Belz...
Fiend God
"Do you want me to lie to you, or do you want the honest answer?"
Cont: The Trump Presidency Part III
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"Do you want me to lie to you, or do you want the honest answer?"
Travis
Misanthrope of the Mountains
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Personally I would love for a Democrat to run on a platform of punishing Trump supporters with a massive, brutal totalitarian crackdown. They would, and shouldn't, win but I'd love to be able to put their campaign signs all over my yard on a busy street corner just so everyone that voted Trump could see how much I hate them.
It would be hugely divisive and would never work politically but, damn, it would feel good.
It would be hugely divisive and would never work politically but, damn, it would feel good.
Fast Eddie B
Philosopher
Old ground I do not wish to rehash. I should not have bothered to respond to the assertion.
Believe what you will - not my concern.
Armitage72
Philosopher
I remember a documentary that I saw a couple decades ago, although I don't remember what it was.
A man was being interviewed and, to be honest, I remember him checking a lot of the cliche boxes: long stringy hair, bad teeth, trucker cap, white tank top or black band t-shirt, standing outside a rundown trailer with junk in the yard. He was complaining about how he couldn't get a good job because all of the companies only hire minorities so they won't be accused of discrimination.
Yes, it was all the fault of minorities and anti-discrimination laws. Without them Fortune 500 companies would no doubt have been fighting each other for the opportunity to hire him. It had nothing to do with any failings of his own. He was flawless.
Wait, wait... I know the answer to this one! The key to success is sincerity. Once you can fake that you've got it made.
Indeed. And Trump is giving them a narrative that is easy to understand. Along with a villain... and with the Deep State, an excuse for his failures.
ETA: And me bein' able to count to eleven all on my own (tho' I do need to use my hands).
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dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
You know that would make you no better then the Trump Supporters?
Honestly I don't know how to respond to so many people who appear willing to only accept simple answers; only accepting, in fact, the simple answers that parallel their pre-existing views and prejudices (not just racial). And this has been strongly encouraged by politicians such as Trump, who have told them that there are no complex solutions and that complicated answers should be ignored because they are the irrelevant ravings of elitist, leftwing intellectuals who don't understand real life.
I suspect the best approach might be to acknowledge the emotions and beliefs that generate these desires for a quick, simple solution and to offer as straightforward start, a beginning approach, to fixing the problem even while alluding to the ultimate solution being complex and taking longer. That detailed knowledge of a problem is not their enemy. Any better ideas?
I suspect the best approach might be to acknowledge the emotions and beliefs that generate these desires for a quick, simple solution and to offer as straightforward start, a beginning approach, to fixing the problem even while alluding to the ultimate solution being complex and taking longer. That detailed knowledge of a problem is not their enemy. Any better ideas?
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
I remember seeing a segment on one of the comedy/satire shows (think it was Full Frontal with Samantha Bee) where they interviewed a man who voted for Trump, but owned a golf course in south texas and would likely see his course strongly impacted by the building of a wall.
The man kept saying that the "wall" was a metaphor. They kept showing segments or reading parts of Trump's speeches where he either describes the wall in detail, and even point blank explains "This is not a metaphor", but the guy still said he would vote for Trump again.
Hlafordlaes
Disorder of Kilopi
All they have, and will ever have, are flags and make-believe. Sad, really.
If you see the world in black and white, nuance is just woolly.
If you see the world as complex, then it's difficult to break it down into something sufficiently simple that is still sufficiently right.
The BBC World Service is currently broadcasting a series of news programmes from the offices of local papers that endorsed Trump. It makes sobering listening. Apparently the biggest threat to the US is ISIS.
pgwenthold
Penultimate Amazing
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But that's the not issue. You said, this is the message the democrats should give. But it was exactly the message that Clinton had. And it didn't work. Because of all the things you said. It was completely ignored in favor of some distorted version.
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
Which, in many ways, is based on bigotry.
When you actually look at the data, the whole "Mexico is sending us rapists" claim by Trump is shown to be false (since on average illegal immigrants tend to engage in less violent crime than natural born Canadians). As for the whole "ban muslim travel", first of all Trump was inconsistent (first suggesting a total ban, then "extreme vetting") and vacuous (never telling us what "extreme vetting" actually curtailed or how it would make America any safer or better.)
So anyone saying they want to vote for Trump based on his stance on immigration is kind of suggesting they are a bigot.
First of all, you'd have to believe that such free trade deals are bad. (I'm pretty sure most economists think protectionist policies are actually harmful to the economy.)
Secondly you would have to trust that Trump would actually cancel those deals. (The fact that he has a lot of his own stuff manufactured in other countries should be a hint that perhaps he wouldn't.)
And should he actually follow through and try to negotiate deals, you would have to believe that he is capable of actually negotiating a better deal. (The fact that his own history is filled with lawsuits suggest that perhaps he's not as great a negotiator as some might think.)
Yes he has. He's illustrated his bigotry and his economic incompetence.
Yes, conservative judges... many of whom are opposed to things like gay marriage.
Which perfectly illustrates the point that was made: being a Trump supporter is a pretty good indication of bigotry.
https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/10/19/16504104/trump-jeff-mateer-lgbtq
As you know, very smart people can be conned. In fact, smart good hearted people are often easier to con because they tend to trust others and they tend to assume that they are smarter than the person trying to con them. But being intelligent in general is of little help when dealing with a good con man. I teach and do research at a university, but I've learned to not think that I can out smart a car salesman- selling cars is his expertise, not mine.
So one point outs not that they were conned, but that they had every reason to trust and support Trump at the time. You assure them that you do understand how even a smart, well meaning person might have done so. Whether this is completely true or not is irrelevant to the argument- in truth I can understand how one's emotion can override one's logic or better judgement.
Belz...
Fiend God
tl;dr, voting Trump.
It may have been the message that Clinton intended to give in her heart of hearts, but it was not the one she effectively presented publicly. Let's face it, Hillary Clinton was not good at connecting with people at the personal, at the emotional level. And she spoke offhandedly at several public functions in ways that were easily distorted and used against here.
Against stupidity the gods themselves are helpless. But one can only try. Again and again. And slowly, after much time, civilization progresses.
phiwum
Penultimate Amazing
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This approach will surely not work. People tend to think they haven't been swindled, that they're cleverer than that. They excuse Trump's failures as a matter of obstruction in the Congress, despite the fact that the GOP owns the Congress. Maybe it's those few disloyal members in the Senate.
But it's not that their vote for President was a matter of being hornswaggled. No, he's a good and decent man, maybe even chosen by God (honestly, I've heard him compared to Saul by family members, the point being that though he's been despicable in the past, he will still be working God's plan at some point real soon now).
phiwum
Penultimate Amazing
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To be fair, I doubt that this particular Welshman swallowed Trump's claims whole.
Spindrift
Time Person of the Year, 2006
You want to be delusional and won't accept reality. Not much can be done for you. There have always been people like you and fortunately in the past there have been enough who shake off the delusions to stop the march off the abyss into oblivion. You should thank those who can handle reality because without them this country has no future but you won't.
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