Cont: JFK Conspiracy Theories V: Five for Fighting

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I.B. Scientific acoustical evidence establishes a high probability that two gunmen fired at President John F. Kennedy.

Not just debunked, thoroughly debunked.

Other scientific evidence does not preclude the possibility of two gunmen firing at the President.

Yet it doesn't include it either.

Scientific evidence negates some specific conspiracy allegations

Just about all of them.

I.C. The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that President John F. Kennedy was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy. The committee was unable to identify the other gunmen or the extent of the conspiracy

Fun fact: You don't need a second gunman to have a conspiracy.

I remember the HCSA hearings. PBS ran them live. They were a glorified fishing expedition with little focus, and any circus act was welcome to come in and present their pet theory.

I.D. Agencies and departments of the U.S. Government performed with varying degrees of competency in the fulfillment of their duties.

Which can be said of any major event, crime, or disaster in the US.

President John F. Kennedy did not receive adequate protection.

This is true...it is also HIS FAULT. JFK didn't want the bubble-top.

A thorough and reliable investigation into the responsibility of Lee Harvey Oswald for the assassination was conducted.

Having it both ways (see "performed with varying degrees of competency in the fulfillment of their duties".

The investigation into the possibility of conspiracy in the assassination was inadequate.

In the end that falls on RFK.

the conclusions of the investigations were arrived at in good faith, but presented in a fashion that was too definitive.

Because the last thing you want from an investigation is a definitive answer based on the evidence.

See the problem? The HSCA was a dog & pony show fueled by the fumes of Watergate. Don't get me wrong, it did some good, it got the Zapruder Film into the public domain, the autopsy material was reviewed and CONFIRMED, and the airing of many of the CTs in a formal setting killed them. Mostly the hearings were nothing more than a feel-good puppet show.
 
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Because the last thing you want from an investigation is a definitive answer based on the evidence.

See the problem? The HSCA was a dog & pony show fueled by the fumes of Watergate. Don't get me wrong, it did some good, it got the Zapruder Film into the public domain, the autopsy material was reviewed and CONFIRMED, and the airing of many of the CTs in a formal setting killed them. Mostly the hearings were nothing more than a feel-good puppet show.

Amen, brother.
 
Interestingly, the only way it could only be three shots is in the old-school Lifton theory of Kennedy's back and EOP wounds being created by reconstructive surgery, with the throat and large head wounds being from frontal shots. Then Connally would be a single shot.

Can anybody think of a decent way a Carcano round could have entered near the EOP and exited the top of the head while staying consistent with the official evidence?
 
I am positive two rounds did not enter JFK's head. No one has ruled out five rounds, though.
 
Interestingly, the only way it could only be three shots is in the old-school Lifton theory of Kennedy's back and EOP wounds being created by reconstructive surgery, with the throat and large head wounds being from frontal shots. Then Connally would be a single shot.

Hilarious. What's wrong with the HSCA reconstruction? You're begging the question by pushing the EOP wound, which makes your point as stated a LOGICAL FALLACY.


Can anybody think of a decent way a Carcano round could have entered near the EOP and exited the top of the head while staying consistent with the official evidence?

Hilarious. See the HSCA.

Still waiting for you to document your claim that "There were three loud noises in Dealey Palza [sic], contrary to the medical evidence which indicates more than three shots were fired."

Show us the medical evidence for more than three shots. Not your opinion, which isn't evidence. The testimony and statements of the medical professionals who examined JFK or the extant autopsy materials.

Hank
 
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The bubble top was for protection against inclement weather. It wasn't designed to be bullet resistant. What likely would have thwarted the assassination, however, was two Secret Service agents riding on the rear bumper of the limo.

And as you undoubtedly know, JFK didn't want that either.

Hank
 
The HSCA experts probably relied on their flawed interpretation of the red spot as an entry wound more than they did their X-ray interpretations.
 
Interestingly, the only way it could only be three shots is in the old-school Lifton theory of Kennedy's back and EOP wounds being created by reconstructive surgery, with the throat and large head wounds being from frontal shots. Then Connally would be a single shot.

1st shot - miss.

2nd shot - enters JFK's back, exits throat, blows through Conally (this one has been successfully recreated a few times).

3rd - back of head, blowing out top right skull.

It's what happened.

Can anybody think of a decent way a Carcano round could have entered near the EOP and exited the top of the head while staying consistent with the official evidence?

The Carcano round entered where the autopsy record says it did, and did all of that damage all by it's lonesome.
 
The HSCA experts probably relied on their flawed interpretation of the red spot as an entry wound more than they did their X-ray interpretations.

Uh-huh.

You are making bald assertions at this point without even an attempt to cite evidence supporting your made-up claims.

You have no standing to render an opinion as you're not an expert. Your opinion as to what they "probably" relied on is humorous, but ultimately self-defeating.

They know how to read radiographs and you don't. They also saw the complete set of extant autopsy photographs and you haven't.

And oh, yeah, by the way, we're still waiting for you to support your claim that the medical evidence indicates at least four shots, as you asserted here:
There were three loud noises in Dealey Palza [sic], contrary to the medical evidence which indicates more than three shots were fired.

Hank
 
This is an article on the BBC website about the forthcoming release of the JFK documents.

It contains the following information, of which I at least was previously unaware:

There's a link to the report:

This appears to contradict the idea that Oswald acted alone.
I have nowhere near the knowledge and experience of the more regular posters on this thread, so I was wondering what you made of it?

The conclusion of four shots is entirely based on an acoustic study which has since been overturned through a variety of methodologies (most of the issues are spelled out above by other posters).

One point overlooked (that I could see) was that the acoustic study determined Oswald fired two shots within 1.66 seconds. Since the FBI determined the fastest Oswald's rifle could fire two shots was 2.3 seconds, that means either the acoustic study is wrong or the FBI testing of Oswald's rifle in 1963 was inadequate.

Congressman Dodd raised that point here (option three): https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/report/html/HSCA_Report_0258a.htm

Here's the Committee's conclusions before the acoustic experts testified: three shots, all by Lee Harvey Oswald. No evidence of a conspiracy.

Here's the Committee's conclusions after the acoustic experts testified on December 29th: Four shots, another shooter on the grassy knoll, the only shots that struck anyone were fired by Oswald.

In a dissent, the honorable Robert W. Edgar spelled out what the draft version of the Committee's conclusion looked like on December 13th, 1978, and again for the draft on December 29th, and the final version as approved that day.
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/report/html/HSCA_Report_0266a.htm

The Committee's term lasted until the last day of the year 1978. The acoustic experts testified on December 29th, 1978, in the morning. Later that day, after hearing the testimony of those experts (Barger, Weiss and Aschkenasy), and without hearing any opposing viewpoints or vetting the study, the Committee voted to overturn their original draft findings and conclude there was a second shooter:

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol5/html/HSCA_Vol5_0252a.htm

He (Robert Edgar) felt they rushed to judgment.
So do I.

I think the record is clear, they rushed to judgment, and allowed the testimony of three men on the last day of their deliberations to overturn the conclusions they had painstakingly reached throughout the entire year of 1978.

Hank
 
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Interestingly, the only way it could only be three shots is in the old-school Lifton theory of Kennedy's back and EOP wounds being created by reconstructive surgery, with the throat and large head wounds being from frontal shots. Then Connally would be a single shot.

Wow. You really didn't think this through. Neither did Lifton. Who altered Connally's wounds? And when and where?

Lifton is quite clear in his book BEST EVIDENCE that his argument is that all the shooters were in front of JFK. That puts all the shooters in front of Connally as well.

Since, like JFK, Connally had wounds inflicted from behind, that means that Lifton is arguing the shot(s) that wounded Connally came from the floor of the car, immediately in front of Connally, and his back wounds were created later by reconstructive surgery as well.

Was this done in the limo? Or did the Dallas doctors do it and lie about it in their testimony? Those are really the only two possibilities if you want to keep Lifton's alteration theory afloat.

Or, alternatively, Lifton is full of it, and he invented a theory that falls of its own weight. There's a reason his 747-page book mentions Connally only seven times, and never in conjunction with how his wounding could have happened if all the shooters were in front of the limo.

Lifton's 747-page book is an excellent doorstop, but otherwise is meaningless to any rational discussion of the assassination. It simply could not have happened the way he suggests.

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.assassination.jfk/MAPMTY77osk/3L_-PTtFOjYJ

I pointed all this out to Lifton in the early 1990's (see the above link). He still hasn't explained how Connally's wounds were altered.

Which is more likely - that you have uncovered fundamental flaws in this field that no one has ever thought about, or you need to read a little more?

Hank
 
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Interestingly, the only way it could only be three shots is in the old-school Lifton theory of Kennedy's back and EOP wounds being created by reconstructive surgery, with the throat and large head wounds being from frontal shots. Then Connally would be a single shot.

Can anybody think of a decent way a Carcano round could have entered near the EOP and exited the top of the head while staying consistent with the official evidence?

There is a more obvious solution.
Your "near the EOP" is a little off, and the bullet entered at what you keep calling "The red splotch".

Then it is perfectly possible.

One round enters the throat, and passes through Kennedy, out his throat, and hits Connally, being slowed gradually by several entrances and exits, until it doesn't have the momentum to flatten itself as CTs seem to assume. (IIRC the Governor was finally convinced of this himself, towards the end of his life, when somebody calculated the speed, and showed the bullet would be tumbling as it hit him, which matched the shape of his scars. If I'm wrong here, somebody will correct me.)

One round hits JFK in the head, at what you have called the "cowlick" or the "red splotch." It punches through a little hair, a little flesh, and a little bone, into the brain. This is like being fired into a bucket of jelly. As the bullet pushes through the brain, it tries to displace the jelly ahead of it. This displacement makes a bow wave, that we call trauma, spreading out, pushing outwards, and pushing back at the bullet. The immense pressure slows the bullet rapidly, ripping splinters and fragments from the bullet.

At the same time the trauma, this pressure wave, is pushing outwards, expanding like a balloon, pressing against the skull. What is left of the bullet might well have left just above the eye, but the trauma forces its way out in a explosion of gore, that throws JFK's head back.

There is no mystery.
There is no second shooter.
The wounds are not reconstructed, or covered up.
Unless there is something amazing in the documents being released today, there was one guy, trying to make three easy shots, and hitting twice.
There was only the grim, horrible, reality of what guns are capable of, which unfortunately has more to do with ballistics than Hollywood.

To be honest, the biggest mystery to me is not how this happened, it is how LBJ failed to pass far, far, tighter gun control in the immediate aftermath, and that is probably only a mystery to me because of cultural differences in both time and geography.
 
Wow. You really didn't think this through. Neither did Lifton. Who altered Connally's wounds? And when and where?

Lifton is quite clear in his book BEST EVIDENCE that his argument is that all the shooters were in front of JFK. That puts all the shooters in front of Connally as well.

Since, like JFK, Connally had wounds inflicted from behind, that means that Lifton is arguing the shot(s) that wounded Connally came from the floor of the car, immediately in front of Connally, and his back wounds were created later by reconstructive surgery as well.

Was this done in the limo? Or did the Dallas doctors do it and lie about it in their testimony? Those are really the only two possibilities if you want to keep Lifton's alteration theory afloat.

Or, alternatively, Lifton is full of it, and he invented a theory that falls of its own weight. There's a reason his 747-page book mentions Connally only seven times, and never in conjunction with how his wounding could have happened if all the shooters were in front of the limo.

Lifton's 747-page book is an excellent doorstop, but otherwise is meaningless to any rational discussion of the assassination. It simply could not have happened the way he suggests.

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.assassination.jfk/MAPMTY77osk/3L_-PTtFOjYJ

I pointed all this out to Lifton in the early 1990's (see the above link). He still hasn't explained how Connally's wounds were altered.

Which is more likely - that you have uncovered fundamental flaws in this field that no one has ever thought about, or you need to read a little more?

Hank


Lifton never quite explained HOW one moves bullet wounds, either, which is a pretty big stumbling block, if the aim of the game was to convince honest autopsy surgeons of the conspiracy.

If you were shooting from the front, the much more obvious solution would be to put a patsy on the grassy knoll. Obvious, because the CTists have long been trying to suggest something about Oswald's past was fake, suspicious, or a cover story put in place by the conspiracy, to suggest a specific person, chosen because he was going to be in his place of work, was the shooter.

Put the patsy on the knoll, and it could be literally anybody. It's a public space. You don't need the complex charade of curtain poles, fake photos, and pot shots being made at the General. Your conspiracy wont be foiled if the patsy chooses to eat lunch outside, watching the president in the crowd, or if he joined others at the depository in their vantage point, being even remotely sociable. Your conspiracy won't fail, if Oswald walks out the back of the building for a smoke.
 
Thanks for the input, especially TomTomKent, Axxman300 and the ever-reliable (and apparently indefatigable) HSienzant.
I'm frankly surprised that the BBC posted claims that have been subsequently debunked: they are usually better than that.
This puts my mind at rest, anyway: I was worried that there might actually be some credible ammunition for the CT-ists, rather than the damp straw currently on show.
 
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In a dissent, the honorable Robert W. Edgar spelled out what the draft version of the Committee's conclusion looked like on December 13th, 1978, and again for the draft on December 29th, and the final version as approved that day.
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/report/html/HSCA_Report_0266a.htm

The Committee's term lasted until the last day of the year 1978. The acoustic experts testified on December 29th, 1978, in the morning. Later that day, after hearing the testimony of those experts (Barger, Weiss and Aschkenasy), and without hearing any opposing viewpoints or vetting the study, the Committee voted to overturn their original draft findings and conclude there was a second shooter:

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol5/html/HSCA_Vol5_0252a.htm

He (Robert Edgar) felt they rushed to judgment.
So do I.

I think the record is clear, they rushed to judgment, and allowed the testimony of three men on the last day of their deliberations to overturn the conclusions they had painstakingly reached throughout the entire year of 1978.

Hank

This is the procedure I have been attempting to get MJ to understand/accept those individuals involved in any part of the investigation have the ability to submit a dissent. All of those involved in the autopsy could have issued a differing opinion of any of the autopsy results, none did, so any out of context "thoughts" that MJ has presented is invalidated.

One GSW to the back, exiting slightly below the adams apple. MJ still needs to cite where that entry shot is below the exit wound.
One GSW to the head, causing all the damage to the brain and skull regardless of whether MJ "think" the trajectory couldn't. That bullet did cause the damage.
 
There is a more obvious solution.
Your "near the EOP" is a little off, and the bullet entered at what you keep calling "The red splotch".

Then it is perfectly possible.

One round enters the throat [upper back to the right of the spine], and passes through Kennedy, out his throat, and hits Connally, being slowed gradually by several entrances and exits, until it doesn't have the momentum to flatten itself as CTs seem to assume.

Correction above.

Hank
 
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