Cont: The Trump Presidency Part III

[ChristianProgressive]

Please stop saying silly things like this. Trump won by the rules. I doubt the Russian stuff had enough of an impact to make a difference in the results.

Tainted election = illegitimate election.

And all the evidence we now have of direct vote manipulation even further delegitimaies the regime.

 

[BobTheCoward]

Tainted election = illegitimate election.

And all the evidence we now have of direct vote manipulation even further delegitimaies the regime.

How much taint does there need to be? Is every election illegitimate?

 

[ChristianProgressive]

Based on the public evidence to date, that is an utterly false claim. Conservatives had nothing to do with funding the dossier. It was all Clinton campaign and DNC, from beginning to end.

Washington Free Beacon, a conservative website.

Sources numerous.

 

[BobTheCoward]

Washington Free Beacon, a conservative website.

Sources numerous.

You missed an important part of sunmasters claim. The group retained the services of Steele after the free beacon stopped paying. They did not contribute to the dossier (allegedly).

 

[ChristianProgressive]

How much taint does there need to be? Is every election illegitimate?

When the ODNI (who speaks for the US IC) publicly states that interferance occurred, that in and of itself is more than sufficient. We've learned so much more since then through various sources.

You missed an important part of sunmasters claim. The group retained the services of Steele after the free beacon stopped paying. They did not contribute to the dossier (allegedly).

And therefore all the material collected for WFB just got pitched only to be re-collected at a later point? smh...

 

[BobTheCoward]

When the ODNI (who speaks for the US IC) publicly states that interferance occurred, that in and of itself is more than sufficient. We've learned so much more since then through various sources.

That seems like post facto logic and is not applicable to elections outside the US or times in the US when they did not exist. Do you actually have a rule that can be tested against other situations?

 

[WilliamSeger]

Done. Same terms as the bet with Oystein.

Yes, and specifically that you are betting that any evidence Mueller has uncovered of criminal activity will be found inadmissible because it was obtained illegally, because "Mueller should never have been appointed," because "everybody [presumably including Rosenstein] should have known" that there wasn't any illegal activity.

Well, that's a non sequitur, but I'll bet you $100 even odds that Mueller's investigation is ultimately ruled illegitimate by a federal court in any trial that comes out of the charges announced today (illegitimate in the sense that criminal charges will be tossed because of the 4th Amendment and/or the 14th Amendment's right to Due Process). Mueller should never have been appointed, even if there was thought to be probable cause for the allegations at the time, which prompted his appointment. As it turns out, there was never probable cause, and everybody should have known that. This is a classic case of "fruit of the poisoned tree."

 

[CapelDodger]

The claim is that Steele paid Russian government officials for information.

Can one assume you mean paid in cash terms, not some general quid pro quo?
It is, after all, quite possible that Steele is in a position to do them a favour from time to time.

That claim is made more likely by the fact that Steele's dossier is replete with information that he claims was sourced from Russian government officials.

It doesn't exclude the possibility, but then it doesn't exclude any possibility. I consider it extremely unlikely myself.

 

[BobTheCoward]

And therefore all the material collected for WFB just got pitched only to be re-collected at a later point? smh...

That assumes the Steele dossier included those findings. It may have focused on findings that he generated from his specific sources.

 

[ChristianProgressive]

That assumes the Steele dossier included those findings. It may have focused on findings that he generated from his specific sources.

Possible, but I think my points remain. Information, once gathered, typically doesn't get "ungathered". They keep it in case other uses for it crop up.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

On the Opening Arguments podcast they made the point that many of the laws in question make it a crime to even solicit for certain information from certain foreign players. It is not necessary that info actually be obtained or that a quid pro quo be proven.

But I’m not an attorney, and they explain it better than I on the podcast.

 

[jimbob]

On the Opening Arguments podcast they made the point that many of the laws in question make it a crime to even solicit for certain information from certain foreign players. It is not necessary that info actually be obtained or that a quid pro quo be proven.

But I’m not an attorney, and they explain it better than I on the podcast.

That was why Kushner's and Don Jr's meeting was pretty close to a smoking gun.

 

[CapelDodger]

How much taint does there need to be? Is every election illegitimate?

We know it when we smell it.

There's always been an element of circus in elections, more so in the US than most places perhaps, but in recent times it's got totally out of hand, to the point where an election can be entirely legitimate and at the same time completely ridiculous.

 

[ChristianProgressive]

That seems like post facto logic and is not applicable to elections outside the US or times in the US when they did not exist. Do you actually have a rule that can be tested against other situations?

You asked how much information it would take.

Would you not agree that the official opinion of the US IC and LE community qualifies by any reasonable standard?

 

[BobTheCoward]

You asked how much information it would take.

Would you not agree that the official opinion of the US IC and LE community qualifies by any reasonable standard?

No, I would not say that. I would need to see a standard and an explanation why it is reasonable.

 

[CapelDodger]

That was why Kushner's and Don Jr's meeting was pretty close to a smoking gun.

That meeting's not in the dossier so it doesn't signfiy. Only the dossier signifies. Everything stems from the dossier. One dossier to rule them all ...

Bring down the dossier and the whole story collapses. Then we can get back to Clinton and stuff which really matters.

 

[Belz...]

Tainted election = illegitimate election.

I agree, only if the election was indeed tainted. That has not been established. I'm also not convinced that changing people's minds about voting counts as tainted. Votes were not entered illegally.

 

[CapelDodger]

You missed an important part of sunmasters claim. The group retained the services of Steele after the free beacon stopped paying. They did not contribute to the dossier (allegedly).

They can't know that, since they didn't receive the material already generated - and no longer wanted it. There will already have been a file or "dossier" of documents from which the commissioned report would have been produced. That's basic office-craft.

The open source material that WFB received was very likely from a different service : the monitoring of global news for stories of interest to clients is something companies such as Fusion do routinely.

 

[CapelDodger]

I agree, only if the election was indeed tainted. That has not been established. I'm also not convinced that changing people's minds about voting counts as tainted. Votes were not entered illegally.

Of course any attempt by a foreign power to influence a US election is a cause for concern, not to say chastisement where appropriate. It may be done legally but it would still be a violation.

 

[ChristianProgressive]

I agree, only if the election was indeed tainted. That has not been established. I'm also not convinced that changing people's minds about voting counts as tainted. Votes were not entered illegally.

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