberals" come off as just as terrible moralists as Roy Moore?

Does this mean 30 something men can now flood Alabama and ask out 14 year olds?

No <snip> Did you bother reading the post article? The age of consent in Alabama is (and was) 16. Only one of the girls was under that age when he asked them out.

I suspect a great many will object when its their daughter that much older men are perving on.

I'm also sure they would be. Doesn't matter if it's perfectly legal and consensual.

Edited by Loss Leader: 

Edited for Rule 0/12

 

[Giordano]

Amazing to see the party that wrote anti-trans bathroom bills to “protect young girls from predatory pedophiles” is now defending Roy Moore.

It actually makes a lot of sense. This speaks to the observation that people who are the most concerned about others committing a "sin" often secretly want to commit that sin themselves. The gay-bashing politician who is found in the airport restroom with a "wide stance." The judge who is so intent on forcing others to follow their Old Testament view of morality who is secretly dreaming of bedding 14 year olds. Not a surprise to me.

Who would even think of a person pretending to be trans-gendered to get into a restroom to watch girls peeing? In addition to this being a difficult thing to do in practice (there are stalls you know) I suspect one would have to have been contemplating this oneself to even have the idea that anyone else would try it!

I have observed the truth of this general concept in my own life: the person in one of my former colleges who was most concerned about others embezzling funds was, yes you guessed it, later arrested for embezzlement.

 

[ahhell]

Amazing to see the party that wrote anti-trans bathroom bills to “protect young girls from predatory pedophiles” is now defending Roy Moore.

Only if you think the party in question is a cohesive whole. A number of prominent Republicans have also condemned Moore.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...reaction-from-lawmakers-national-figures.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/powe...e2b598d8c00_story.html?utm_term=.a6feeffa358f

That being said, the fundies have a real weird attitude to underage sex. Remember that story from a year or so ago about underage marriage in the US. 200000 marriages with mostly the bride being married to an adult groom in the last 15 years. Mostly the same folks who seem to think sex is only slightly less bad if you're married so they willingly sign over daughters to their rapists.

I find it odd that people think it's not okay if it's perfectly consensual and legal. Why is it that some "liberals" come off as just as terrible moralists as Roy Moore?

I find it odd that anyone thinks its at all ok for a 30 year to have a sexual relationship with a 16 year old just because its legal and the 16 year old consented. Aside from that, I generally hold the people I vote for to a higher standard than, "they haven't been convicted of a crime."

 

[PhantomWolf]

I find it odd that people think it's not okay if it's perfectly consensual and legal.

Just because something is legal and consensual doesn't make it morally okay or not repugnant.

 

[Arcade22]

Just because something is legal and consensual doesn't make it morally okay or not repugnant.

Of course. Many share this mindset with Roy Moore including people in this thread who apparently treat dating a 16 or 17 year old as equivalent to sexually assaulting a 14 year old.

 

[jimbob]

Of course if more women do come forward, they're just jumping on the bandwagon with unsubstantiated "me too!" stories. It seems that you need exactly the right number of alleged victims.

Too few and it's ridiculous that so voracious a predator could have had so few victims, too many and it's ridiculous that he could have escaped detection for so long .

The allegations about Jimmy Saville didn't become public until after his death. Those about Rolf Harris until he was in his 80's. I don't think it's at all unreasonable that it could take 40 years until someone had the nerve to come forward.

Okay.

Why would that behavior stop?

Why did this talk amongst teenage girls not reach a lot more people at the time? that sort of thing has a way of spreading like a wildfire.

It seems like the sort of info a political rival would love to have and use to stop Moore from running for office or to get him removed?

See The Don's post immediately above yours - or eeyore1954's post

Surprising maybe but the number of accusations of sexual assault in the movie industry many which are not being denied show that for whatever reason people do keep these things secret.

To which one could also add Bill Cosby.

Does it make sense to call anyone except the 14 year old a "victim"? I haven't followed this closely, but my understanding is that all of the other women were above the legal age of consent, and that no non-consensual sex occurred.

So.....victim? Of what?

The 14 year old is, obviously, a separate case. Her allegations are indeed very serious.

ETA: I'm no fan of Moore, but I'm just interested in the way these things are spun.

There is also a power difference. In the UK the law changed so that although the age of consent is 16, it is still an offence for a teacher to have sex with a 17year old student that they are in a position of power over them. That seems sensible.

Moore was going after people where there was a power imbalance. If he had only had a relationship with one seventeen year old, then it might be a bit creepy but no more. However, given his behaviour with the fourteen year old and other teenagers, it goes beyond that.

Context is important. A silly analogy:

I sometimes buy eggs and flour - and I cook with them, which is unsurprising.

If I had had a history of vandalising property and throwing eggs at people's houses, then it seeing me buy four dozen eggs would be suspicious.
​

 

[PhantomWolf]

Of course. Many share this mindset with Roy Moore including people in this thread who apparently treat dating a 16 or 17 year old as equivalent to sexually assaulting a 14 year old.

The biggest issue with a 30+ year old dating a 16 or 17 year old, especially when the 30+ year old has a powerful job, is that it puts them in a position of power over the person that they are dating. The makes people think that they need to submit to whatever the older and more powerful person wants to do, takes away their freedom of choice, and yes, is a type of abuse.

We can see this in the accusations against US comedian Louis CK, where he asked woman is they wanted to see his penis, but because of his position of power over them they felt they weren't able to reject such things. Similarly the whole Trump thing where he notes that "When you are rich and powerful they let you do these sorts of things." No, it's because when confronted by a rich and powerful man (or woman) who has the ability to control you and make your life miserable if you refuse to go along with their desires, people are more likely to allow the abuser to exert that power over them by surrendering their own will in the matter. And that is a form of abuse, and one that people in positions of power need to understand and be aware of when they approach others for intimate relationships.

 

[Arcade22]

The biggest issue with a 30+ year old dating a 16 or 17 year old, especially when the 30+ year old has a powerful job, is that it puts them in a position of power over the person that they are dating. The makes people think that they need to submit to whatever the older and more powerful person wants to do, takes away their freedom of choice, and yes, is a type of abuse.

We can see this in the accusations against US comedian Louis CK, where he asked woman is they wanted to see his penis, but because of his position of power over them they felt they weren't able to reject such things. Similarly the whole Trump thing where he notes that "When you are rich and powerful they let you do these sorts of things." No, it's because when confronted by a rich and powerful man (or woman) who has the ability to control you and make your life miserable if you refuse to go along with their desires, people are more likely to allow the abuser to exert that power over them by surrendering their own will in the matter. And that is a form of abuse, and one that people in positions of power need to understand and be aware of when they approach others for intimate relationships.

Yet none of the victims aged 16-18 felt pressured or coerced into going along with him on the dates or being in a relationship. Even the 14 year old, according to her own testimony, resisted his advances and told him she wanted to be driven home which he did.

Despite this people seem to think that him dating people aged 16-18 not only makes them victims of sexual abuse but is somehow evidence of him sexually assaulting a 14 year old.

Is someone dating a 43 year old woman evidence that they raped a 37 year old woman? This thread has convinced me that it is more than enough evidence to support that conclusion.

 

[BobTheCoward]

Yet none of the victims aged 16-18 felt pressured or coerced into going along with him on the dates or being in a relationship.

As a matter of power dynamic, their opinion doesn't matter. In the most extreme example, a slave in a consenting relationship with the slave master is a victim of the power dynamic.

 

[Stacko]

Mike Lee has withdrawn his endorsement.

ETA: Steve Daines as well.

 

[Oystein]

Yet none of the victims aged 16-18 felt pressured or coerced into going along with him on the dates or being in a relationship. Even the 14 year old, according to her own testimony, resisted his advances and told him she wanted to be driven home which he did.

Despite this people seem to think that him dating people aged 16-18 not only makes them victims of sexual abuse but is somehow evidence of him sexually assaulting a 14 year old.

Is someone dating a 43 year old woman evidence that they raped a 37 year old woman? This thread has convinced me that it is more than enough evidence to support that conclusion.

The story of the 14 year old, if true, is one of a sex crime committed by Moore under Alabama law - and an unethical act according to the ethics standards of many conservative, xtian Americans that traditionally form the GOP voter base.

But is the story true? Is that behaviour something Moore would likely have done? We don't have videos, no photos, not even a diary. Do we have other witnesses?

Yes.

The three other romantic affairs, while in themselves not illegal and perhaps less of an ethical concern for the same conservative base, establish a pattern: obviously, Moore had a knack for seducing teenagers when he was in his early 30s. This strengthens the credibility of the former 14yo's account, and that is IMO the main reason the WaPo reported on these incidents.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Of course. Many share this mindset with Roy Moore including people in this thread who apparently treat dating a 16 or 17 year old as equivalent to sexually assaulting a 14 year old.

Oh yes, and how many of those same people condemned the 18 yr old lesbian with the 16 yr old girlfriend? State law is the final arbitrator of morality?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

The story of the 14 year old, if true, is one of a sex crime committed by Moore under Alabama law - and an unethical act according to the ethics standards of many conservative, xtian Americans that traditionally form the GOP voter base.

But is the story true? Is that behaviour something Moore would likely have done? We don't have videos, no photos, not even a diary. Do we have other witnesses?

Yes.

The three other romantic affairs, while in themselves not illegal and perhaps less of an ethical concern for the same conservative base, establish a pattern: obviously, Moore had a knack for seducing teenagers when he was in his early 30s. This strengthens the credibility of the former 14yo's account, and that is IMO the main reason the WaPo reported on these incidents.

She also told people at the time and WA Po got testimony from those people.

 

[luchog]

Didn't see this posted already, but this is hardly the worst fact of this case. Aside from the fact that a big chunk of the GOP and its rabid supporters are trying to justify this, there's also the disturbing fact that Moore refused to convict a man who raped a 12 year old adolescent child.

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/20...ld-molestation-we-re-done-reaching-out-to-you

Excerpt:

It was an open and shut case. A daycare center employee, Eric Higdon, raped a 12-year old child. He was found guilty under a sodomy statute specific to minors by all members of the 9-judge panel supreme court in Alabama.

Actually, make that all 9 members except one.

Judge Roy Moore.

Moore stated there was “no evidence in this case of an implied threat of serious physical injury.” A child was raped. What kind of “judge” says that?

The exact same judge who sexually assaulted a 14-year old girl in a court custody case!

It’s not like Alabama GOP voters didn’t know about Moore’s awful decision: his primary opponent blanketed the airwaves with ads attacking him for it. Alabama GOP voters just didn’t give a ****. They voted for him overwhelmingly anyway.

And some of his supporters are defending his actions, saying a paedophile in office is preferable to voting for a Democrat. Others are just doing the usual victim blaming, saying that the 14 year old girl "made bad decisions". And he still has strong support from local evangelical Christians.

https://twitter.com/ddale8/status/928734837887954950
https://twitter.com/CarrollBryant/status/928963150820642816

Tell me again how we need to "understand" and "reach out to" Republicans?

 

[phiwum]

Didn't see this posted already, but this is hardly the worst fact of this case. Aside from the fact that a big chunk of the GOP and its rabid supporters are trying to justify this, there's also the disturbing fact that Moore refused to convict a man who raped a 12 year old adolescent child.

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/20...ld-molestation-we-re-done-reaching-out-to-you

Excerpt:



And some of his supporters are defending his actions, saying a paedophile in office is preferable to voting for a Democrat. Others are just doing the usual victim blaming, saying that the 14 year old girl "made bad decisions". And he still has strong support from local evangelical Christians.

https://twitter.com/ddale8/status/928734837887954950
https://twitter.com/CarrollBryant/status/928963150820642816

Tell me again how we need to "understand" and "reach out to" Republicans?

It seems to me that most of the Republican leadership in DC hasn't had the truly horrible reactions we see from many of Alabama's GOP leadership. Perhaps they haven't said as forcefully as one would like that Moore should drop out, but they also haven't said that he is the better candidate regardless of whether the story is true or not, as some Alabamians have.

 

[Beerina]

As a matter of power dynamic, their [a legally consenting 16 or 17 year old's] opinion doesn't matter. In the most extreme example, a slave in a consenting relationship with the slave master is a victim of the power dynamic.

Moore is an idiot and a perv, but this is the most bizarre analogy I've ever seen -- free people freely choosing to do something vs. a god damned slave?!?!?

What.
The.
Hell.



Being fwee is dangewus and vewy scawy, huh? Gobberment should end it for our own good!


Freedom is slavery!


You are free...to do as we tell you! You are free...to do as we tell you!

 

[luchog]

It seems to me that most of the Republican leadership in DC hasn't had the truly horrible reactions we see from many of Alabama's GOP leadership. Perhaps they haven't said as forcefully as one would like that Moore should drop out, but they also haven't said that he is the better candidate regardless of whether the story is true or not, as some Alabamians have.

Given the number of DC GOP staffers who have been caught soliciting underage sex, all that means is that they're somewhat more politically savvy than the inbred hicks who support Moore more vehemently.

 

[Stacko]

AL RNC Commtteman Paul Reynolds on write-in candidate: "If it is possible legally & somebody tries it & a DEM wins & it's pretty relatable to them, I think they need to be packed up & ready to go. Atlanta is not very far away--or they'll need to be north of the Mason-Dixon line."​

It's not still the reconstruction era is it?

 

[Stacko]

It seems to me that most of the Republican leadership in DC hasn't had the truly horrible reactions we see from many of Alabama's GOP leadership. Perhaps they haven't said as forcefully as one would like that Moore should drop out, but they also haven't said that he is the better candidate regardless of whether the story is true or not, as some Alabamians have.

It's pretty telling that his biggest Alabama GOP defenders seem to assume it’s true but just don’t care. Almost like they expected the news to drop at some point.

 

[BStrong]

Of course. Many share this mindset with Roy Moore including people in this thread who apparently treat dating a 16 or 17 year old as equivalent to sexually assaulting a 14 year old.

I have no such confusion and I don't observe anyone else making that assertion.

My particular objection is that imo, any 30 something adult of any persuasion that was pursuing 14 year olds (where lawful or otherwise) rather than like age partners has issues. Even where legal. Whatever floats their boat is their business, but that wouldn't be likely to be someone I'd welcome as a friend or colleague.

And FWIW, I'd look at someone in my age group pursuing a 30 something partner as both ludicrous and creepy. I've seen it in the RW and it's amazing to see some old duffer try to chat up a 20 or 30 something woman - note to creepy 60 + year old men - the beautiful 30 something cashier at Trader Joe's is not looking for you unless she's trying to give you back the bifocals you forgot at her check stand.