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Cont: JFK Conspiracy Theories V: Five for Fighting

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You'll all be delighted to hear that Trump is planning to authorise the release of a batch of classified files on the Kennedy assassination towards the end of October.

BBC

Saw this article in Politico. Apparently some people are worried about this:

The JFK Document Dump Could Be a Fiasco

Later this month, the National Archives is set to release thousands of documents about John F. Kennedy’s assassination. It’s likely to fuel conspiracy theorists for years.

If it fuels conspiracy theorists, so what? (Not releasing them would also fuel them: obviously they are trying to hide something BIG!!!!11!!)

The federal government’s long campaign to try to choke off rampant conspiracy theories about the November 1963 assassination of President John F. Kennedy is threatening to end this month in massive confusion, if not chaos.

Within the next two weeks, the National Archives is legally obligated to release the last of thousands of secret documents from government files about the assassination, most of them from the CIA, FBI and the Justice Department.
. . .
Trump, no stranger to conspiracy theories, including totally unsubstantiated theories about a link between Ted Cruz’s father and JFK’s death, has not yet revealed his plans for the documents. His friend and political adviser Roger Stone, the Republican consultant who is the author of a book claiming that President Lyndon Johnson was the mastermind of the Kennedy assassination, said last week that he has been informed authoritatively that the CIA is urging Trump to delay the release of some of the JFK documents for another 25 years. “They must reflect badly on the CIA even though virtually everyone involved is long dead,” Stone said in a statement on his website.

One of the concerns is that a mad rush to download the documents would overwhelm the servers.
 
If it fuels conspiracy theorists, so what? (Not releasing them would also fuel them: obviously they are trying to hide something BIG!!!!11!!)

I think there's a misapprehension somewhere that releasing evidence that JFK's assassination was not the result of a conspiracy will lead people who currently believe in the conspiracy to change their beliefs. Conspiracist belief systems don't work like that, as this thread demonstrates; contrary evidence is ignored, handwaved away, spuriously discredited or distorted so as to support the belief system. Anything any particular conspiracy theorist doesn't like in this document release will immediately be proven fake by assertion ('what, you mean the CIA couldn't generate fake documents given 50 years and Photoshop? Wake up, sheeple!'), anything even vaguely ambiguous will be assigned the most nefarious possible meaning, and the whole merry-go-round will keep turning.

Dave
 
I think there's a misapprehension somewhere that releasing evidence that JFK's assassination was not the result of a conspiracy will lead people who currently believe in the conspiracy to change their beliefs. Conspiracist belief systems don't work like that, as this thread demonstrates; contrary evidence is ignored, handwaved away, spuriously discredited or distorted so as to support the belief system. Anything any particular conspiracy theorist doesn't like in this document release will immediately be proven fake by assertion ('what, you mean the CIA couldn't generate fake documents given 50 years and Photoshop? Wake up, sheeple!'), anything even vaguely ambiguous will be assigned the most nefarious possible meaning, and the whole merry-go-round will keep turning.

Dave

Shorter version - it will create more gaps where they can insert their idiocy.
 
Saw this article in Politico. Apparently some people are worried about this:

The JFK Document Dump Could Be a Fiasco



If it fuels conspiracy theorists, so what? (Not releasing them would also fuel them: obviously they are trying to hide something BIG!!!!11!!)



One of the concerns is that a mad rush to download the documents would overwhelm the servers.

One must not let fear of having knowledge being misused prevent an attempt to educate.
 
Seven pages ago I asked MicahJava a simple question.

Despite my reposting it an additional three times, he avoided responding to the point, changing the subject, answering different questions, and attempting to deflect the conversation each time. Each time he employs these tactics, he shows he cannot answer simple questions asking him to reach reasonable conclusions.

Here's now the fifth time I am asking MicahJava the same simple question. Remember, MicahJava, I am only looking for your most reasonable conclusion here. Forget we're talking about the assassination at all for a moment. Pretend this is another crime.

Can you answer the question?

Given two separate facts, I am wondering if you can tell us the most reasonable conclusion.

Now, I am not looking for the most outlandish conclusion, the conclusion that most points to a lone shooter, or to a conspiracy.

Just the most reasonable.

Assume for the sake of discussion these two facts are true:

1. 90% of the witness stated they heard exactly three shots, no more, no less.
2. Three shells were recovered from a building overlooking the shooting about 40 minutes after the shooting.

What is the most reasonable conclusion you can come up with here?


Hank

PS: For the curious, the same point (in a slightly different form) was made in these four posts below:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12036188&postcount=1897
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12036417&postcount=1916
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12036441&postcount=1920
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12036523&postcount=1936
 
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1. There were three loud noises in Dealey Palza, contrary to the medical evidence which indicates more than three shots were fired.

2. You don't need any shells to know that.

What do you have to say about the autopsy report, three autopsy doctors, and 6+ autopsy witnesses who all gave statements indicating that Kennedy had a small wound near the external occipital protuberance? Do you think the people who examined every corner of Kennedy's body don't know the difference between the base of the head and the top of the head?

With the occipital-blowout theory, at least you could say maybe the witnesses saw Kennedy's head at an odd angle which created a sort of optical illusion. The EOP wound concerns people who examined the body, peeled back the scalp, messed with the skull and the brain, etc.
 
1. There were three loud noises in Dealey Palza, contrary to the medical evidence which indicates more than three shots were fired.

2. You don't need any shells to know that.

What do you have to say about the autopsy report, three autopsy doctors, and 6+ autopsy witnesses who all gave statements indicating that Kennedy had a small wound near the external occipital protuberance? Do you think the people who examined every corner of Kennedy's body don't know the difference between the base of the head and the top of the head?

With the occipital-blowout theory, at least you could say maybe the witnesses saw Kennedy's head at an odd angle which created a sort of optical illusion. The EOP wound concerns people who examined the body, peeled back the scalp, messed with the skull and the brain, etc.


What part of "Forget we're talking about the assassination at all for a moment. Pretend this is another crime" did you not understand?

Try again.

Here for the SIXTH time:

Here's now the fifth sixth time I am asking MicahJava the same simple question. Remember, MicahJava, I am only looking for your most reasonable conclusion here. Forget we're talking about the assassination at all for a moment. Pretend this is another crime.

Can you answer the question?

Given two separate facts, I am wondering if you can tell us the most reasonable conclusion.

Now, I am not looking for the most outlandish conclusion, the conclusion that most points to a lone shooter, or to a conspiracy.

Just the most reasonable.

Assume for the sake of discussion these two facts are true:

1. 90% of the witness stated they heard exactly three shots, no more, no less.
2. Three shells were recovered from a building overlooking the shooting about 40 minutes after the shooting.

What is the most reasonable conclusion you can come up with here?
 
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1. There were three loud noises in Dealey Palza [sic], contrary to the medical evidence which indicates more than three shots were fired.

We can deal with your arguments this way:

Have it your way, "loud noises" vs "heard three shots". I don't see the difference, except you are changing the witness testimony. It was they, not I, that characterized the three loud noises they heard as shots. If they called it "shots", shouldn't we call it "shots"? You are back to ignoring the testimony and arguing with the witnesses perceptions, after telling us the witnesses who picked the grassy knoll as the source of ALL the shots were reliable in picking the grassy knoll as the source of SOME of the shots. Are they reliable or not? Can we trust their perceptions or not? Why are your ignoring what they said when it suits your purposes? How come you contradict your own arguments so frequently?

PREDICTION: You will ignore all the above.

The "contrary to the medical evidence which indicates more than three shots were fired" is false. No pathologist who examined the extant autopsy evidence ever concluded there were more than three shots. This is simply an assertion by you backed by nothing except your own opinion.

You won't be able to cite any medical evidence that indicates four or more shots. NONE. You just made up that claim.


2. You don't need any shells to know that.

What part of "Assume for the sake of discussion these two facts are true" did you not understand?


What do you have to say about the autopsy report, three autopsy doctors, and 6+ autopsy witnesses who all gave statements indicating that Kennedy had a small wound near the external occipital protuberance? Do you think the people who examined every corner of Kennedy's body don't know the difference between the base of the head and the top of the head?

With the occipital-blowout theory, at least you could say maybe the witnesses saw Kennedy's head at an odd angle which created a sort of optical illusion. The EOP wound concerns people who examined the body, peeled back the scalp, messed with the skull and the brain, etc.

What part of "Despite my reposting it an additional three times, he avoided responding to the point, changing the subject, answering different questions, and attempting to deflect the conversation each time. Each time he employs these tactics, he shows he cannot answer simple questions asking him to reach reasonable conclusions" did you not understand?

You're avoiding responding to the point, deflecting, answering different questions not asked, and changing the subject once more.

In the autopsy report, and all the subsequent testimony and medical reviews, I not once came across the language that the autopsists "messed with the skull and the brain". Is this an official conclusion, or just you exposing your lack of medical expertise, and giving us yet another reason to question the conclusions you've reached?

Now, try again. For the seventh time:

Here's now the fifth sixth seventh time I am asking MicahJava the same simple question. Remember, MicahJava, I am only looking for your most reasonable conclusion here. Forget we're talking about the assassination at all for a moment. Pretend this is another crime.

Can you answer the question?

Given two separate facts, I am wondering if you can tell us the most reasonable conclusion.

Now, I am not looking for the most outlandish conclusion, the conclusion that most points to a lone shooter, or to a conspiracy.

Just the most reasonable.

Assume for the sake of discussion these two facts are true:

1. 90% of the witness stated they heard exactly three shots, no more, no less.
2. Three shells were recovered from a building overlooking the shooting about 40 minutes after the shooting.

What is the most reasonable conclusion you can come up with here?


Hank
 
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Psst, MicahJava:

It's a test. To see if you know what it means to reach a reasonable conclusion.

It's not a test to see how well you can deflect, or answer other questions not asked, or change the subject, or avoid the point entirely.

If it was a test of those qualities, you'd be getting an A+.

But you're failing badly, because it's a test to see if you know how to reach a reasonable conclusion.

Seven times and counting, and you can't do it?

It's open book, and you've tried five times and failed five times.

How many more hints do you need?

Hank
 
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What "logical conclusion" do you want if the shooting must have involved more than three gunshots?
 
Seven pages ago I asked MicahJava a simple question.

Despite my reposting it an additional three times, he avoided responding to the point, changing the subject, answering different questions, and attempting to deflect the conversation each time. Each time he employs these tactics, he shows he cannot answer simple questions asking him to reach reasonable conclusions.

Here's now the fifth time I am asking MicahJava the same simple question. Remember, MicahJava, I am only looking for your most reasonable conclusion here. Forget we're talking about the assassination at all for a moment. Pretend this is another crime.

Can you answer the question?

Given two separate facts, I am wondering if you can tell us the most reasonable conclusion.

Now, I am not looking for the most outlandish conclusion, the conclusion that most points to a lone shooter, or to a conspiracy.

Just the most reasonable.

Assume for the sake of discussion these two facts are true:

1. 90% of the witness stated they heard exactly three shots, no more, no less.
2. Three shells were recovered from a building overlooking the shooting about 40 minutes after the shooting.

What is the most reasonable conclusion you can come up with here?


Hank

PS: For the curious, the same point (in a slightly different form) was made in these four posts below:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12036188&postcount=1897
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12036417&postcount=1916
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12036441&postcount=1920
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12036523&postcount=1936

Time passes fast when you're enjoying yourself.:rolleyes:
 
1. There were three loud noises in Dealey Palza, contrary to the medical evidence which indicates more than three shots were fired.

2. You don't need any shells to know that.

What do you have to say about the autopsy report, three autopsy doctors, and 6+ autopsy witnesses who all gave statements indicating that Kennedy had a small wound near the external occipital protuberance? Do you think the people who examined every corner of Kennedy's body don't know the difference between the base of the head and the top of the head?

With the occipital-blowout theory, at least you could say maybe the witnesses saw Kennedy's head at an odd angle which created a sort of optical illusion. The EOP wound concerns people who examined the body, peeled back the scalp, messed with the skull and the brain, etc.

That's no big mystery as three empty shell casings were found on the floor of the 6th floor TSBD. One miss two hits, that's what all of us have been attempting to pound into your head.

You continue to evade answering the questions by asking more questions attempting to move the goal posts.
 
1. There were three loud noises in Dealey Palza, contrary to the medical evidence which indicates more than three shots were fired.

Not the actual evidence, just your gross, willing misinterpretation of medical data that points to a single GSW to the head, and one to the back exiting the throat.

How long before you bring Bigfoot into this?


2. You don't need any shells to know that.

At the very least you need a bullet, and you don't have one.


What do you have to say about the autopsy report, three autopsy doctors, and 6+ autopsy witnesses who all gave statements indicating that Kennedy had a small wound near the external occipital protuberance?

Nothing to say. This is false information based on cherry-picking and failure to understand the data, and using only CT websites for information.

Do you think the people who examined every corner of Kennedy's body don't know the difference between the base of the head and the top of the head?

They do, we're not sure about your ability.

With the occipital-blowout theory, at least you could say maybe the witnesses saw Kennedy's head at an odd angle which created a sort of optical illusion.

The Occipital Protuberance wasn't blown out. You're clearly back-peddling.

The EOP wound concerns people who examined the body, peeled back the scalp, messed with the skull and the brain, etc.

The EOP is your fantasy. The autopsy says you're wrong.
 
I think there's a misapprehension somewhere that releasing evidence that JFK's assassination was not the result of a conspiracy will lead people who currently believe in the conspiracy to change their beliefs. Conspiracist belief systems don't work like that, as this thread demonstrates; contrary evidence is ignored, handwaved away, spuriously discredited or distorted so as to support the belief system. Anything any particular conspiracy theorist doesn't like in this document release will immediately be proven fake by assertion ('what, you mean the CIA couldn't generate fake documents given 50 years and Photoshop? Wake up, sheeple!'), anything even vaguely ambiguous will be assigned the most nefarious possible meaning, and the whole merry-go-round will keep turning.

Dave

The file release will come and go. Scholars will pour through them and write books. The JFK-CT crowd was mostly silent on the advance document-dump from this summer containing the deposition of a KGB agent, and the internal CIA memos speculating if Oswald had been working with someone after his Mexico City adventure, or if their ongoing assassination attempts on Castro became a motive to kill JFK.

We're hoping for the CIA's Mexico City files, and the rest of the FBI's post assassination files which might include an internal investigation.

CTers are immune to facts of any kind, and millions of people have been raised to believe all kinds of nonsense about the assassination based on hearsay, and bad TV. There are dozens of authors who have made a career out of the event, happily spreading the latest lies. Every November there are at least two new additions to the JFK CT-loony library.

In two days the wait will be over.:thumbsup:
 
What "logical conclusion" do you want if the shooting must have involved more than three gunshots?


As Tomtomkent pointed out above (and I before that), you're ignoring the central premise. What part of "Forget we're talking about the assassination at all for a moment" did you not understand?

This is a test of your reasoning ability, which you are failing miserably. It's not a test of how many logical fallacies you can introduce (like begging the question above). I'm not asking for new, inventive ways you can avoid responding to the point, change the subject, answer different questions not asked, or attempt to deflect the conversation. Just for the most reasonable conclusion, assuming for the sake of discussion two facts are true.

Remember: Forget we're talking about the assassination at all for a moment. Pretend this is another crime.

This is now the EIGHTH time I am posting this.

Given two separate facts, I am wondering if you can tell us the most reasonable conclusion.

Now, I am not looking for the most outlandish conclusion, the conclusion that most points to a lone shooter, or to a conspiracy.

Just the most reasonable.

Assume for the sake of discussion these two facts are true:

1. 90% of the witness stated they heard exactly three shots, no more, no less.
2. Three shells were recovered from a building overlooking the shooting about 40 minutes after the shooting.

What is the most reasonable conclusion you can come up with here?


Hank
 
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MicahJava,

If you can't pass a simple reasoning test, why should anyone listen to your arguments about how you interpret the evidence?

Hank
 
What "logical conclusion" do you want if the shooting must have involved more than three gunshots?

There were only 3 shots. The recovered bullets and fragments support that conclusion. The recovered shells in the depository support that conclusion. The wounds on both men support that conclusion. The earwitnesses support that conclusion. The autopsy report and medical records support that conclusion. The Zapruder, Nix and Muchmore films support that conclusion.
 
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