Michael Shermer vs. "alternative history" Hancock and Crandall

[Roboramma]

Yes. Hand formed pottery is a byproduct of open fire cooking and dates back 20,000 years.

The oldest potter's wheel however is only 5,000 years old from Mesopotamia.

That is another big hole for your claim lifted from that 1961 fantasy movie "Atlantis: The Lost Continent". There was no pottery made on a wheel at Göbekli Tepe

That's easily explained: they had developed a worldwide civilization with international trade and nuclear weapons*, but they hadn't yet developed the pottery wheel.

Simple.

Their worldwide civilization also had no impact on the distribution of plants and animals because they were just a million times better at preventing the movement of invasive species than we are.

It's all very obvious really...

*Hancock makes some vague remarks about this in a previous podcast with Joe Rogan, not the one in the OP.

 

[Hans]

One, do you have a citation for spears 400,000 years old, because I need that feather for mine own hat. *Found it. http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/behavior/getting-food/oldest-wooden-spear

WOW...what does that mean? What sort of civilization might yield such an artifact?

*Depending on the size of the stone structure- large settlements, MANY tools, debris, and YES- a written language is required to building interlocking stones, such as those found at PP.

So you still cannot provide evidence for what you made up as 'requirements' for a civilization to work stone.

nope

I KOTA concede that I was wrong for stating the following requirement: 'large settlement, tools, debris, 'a written language', are needed for a civilization to carve stone.

lol

 

[Hans]

He resigned about 5 years ago, before that he ruled with an iron fist, and was responsible for naming his replacement.

Again, do you really think there is open democratic participation into the digging at Giza?

Still wrong and your other question was already answered above.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh and sorry for the delay in replying I'll be busy this week so may not have much time to note that you are repeating your same claims again. So here they are in advance, these are some of my normal responses to your inane posts:

1. Repeating the same claims without evidence that one never stops being amusing (this time it will work - I just know it......)

2. You have no expertise in rock carving nor about PP specifically - you have proved that by the childish unscientific comments you have made - go read the basic material, please, and stop embarrassing your self

3. You are still wrong about Hawass, lol

4. You avoided the info on the dating of PP - I guess you've haven't seen that before? It's a mysterious thing called science. It undercuts everything GH and the other silly rumor mongers have ever told you.

 

[Andy_Ross]

... they had developed a worldwide civilization with international trade and nuclear weapons*...
*Hancock makes some vague remarks about this in a previous podcast with Joe Rogan, not the one in the OP.

I have seen this claim made before by various alternative history and UFO believers with reference to natural fission reactors such as the we ll known one at Oklo in Gabon.

 

[Hans]

I have seen this claim made before by various alternative history and UFO believers with reference to natural fission reactors such as the we ll known one at Oklo in Gabon.

Yeah it a common throw away comment, unhampered by a lack of evidence. The fringe view is that it is needed therefore they just wave it into existence, 'it' just happens and one shouldn't dwell on it too much - from their point of view.

 

[Hans]

Some more information for those interested in Tiwanaku and Puma Punku

Mods, yes I know this is a large list but I'm attempting to make a point that their is a great deal of material that exist on this archaeological site - most if not all is never read by the fringe.

http://www.hallofmaat.com/modules.php?name=Articles&file=article&sid=166

The Tiahuanaco Site, which is currently called the "Tiwanaku Site" is used to support various ideas about global floods, Earth Crustal Displacement, and prehistoric high-tech civilizations. The people making these claims simply ignore most, if not all, of the research about the Tiwanaku Site that has been conducted and published over the last two or three decades.

This list is several years old and 1-4 books a year are added by new researchers.
Books
Albarracin-Jordan, J. V., 1996, Tiwanaku: Arqueologia Regional y Dinamica Segmentaria. Editores Plural, La Paz, Bolivia.

Albarracin-Jordan, J. V., 1999, The Archaeology of Tiwanaku: The Myths, History, and Science of an Ancient Andean Civilization. Impresion P.A.P., La Paz, Bolivia.

Albarracin-Jordan, J. V. and J. E. Mathews, 1990, Asentamientos Prehispanicos del Valle de Tiwanaku, Vol. 1. Producciones CIMA, La Paz, Bolivia.

Alconini Mujica, S., 1995, Rito, Simbolo e Historia en la Piramide de Akapana, Tiwanaku: Un Analisis de Ceramica Ceremonial Prehispanica. Editorial Accion, La Paz, Bolivia.

Bandy, Matthew S., 2001, Population and History in the Ancient Titicaca Basin. Unpublished PhD Dissertation, University of California, Berkeley, California.

Bennett,W. C., and J. B. Bird, 1964, Andean Culture History: The Archaeology of the Central Andes From Early Man to the Incas. Natural History Press, Garden City, New Jersey.

Janusek, John W., 2004, Identity and Power in the Ancient Andes: Tiwanaku Cities Through Time. Routledge, New York, New York.

Janusek, John W., 2008, Ancient Tiwanaku: Civilization in the High Andes. Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, United Kingdom.

Kolata, Alan L., 1993, The Tiwanaku: Portrait of an Andean Civilization. Blackwell Publishers, Cambridge, United Kingdom.

Kolata, Alan L., 1996a, Valley of the Spirits: A Journey into the Lost Realm of the Ancient Aymara. John Wiley & Sons, Inc, New York, New York.

Kolata, Alan L., 1996b, Tiwanaku and Its Hinterland: Agroecology: Archaeology & Paleoecology of an Andean Civilization, Vol. 1. Smithsonian Institution Press, Washington, DC.

Kolata, Alan L., 2003, Tiwanaku and Its Hinterland: Archaeology and Paleoecology of an Andean Civilization, Vol. 2. Smithsonian Institution Press, Washington, DC.

Mujica. Sonia A., 1995, Rito, Simbolo e Historia en la Piramide de Akapana, Tiwanaku: Un Analisis de Ceramica Ceremonial Prehispanica. Latin American Archaeology Publications, University of Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

Ponce Sangines, Carlos, 1969, Descripcion Surmaria del Templete Semisubterraneo de Tiwanaku. 4th ed., Los Amigos de Libro, La Paz, Bolivia

Ponce Sangines, Carlos, 1976, La Ceramica de la Epoca I de Tiwanaku, volume 18 of Centro de Investigaciones Arqueol—gicas Nueva Serie. Editorial Universo, La Paz, Bolivia.

Ponce Sangines, Carlos, 1969, La ciudad de Tiwanaku : a proposito del ultimo libro sobre planeamiento urbano precolombino de Jorge Hardoy, Supplement to Arte y Arquelogia, vol. 1. Universidad Major de San Andres, La Paz, Bolivia.

Ponce Sangines, Carlos, 1981 [1972], Tiwanaku: Espacio, Tiempo, Cultura: Ensayo de sintesis arqueologica. Los Amigos del Libro, La Paz, Bolivia (originally published, Academia Nacional de Ciencias de Bolivia, La Paz, Bolivia).

Ponce Sangines, Carlos, 1995, Tiwanaku: 200 Anos de Investigaciones Arqueologicos. Producciones Cima, La Paz, Bolivia.

Ponce Sangines, Carlos, E. A. Castanos, S. W. Avila, and B. F. Urquidi, 1970, Procedencia de las areniscas utilizadas en el templo precolombino de Pumapunku (Tiwanaku). Academia Nacional de Ciencias de Bolivia, La Paz, Bolivia.

Sanchez, Margaret Y., 2004, Tiwanaku: Ancestors of the Inca. University of Nebraska Press, Lincoln, Nebraska.

Stanish, C., 2003, Ancient Titicaca: The Evolution of Social Complexity in Southern Peru and Northern Bolivia. University of California Press, Los Angeles, California.

Silverman, Helaine, 2004, Andean Archaeology. Blackwell Publishing, Boston, Massachusetts.

Other Publications
Other references concerning the site and culture associated with the Tiahuanaco (Tiwanaku) Site are:

Albarracin-Jordan, J. V., 1996a, Tiwanaku settlement system: The integration of nested hierarchies in the lower Tiwanaku Valley. Latin American Antiquity. vol. 7, pp. 183-210.

Albarracin-Jordan, J. V., 1996b, De Tiwanaku a Uma-Pacajes: continuidad y cambio cultural. Beitrage zur Allgemeinen und Vergleichenden Archaologie. vol. 16, pp. 301-333.

Albarracin-Jordan, J. V., 2003, Tiwanaku: A pre-Inca, segmentary state in the Andes. In Tiwanaku and Its Hinterland: Archaeology and Paleoecology of an Andean Civilization, Vol. 2, edited by Kolata, A. L., pp. 95-111. Smithsonian Institution Press, Washington, DC

Alconini, Sonia, 1993, La ceramica de la piramide de Akapana y su contexto social en el estado Tiwanaku. Unpublished Licenciatura thesis, Universidad Mayor de San Andres, La Paz, Bolivia.

Bandy, M. S., 2001, Population and History in the Ancient Titicaca Basin. Unpublished PhD Dissertation, Department of Anthropology, University of California at Berkeley, Berkeley, California.

Bennett, W. C., 1934, Excavations at Tiahuanaco. Anthropological Papers of the American Museum of Natural History. vol. 34, pp. 359-494.

Bermann, M., Goldstein, P., Stanish, C., and Watanabe, L., 1989, The Collapse of the Tiwanaku State: A View from the Osmore Drainage. In Ecology, Settlement, and History in the Osmore Drainage, British Archaeological Reports International Series vol. 545, edited by D. Rice, C. Stanish, and P. R. Scarr, pp. 269-286. Oxford, United Kingdom.

Bermann, M., 1997, Domestic life and vertical integration in the Tiwanaku heartland. Latin American Antiquity. vol. 8, pp. 93-112.

Binford, M. W., A. L. Kolata, M. Brenner, J. W. Janusek, M. T. Seddon, M. Abbott, and J. H. Curtis, 1997, Climate variation and the rise and fall of an Andean civilization. Quaternary Research. vol. 47, pp. 235-248.

Browman, D. L., 1978a, The Temple of Chiripa (Lake Titicaca, Bolivia). In El Hombre y La Cultura Andina, III Congreso Peruano, edited by R. Matos Mendieta, pp. 807-813. Editora Lasontay, Lima, Peru.

Browman, D. L., 1978b, Toward the development of the Tiahuanaco (Tiwanaku) state. In Advances in Andean Archaeology, edited by D. L. Browman, pp. 327-349. Mouton, The Hague, Netherlands.

Browman, D. L., 1980, Tiwanaku Expansion and Altiplano Economic Patterns. Estudios Arqueologicos. vol. 5, pp. 107-120.

Browman, D. L., 1981, New light on Andean Tiwanaku. New Scientist. vol. 69, no. 4, pp. 408-419.

Browman, D. L., 1985, Cultural Primacy of Tiwanaku in the Development of Later Peruvian States. Dialogo Andino. vol. 4, pp. 59-71.

Burkholder, J., 1997, Tiwanaku and the Anatomy of Time. Unpublished PhD Dissertation, Department of Anthropology, State University of New York, Binghamton, New York.

Erickson, C. L., 1988, An archaeological Investigation of Raised-Field Agriculture in the Lake Titicaca Basin of Peru. Unpublished PhD Dissertation, Department of Anthropology, University of Illinois, Champaign-Urbana, Illinois.

Erickson, C. L., 1993, The social organization of prehispanic raised-field agriculture in the Lake Titicaca Basin. In Economic Aspects of Water Management in the Prehispanic New World, edited by V. L. Scarborough and B. L. Isaac, pp. 369-426. JAI Press, Greenwich, Connecticut.

Isbell, William H., 1988, City and State in Middle Horizon Huari. In Peruvian Prehistory, edited by Richard W. Keatinge, pp. 164-189, Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, United Kingdom.

Isbell, William H., 2004, Cultural Evolution in the Lake Titicaca Basin: Empirical Facts and Theoretical Expectations. Reviews in Anthropology. vol. 33, no. 3, pp. 209-241.

Janusek, John W., 1994, State and Local Power in a Prehispanic Andean Polity: Changing Patterns of Urban Residence in Tiwanaku and Lukurmata. Unpublished PhD Dissertation, Department of Anthropology, University of Chicago, Chicago, Illinois.

Janusek, John W. 2004, Tiwanaku and its precursors: recent research and emerging perspectives. Journal of Archaeological Research. vol. 12, pp. 121-183.

Janusek, John W., 2005, Residential Diversity and the Rise of Complexity in Tiwanaku. In Advances in Titicaca Basin Archaeology-1. edited by Charles Stanish, Amanda B. Cohen and Mark S. Aldenderfer. Cotsen Institute of Archaeology, pp. 143-172. University of California at Los Angeles, Los Angeles, California.

Kolata, Alan L., 1982, Tiwanaku: Portrait of an Andean Civilization. Field Museum of Natural History Bulletin. vol. 53, no. 8, pp. 15-24.

Kolata, Alan L., 1986, The Agricultural Foundations of the Tiwanaku State: A View from the Heartland. American Antiquity. vol. 51, no. 4, pp. 13-28.

Kolata, Alan L., 1991, The Technology and Organization of Agricultural Production in the Tiwanaku State. Latin American Antiquity. vol. 2, pp. 99-125.

Kolata, Alan L. 2003. Tiwanaku ceremonial architecture and urban organization. In Tiwanaku and Its Hinterland: Archaeology and Paleoecology of an Andean Civilization, Vol. 2, edited by Alan L. Kolata, pp. 175-201. Smithsonian Institution Press, Washington, DC.

Kolata, Alan L., and C. R. Ortloff, 1989, Thermal Analysis of Tiwanaku Raised Field Systems in the Lake Titicaca Basin of Bolivia. Journal of Archaeological Science. vol. 16, pp. 233-262.

Kolata, Alan L., and C. R. Ortloff, 1996a, Agroecological Perspectives on the Decline of the Tiwanaku State. In Tiwanaku and Its Hinterland: Archaeology and Paleoecology of an Andean Civilization, edited by Alan L. Kolata, pp. 181-202. Smithsonian Institution Press, Washington, D.C.

Kolata, Alan L., and C. R. Ortloff, 1996b, Tiwanaku Raised-Field Agriculture in the Lake Titicaca Basin of Bolivia. In Tiwanaku and Its Hinterland: Archaeology and Paleoecology of an Andean Civilization, edited by Alan L. Kolata, pp. 109-152. Smithsonian Institution Press, Washington, DC.

Kolata, Alan L. and Carlos Ponce Sangine, 1992, Tiwanaku: the city at the centre. In The Ancient Americas: Art from Sacred Landscapes, edited by R. F. Townsend, pp. 317-334. The Art Institute, Chicago, Illinois.

Lechtman, Heather N., 1996, Arsenic bronze: dirty copper or chosen alloy? A view from the Americas. Journal of Field Archaeology. vol 23, pp. 477-514.

Lechtman, Heather N., 1997, Arsenic bronze and the Middle Horizon. In Arqueologia, antropologia e historia en los Andes: Homenaje a Marõa Rostworowski, edited by R. V. Gabai and J. F. Espinoza, pp. 153-186. Instituto de Estudios Peruanos and Banco Central de Reserva del Peru, Lima, Peru.

Lechtman, Heather N., 1998, Architectural cramps at Tiwanaku: copper-arsenic-nickel bronze. In Metallurgica Andina: In Honour of Hans-Gert Bachmann and Robert Maddin, Deutsches, edited by T. Rehren, A. Hauptmann, and J. D. Muhly, pp. 77-92. Bergbau-Museum, Bochum, Germany.

Lechtman, Heather N., 2003, Tiwanaku period (Middle Horizon), Bronze metallurgy in the LakeTiticaca Basin: A preliminary assessment. In Tiwanaku and Its Hinterland: Archaeology and Paleoecology of an Andean Civilization, Vol. 2, edited by Alan L. Kolata, pp. 404-434. Smithsonian Institution Press, Washington, DC.

Lechtman, Heather N., and Andrew Macfarlane, 2005, La metalurgia del bronce en los Andes Sur Centrales: Tiwanaku y San Pedro de Atacama. Estudios Atacamenos. vol. 30, pp. 7-27.

Lennon, T., 1982, Raised Fields of Lake Titicaca, Peru: A Pre-Hispanic Water Management System. Unpublished PhD Dissertation, University of Colorado, Boulder, Colorado.

Lennon, T. 1983, Pattern Analysis of Prehispanic Raised Fields of Lake Titicaca, Peru. In Drained Field Agriculture in Central and South America, British Archaeological Reports International Series vol. 189, edited by J. Darch, pp. 183-200. Oxford, United Kingdom.

McAndrews, T., J. V. Albarrac’n-Jordan, and M. Bermann, 1997, Regional Settlement Patterns in the Tiwanaku Valley of Bolivia. Journal of Field Archaeology. vol. 24, pp. 67-83.

Mathews, J. E., 1992, Prehispanic Settlement and Agriculture in the Middle Tiwanaku Valley, Bolivia. Unpublished PhD Dissertation, Department of Anthropology, University of Chicago, Chicago, Illinois.

Mathews, J. E., 1997, Population and agriculture in the emergence of complex society in the Bolivian altiplano: The case of Tiwanaku. In Emergence and Change in Early Urban Societies, edited by L. Manzanilla, pp. 245-274. Plenum Press, New York, New York.

Moseley, M. E., R. A. Feldman, P. A. Goldstein, and L. Watanabe, 1991, Colonies and Conquest: Tihuanaco and Huari in Moquegua. In Huari Administrative Structure: Prehistoric Monumental Architecture and State Government, edited by W. H, Isbell and G. F. McEwan. Dumbarton Oaks,Washington, DC.

Mujica, E., Rivera, M., and T. Lynch, 1983, Proyecto de Estudio sobre la Complemenariedad Economica Tiwanaku en los Valles Occidentales del Centro-Sur Andio.Arica, Chile. Chungara. vol. 7, pp. 105-142.

Ortloff, C. R., and Alan L. Kolata, 1989, Hydraulic analysis of Tiwanaku aqueduct structures at Lukurmata and Pajchiri, Bolivia. Journal of Archaeological Science. vol. 16, pp. 513-535.

Ortloff, C. R., and Alan L. Kolata, 1993, Climate and collapse: Agro-ecological perspectives on the decline of the Tiwanaku state. Journal of Archaeological Science. vol. 20, pp. 195-221.

Owen, Bruce, 1993, A Model of Multiethnicity: State Collapse, Competition, and Social Complexity from Tiwanaku to Chiribaya in the Osmore Valley, Peru. Unpublished PhD Dissertation, Department of Anthropology, University of California, Los Angeles, California.

Parsons, J., 1968, An Estimate of Size and Population for Middle Horizon Tiahuanaco, Bolivia. American Antiquity. vol. 40, pp. 259-282.

Ponce Sangines, Carlos, 1947, Ceramica Tiwanacota. Revista Geografica Americana. vol. 28, pp. 204-214.

Ponce Sangines, Carlos, 1991, El urbanismo de Tiwanaku. Pumapunku. Nueva Epoca. vol. 1, pp. 7-27.

Ponce Sangines, Carlos, 1993, La ceramica de la epoca I (aldeana) de Tiwanaku. Pumapunku. Nueva Epoca. vol. 4, pp. 48-89.

Portugal Ortiz, M., and M. Portugal Zamora, 1977, Investigaciones Arqueologicas en el Valle de Tiwanaku. In Arqueologia en Bolivia y Peru: Jornadas Peruano-Bolivianos de Estudio Cient’fico del Altiplano Boliviano y del Sur del Peru, Vol 2, pages 243-283. Casa Municipal de la Cultura "Franz Tamayo", La Paz, Bolivia.

Protzen, Jean-Pierre, and Stella Nair, 1997, Who taught the Inca stonemasons their skill? Journal of the Society of Architectural Historians. vol. 56, no. 3, pp. 146-167.

Protzen, Jean-Pierre, and Stella Nair, 2000, On reconstructing Tiwanaku architecture. Journal of the Society of Architectural Historians. vol. 59, no. 2, pp. 358-371.

Reinhard, J., 1992a, Investigaciones arqueologicas subacuticas en el Lago Titicaca. In Arqueologia subacuatica en el Lago Titicaca, edited by C. Ponce Sangines J. Reinhard, O. M. Portugal, E. Pareja, and L. Ticlla, pp. 421-530. Editorial La Palabra, La Paz, Bolivia.

Reinhard, J., 1992b, Underwater archaeological research in Lake Titicaca, Bolivia. In Ancient America: Contributions to New World Archaeology, edited by N. Saunders, pp. 117-143. Oxford Books, Oxford, United Kingdon.

Stanish, Charles, 1989, Tamano y Complejidad de los Asentamientos Nucleares de Tiwanaku. In Arqueologia de Lukurmata, Vol. 2, edited by Alan L. Kolata, pages 41-57. CIAT, La Paz, Bolivia.

Stanish, Charles, 1994, The Hydraulic Hypothesis Revisited: Lake Titicaca Basin Raised Fields in Theoretical Perspective. Latin American Antiquity. vol. 5, no. 4, pp. 312-332.

Stanish, Charles, 1999, Settlement pattern shifts and political ranking in the Lake Titicaca Basin, Peru. In Settlement Pattern Studies in the Americas, edited by B. R. Billman and G. M. Feinman, pp. 116-128. Smithsonian Institution Press, Washington, DC.

Stanish, Charles, 2002, Tiwanaku Political Economy. In Andean Archaeology I: Variations in Socio-Political Organization, edited by William Isbell and Helaine Silverman, Kluwer, pp. 169-198. Academic Press, New York, New York.

Torres, C. M., 1985, Estilo eiconografia Tiwanaku en las tabletas para inhalar sustancias psicoactivas. Dialogo Andino. vol. 4, pp. 223-246.

Vranich, A., 1999, Interpreting the Meaning of Ritual Spaces: The Temple Complex of Pumapunku, Tiwanaku, Bolivia. Unpublished PhD Dissertation, Department of Anthropology, University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

Wallace, D., 1957, The Tiahuanaco Horizon Styles in the Peruvian Highlands. Unpublished PhD Dissertation,, Department of Anthropology, University of California, Berkeley, California.

 

[Hans]

Review of the fringe look at the site of Tiwanaku

Tiwanaku was a ritual city which, at its height, was home to perhaps 40,000 people and the central ritual center for perhaps 500,000 people living in the three surrounding valleys. It was sustained by intense cultivation of the surrounding region, the irrigation system of which is still traceable and has been much studied. Radiocarbon (C-14) dates and pottery analysis tell us that, although the first human occupation appeared no earlier than ca. 1500 BC (possibly much later: this date is suspect), the site only started to become a monumental city around 600 BC and continued in use until about AD 1000; its peak was between AD 100 and 900. Field surveys of the surrounding valley have uncovered numerous satellite settlements of the great city, marked by similar architectural features (on a smaller scale) and the same pottery (esp. Tiwanaku styles IV and V). Pottery analysis, a staple in archaeological analysis, also shows the proliferation of Tiwanaku styles IV and V around the Central Andean region, unearthed in confirmed archaeological contexts. The interpretation of this distribution is unclear: was it due to a Tiwanaku empire or a cultural and/or economic sphere of influence? Further work may help answer this crucial question. The collapse of the Tiwanaku state is also something of a mystery, as is always the case when a complex and impressive culture disappears -- 1500 years later, people are still debating why the Roman Empire fell, or even if it "fell" at all! In the case of Tiwanaku, one possibility is that a famine induced by drought crippled the irrigation system and led to internal turmoil. More work is needed to test this hypothesis, however. Thus, our state of knowledge about Tiwanaku is pretty good, but not perfect. It is improving all the time, the more work is done on the site and its environs. This is a situation entirely typical of "conventional" archaeological investigations -- a picture emerges gradually, as the evidence is collected, collated, and hypotheses developed to explain it.


Enter the Alternative Historians

What does Mr. Hancock do with all of this information, gleaned from dozens of careful studies of the site and its surroundings, from close analysis of its artifacts and art, from C-14 dates derived from archaeological context, and from the study of Tiwanaku's context in Central Andean history? What does he do? He ignores it. He claims that "Minimal archaeology has been done over the years" (BBC Horizon interview, at Hancock's website). See here again the myriad of studies recording the "minimal archaeology done over the years."

http://www.hallofmaat.com/modules.php?name=Articles&file=article&sid=20

A good example of fringe standard research technique: "if the evidence is against you - ignore it".

 

[King of the Americas]

Some more information for those interested in Tiwanaku and Puma Punku

Mods, yes I know this is a large list but I'm attempting to make a point that their is a great deal of material that exist on this archaeological site - most if not all is never read by the fringe.

http://www.hallofmaat.com/modules.php?name=Articles&file=article&sid=166

The Tiahuanaco Site, which is currently called the "Tiwanaku Site" is used to support various ideas about global floods, Earth Crustal Displacement, and prehistoric high-tech civilizations. The people making these claims simply ignore most, if not all, of the research about the Tiwanaku Site that has been conducted and published over the last two or three decades.

Quote from one of his links:


"Clearly, long before Posnansky (1943) studied Tiwanaku, it
had been badly disturbed. He was studying a site severely
damaged by stone mining, looting, and vandalism. As a
result, even his pains-taking study of the site would have
been badly skewed by the severe disturbance to this site.
This is one reason why his dating of Tiwanaku has been
ignored by archaeologists." http://www.hallofmaat.com/modules.php?name=Articles&file=article&sid=165

*ETA: Next time read the garbage you post, so that you don't help the side you are supposed to oppose.

 

[Hans]

Quote from on of his links:


"Clearly, long before Posnansky (1943) studied Tiwanaku, it
had been badly disturbed. He was studying a site severely
damaged by stone mining, looting, and vandalism. As a
result, even his pains-taking study of the site would have
been badly skewed by the severe disturbance to this site.
This is one reason why his dating of Tiwanaku has been
ignored by archaeologists." http://www.hallofmaat.com/modules.php?name=Articles&file=article&sid=165

*ETA: Next time read the garbage you post, so that you don't help the side you are supposed to oppose.

Chuckle, so you are so absolutely desperate to try to discredit the science on PP you do so by referring to a bad piece of fringe science, okay. His study was crap and his conclusion incorrect - which is why the fringe love him.

PS I suggest you go read who Posie was and what he said......

NEXT

All findings remain unchallenged. Pp is a modern construction.

 

[King of the Americas]

Chuckle, so you are so absolutely desperate to try to discredit the science on PP you do so by referring to a bad piece of fringe science, okay. His study was crap and his conclusion incorrect - which is why the fringe love him.

PS I suggest you go read who Posie was and what he said......

NEXT

All findings remain unchallenged. Pp is a modern construction.

I am using links YOU posted...

 

[Hans]

I am using links YOU posted...

Yes and as usual your lack of knowledge of the site makes you say things that fully demonstrate your completely ignorance of the subject matter.

Do you even know who Posnansky was and what his 'dating' was about?

Here's laughing at you - once again
------------------------------------------------------------------

For lurkers Posnansky in '43 before C-14 and other methods were available tried to date the site by 'astrosmetrics' or somesuch. As noted above the above ground site was disturbed so his attempt failed. His date of 17,000 years was not given any credence and was disproved by later scientific dating. That date is particularly beloved by the fringe and often used by Graham Hancock and others - well others other than KOTA.

I have to wonder why he is attacking a fringe (off base) hero.....lol

 

[Hans]

So KOTA in the reading list I put up how many of those have you read?

What does Mr. Hancock do with all of this information, gleaned from dozens of careful studies of the site and its surroundings, from close analysis of its artifacts and art, from C-14 dates derived from archaeological context, and from the study of Tiwanaku's context in Central Andean history? What does he do? He ignores it. He claims that "Minimal archaeology has been done over the years" (BBC Horizon interview, at Hancock's website). See here again the myriad of studies recording the "minimal archaeology done over the years."

So why did Hancock say'minimal archaeology has been done over the years" can you explain to us why he is lying about this?

 

[Craig B]

Various independent thinkers are raising money by public contributions, to fund cosmogenic dating of Puma Punku. In advance, they know what they will find, and it looks very significant and valuable. Worth every penny I'd say.

The impact of this study on human thinking will be dramatic. It will help make sense of some of the ancient texts, including the Sumerian writings and stories in the Bible. If there was a society with high technology in prehistory, this may be an opportunity for us to begin to recapture or perhaps reverse engineer that technology to improve the lives of everyone on the planet.​

Make sense of stories in the Bible, eh? Great stuff!

 

[Hans]

Various independent thinkers are raising money by public contributions, to fund cosmogenic dating of Puma Punku. In advance, they know what they will find, and it looks very significant and valuable. Worth every penny I'd say.

The impact of this study on human thinking will be dramatic. It will help make sense of some of the ancient texts, including the Sumerian writings and stories in the Bible. If there was a society with high technology in prehistory, this may be an opportunity for us to begin to recapture or perhaps reverse engineer that technology to improve the lives of everyone on the planet.​

Make sense of stories in the Bible, eh? Great stuff!

Sounds like great stuff: A short description

http://www.landforms.eu/cairngorms/cosmo.htm

A long description:

http://quaternary-science.publiss.n...s/782/original_vol57_no1-2_a07.pdf?1284108221

With guys who cannot do a DNA test to save their lives are going to try dating rocks huh?

One can see what result they are going for:

Samples of andesite stone from Tiwanaku and Puma Punku that have come from the megaliths will be shipped from Peru. David will photograph, measure and forward the samples to the PRIME laboratory at Purdue University for analysis and dating of the stone based on beryllium-10 production from cosmic rays by way of accelerator mass spectrometry. The purpose of this campaign is to establish an approximate date for the quarrying and machining of the megalithic structures in that region.

This project is important to determine if an ancient civilization with advanced machining technology had produced the megalithic buildings thousands of years before written history occurred. The fine work that was carried out could not have been done by a primitive people using stone hammers and copper chisels, because of the absolute precision of the stone.

It great that they have no predetermined result they are looking for...

Since we are running a very tight budget, the only perk we can promise donors to the campaign is that they will learn the results of the study as soon as we get them from Purdue. Thus, they will come out in three stages. You will have the satisfaction of knowing that you have shaken paradigms on human history.

In real science they would be stating 'we will date these rocks to see the age - not stating what result they know they will get something they cannot know until the testing is done.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Once again, where and what was the 'advanced technology'?
It couldn't exist in isolation. Advanced technology needs the supporting infrastructure of industry a, development and research around it.
It doesn't just appear fully formed and working.
Before you have for example a railway system you need the knowledge in physics, metallurgy, engineering, mining, communications, electricity, education etc to allow its construction and support it. Railway systems we see today are the product of centuries of development in all fields. Same with motor cars, ships, mining, aircraft, television, computers and so on.

Advanced technology that allows the 'machining' or casting of stone would need the whole supporting structure of a civilisation around it.

Apart from this there is never any mention of what the 'advanced technology' actually is.

 

[King of the Americas]

Yes and as usual your lack of knowledge of the site makes you say things that fully demonstrate your completely ignorance of the subject matter.

Do you even know who Posnansky was and what his 'dating' was about?

Here's laughing at you - once again
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For lurkers Posnansky in '43 before C-14 and other methods were available tried to date the site by 'astrosmetrics' or somesuch. As noted above the above ground site was disturbed so his attempt failed. His date of 17,000 years was not given any credence and was disproved by later scientific dating. That date is particularly beloved by the fringe and often used by Graham Hancock and others - well others other than KOTA.

I have to wonder why he is attacking a fringe (off base) hero.....lol

I am fairly certain, that the fact that the site has been continuously vandalized, and mined for its stone means that dating accurately would be difficult.

 

[Craig B]

I am fairly certain, that the fact that the site has been continuously vandalized, and mined for its stone means that dating accurately would be difficult.

No organics left at all, you're saying, for carbon dating?

 

[Hans]

I am fairly certain, that the fact that the site has been continuously vandalized, and mined for its stone means that dating accurately would be difficult.

Really, but guess what, the professionals disagree with you. Surface disturbances wouldn't affect organic materials buried deeper. Nor would it disturb pottery. Seeing a disturbance of the soil is easy to detect once you dig into it. You might want to look at something called stratigraphy and cross-dating.

 

[Hans]

Once again, where and what was the 'advanced technology'?
It couldn't exist in isolation. Advanced technology needs the supporting infrastructure of industry a, development and research around it.
It doesn't just appear fully formed and working.
Before you have for example a railway system you need the knowledge in physics, metallurgy, engineering, mining, communications, electricity, education etc to allow its construction and support it. Railway systems we see today are the product of centuries of development in all fields. Same with motor cars, ships, mining, aircraft, television, computers and so on.

Advanced technology that allows the 'machining' or casting of stone would need the whole supporting structure of a civilisation around it.

Apart from this there is never any mention of what the 'advanced technology' actually is.

Its so advanced it worked all by itself and creates itself....lol. It's a common refrain in the fringe world that 'advanced technology' just exists in isolation.

It pops into existence then winks out leaving no traces - and most unusual this same AT exists along side with outwards signs of 'primitive' technology. They have great machines to cut rock but fight wars and hunt with with stone or copper weapons, go figure.

 

[Hans]

Some additional thoughts of Tiwanaku, C-14 dating and 'opinions' for interested lurkers.

http://www.hallofmaat.com/modules.php?name=Articles&file=article&sid=19

Finally, Hancock states: "My reservations about radiocarbon will continue to apply to sites that are primarily megalithic and that either demonstrate alignments older than the radiocarbon dates or that contain other features … that suggest greater antiquity." Apparently, then, Hancock will accept C-14 dates when they suit his case and challenge them (without substantiation, argument, evidence, or analysis) when they do not.

So much for Hancock's "methods."

Another view: specifically a reply to Hancock's ascertains about C-14 dating.

http://www.hallofmaat.com/modules.php?name=Articles&file=article&sid=18

In fact, when the conditions are right (as they are Tiwanaku) C-14 datable material emerges from many levels of occupation at a site, not just one. His argument that C-14 cannot date the full picture of human occupation is therefore at best grossly misleading. It can. What would indeed be surprising would be to find that C-14 dated the earliest possible human occupation of a monumental site like Tiwanaku to 1500 BC, but showed no evidence of the proposed occupation for the alternative date of 15,000 BC or for any period between then and 1500 BC for the same site. This would be surprising, since that earlier human occupation had left not a single vestige of its presence, while the later occupation of 1500 BC and all subsequent occupations were so readily identifiable in the archaeological record. To build huge monuments, this earlier proposed population would presusmably have been numerous and well organized, whereas the initial occupants of 1500 BC were not numerous or well organized. Why should paltry occupations be so easily tracaeable but the supposed earlier and more major inhabitations remain invisible to us?