Michael Shermer vs. "alternative history" Hancock and Crandall

[Hans]

Bananas, pyramids, gold and silver coinage, flood myth, witches, elephants, the Gregorian calendar, signs of the zodiac, numbers and decimals...

......one's reasoning that would allow a person to dismiss or ignore such connections.

Because a movie isn't evidence and the folks who made it were using REALLY out of date fringe information. Most of what they said was known to be wrong at that time. I believe they took that info from Donnelly's 1882 book called, Atlantis: The Antediluvian World

 

[King of the Americas]

Yes we have theories on how it was done. Of course the Spanish observed the Incan workers building stuff and the Incan workers were from Tiwanaku.

The problem with the 'molded' idea is that image of an incomplete block from PP that I have showed you. It shows a block with parts completed, started and in the rough.

Please explain how your theory covers that?

[qimg]https://i.imgur.com/Dssmx1H.jpg[/qimg]

The core stones of the pyramid are not molded nor are any known structure - unless they made different molds for each stone.........

Additionally we have their quarries - why quarry rock, break it up (a hard task) only to reform it? Madness. 'The blanks' in the walls of quarries show quite clearly they removed blocks and weren't 'rubbling' it which is what you would need for 'concrete' or molding.

Additionally you avoided my full question: it will be repeated until answered.

You said that a civilization must have the following to carve stone (sic)



Please show that your imaginary had any of these?

TO ME...it looks like someone TRIED to duplicate the process, FAILED to make square corners, and quit.

 

[Hans]

TO ME...it looks like someone TRIED to duplicate the process, FAILED to make square corners, and quit.

Oh and all the other ones too? That not the only stone like that. What about those quarries with obvious squares cut out??

Still trying to avoid questions I see...lol..... okay you get three times then you concede you were wrong.

Quote: you said the following was needed for a civilization to carve stone

large settlement, tools, debris, 'a written language'

So again where is this for your civilization?

......or do you concede that you are wrong.

Now lets see your evidence for molding - I do hope you don't mention the Giza pyramids....lol

 

[King of the Americas]

D'uh - that dates from 2002 dude when he was still on the job. He resigned on July 17, 2011

So you were still wrong. Are you one of strange people who can never admit when they make a mistake?

He built a wall around the place, and single-handed approved dig permits for decades, and you are arguing because he resigned a few years ago, but that he has no say anymore...?

Well, that settles it, I am now certain, Egyptology is finally an open democratic study, wherein actual historic truth is pursued.

 

[King of the Americas]

Oh and all the other ones too? That not the only stone like that. What about those quarries with obvious squares cut out??

Still trying to avoid questions I see...lol..... okay you get three times then you concede you were wrong.

Quote: you said the following was needed for a civilization to carve stone



So again where is this for your civilization?

......or do you concede that you are wrong.

Now lets see your evidence for molding - I do hope you don't mention the Giza pyramids....lol

Why didn't you post pictures of these partial finished square corners?

My civilization?? 10,000+ years have a way of consuming artifacts.

I see evidence of molding at Puma Punku. I never mentioned it in connection to Giza.

 

[Craig B]

Has Atlantis - the Lost Continent ever been proved fictional?

Before the discovery of seafloor spreading the hypothesis of sunken continents was from time to time suggested to explain similar phenomena on both sides of oceans, like the similar plants and animals on both sides of the Atlantic Ocean. But now we know that the Atlantic has opened and closed more than once in geological times, so the need for the hypothesis of vanished mystery continents has disappeared. There is no evidence for Atlantis, although it was a rational hypothesis in the nineteenth century, to explain the things I mentioned.

So we don't need to prove it didn't exist. As with all hypotheses, the burden of proof falls on people who say that things DO exist to prove they do. There is no requirement on anyone to prove they don't.

 

[Hans]

Why didn't you post pictures of these partial finished square corners?

1. Why haven't you seen that already. I mean you're still not commenting on material for which you have not yet read the foundational documents? I see no reason to spoon feed you material you refuse to read and will reject upon seeing it.

My civilization?? 10,000+ years have a way of consuming artifacts.

We already discussed this stuff would survive, tons of stuff - remember the 400,000 year old wooden javelins pretending otherwise is just plain denial

I see evidence of molding at Puma Punku.

Okay that's nice lets see the evidence

I KOTA concede that I was wrong for stating the following requirement: 'large settlement, tools, debris, 'a written language', are needed for a civilization to carve stone.

This will be placed each time you bring it up again.

As a matter of fact I will be doing this for all the items you concede when you refuse to comment on them constructively.

 

[Hans]

He built a wall around the place, and single-handed approved dig permits for decades, and you are arguing because he resigned a few years ago, but that he has no say anymore...?

Well, that settles it, I am now certain, Egyptology is finally an open democratic study, wherein actual historic truth is pursued.

2002 vs 2011 do the math..............chuckle

Playing dumb huh?

Still unable to admit you were wrong, tsk tsk. Its okay everyone can see you trying desperately to wiggle out.

Yep you are STILL wrong about Hawass....

I'm interested in seeing how long you will keep this up.....lol

 

[Andy_Ross]

Stone Molding Machines?
That don't produce identical stones? Each one is different.
How does a STM work?
Where is the supporting infrastructure that produced the STM?
Technology like that would not exist in isolation, there would be factories to produce it, factories to produce the machines that are in the STM factory. Power plants, factories to produce the power plants, factories to produce the materials that made the machines that produced the power plants and so on.

Sophisticated and advanced technology needs sophisticated and advanced infrastructure to produce it.
Take Railways for example. They the culmination of hundreds of years of development in science, technology and engineering that includes material science, engineering, physics, thermodynamics, metallurgy, mining, architecture, electricity, education, administration and logistics . Trains didn't just appear fully formed on the tracks and start running.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

Bananas, pyramids, gold and silver coinage, flood myth, witches, elephants, the Gregorian calendar, signs of the zodiac, numbers and decimals...

The holes?

When did bananas evolve? Why wouldn't bananas be found on both continents later, when they separated?

What is the date of the Egyptian pyramids and pyramids in the Americas? Why would they be the same builders?

Are the creatures , days, months and so on, the same in the western Zodiac and the Aztec calendar?

 

[Hans]

What is the date of the Egyptian pyramids and pyramids in the Americas? Why would they be the same builders?

Yeah PP is only 1700-1500 years old so its a bit hard to pretend they were built 10,000 years ago.

An assessment of the existing C-14 and ceramic datings of PP an associated sites:

https://www.researchgate.net/profil...ku_Bolivia/links/551818760cf2d70ee27aadc0.pdf

 

[steenkh]

Has Atlantis - the Lost Continent ever been proved fictional?

I thought it was obvious that I referred to the film. Well, you live and learn ...

 

[Cosmic Yak]

I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous.
All the animal bones, the teeth, the shells, all of it? In private collections, spirited away without a single piece being found when the owner died, never being sold, never stolen and surfacing in the market later, never being donated to museums? Really?
Furthermore, how could you possibly know this? If all these missing artefacts are being held in private collections, and have never been shown to the public, how do you know they are there?
As for misattribution, perhaps you could share your expertise with the poor ignorant museum curators of the world, and clear this up? Again, with this point, how could you know this?

Ridiculous?

Yes, what was not destroyed or carried away by the flood was collected and still exists, or has yet to be found. Google: "unexplainable ancient machines"

Shall we begin with Dr. Hawass, and how difficult it is to do research or dig at Giza?

I KNOW Puma Punku was NOT created using chisels because I have carved many kinds of stones using various tools.

Simply repeating your unevidenced and ridiculous claim does not make it any less ridiculous, nor does this count as evidence.

To reiterate: how do you know what is in private collections that you have never seen?
Do you have any answers to my other points beyond evasion and attempts to change the subject? (No, I will not be Googling 'unexplainable ancient machines'. That will in no way answer my questions).
If the evidence is yet to be found, as you claim, how do you know this, and how can you rely on as yet undiscovered evidence to support your ideas?

 

[Craig B]

I thought it was obvious that I referred to the film. Well, you live and learn ...

Sorry I misunderstood. But all manner of fictions are infesting this thread, and only some of them are films.

 

[King of the Americas]

1. Why haven't you seen that already. I mean you're still not commenting on material for which you have not yet read the foundational documents? I see no reason to spoon feed you material you refuse to read and will reject upon seeing it.



We already discussed this stuff would survive, tons of stuff - remember the 400,000 year old wooden javelins pretending otherwise is just plain denial



Okay that's nice lets see the evidence

I KOTA concede that I was wrong for stating the following requirement: 'large settlement, tools, debris, 'a written language', are needed for a civilization to carve stone.

This will be placed each time you bring it up again.

As a matter of fact I will be doing this for all the items you concede when you refuse to comment on them constructively.

One, do you have a citation for spears 400,000 years old, because I need that feather for mine own hat. *Found it. http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/behavior/getting-food/oldest-wooden-spear

WOW...what does that mean? What sort of civilization might yield such an artifact?

*Depending on the size of the stone structure- large settlements, MANY tools, debris, and YES- a written language is required to building interlocking stones, such as those found at PP.

Use whatever font you'd like, it breaks up the monotony.

 

[King of the Americas]

2002 vs 2011 do the math..............chuckle

Playing dumb huh?

Still unable to admit you were wrong, tsk tsk. Its okay everyone can see you trying desperately to wiggle out.

Yep you are STILL wrong about Hawass....

I'm interested in seeing how long you will keep this up.....lol

He resigned about 5 years ago, before that he ruled with an iron fist, and was responsible for naming his replacement.

Again, do you really think there is open democratic participation into the digging at Giza?

 

[Hans]

He resigned about 5 years ago, before that he ruled with an iron fist, and was responsible for naming his replacement.

Still wrong and still trying to get out from under your mistake...lol

 

[Craig B]

He resigned about 5 years ago, before that he ruled with an iron fist, and was responsible for naming his replacement.

Again, do you really think there is open democratic participation into the digging at Giza?

Are archaeological excavations performed by people chosen by "open democratic participation" - a vote on who should be there with a trowel? I thought the procedure was a science, not a public event.

Does this apply to other things, like surgical operations? Who gets to participate in the vote? In the case of surgery I suppose the patient might qualify, but in Egyptology referendums, is it the mummy who casts the deciding ballot? Or the Sphinx? Or some gang of Pyramidiots collecting material for a new book?

 

[Hans]

Are archaeological excavations performed by people chosen by "open democratic participation" - a vote on who should be there with a trowel? I thought the procedure was a science, not a public event.

Does this apply to other things, like surgical operations? Who gets to participate in the vote? In the case of surgery I suppose the patient might qualify, but in Egyptology referendums, is it the mummy who casts the deciding ballot? Or the Sphinx? Or some gang of Pyramidiots collecting material for a new book?

Getting a dig permit at Giza requires three things: (or more correct as it was, it may have changed under the new leadership)

1. You must submit a proposal for your project that outlines all aspects of it, from who, what, where, when, how and why - with emphasis on how it will be funded and any possible damage it might do and what is the expected outcome (documentary, paper, book, etc).

2. Your proposal must be guaranteed by an existing and acceptable academic/governmental/business enterprise, usually with one that has prior experience doing excavation/that type of project in Egypt.

3. You must agree in writing to all the rules set by the SCA to include forwarding all findings to them before publication and they may, if they wish, announce them themselves before publication takes place.

So if Suzie and Doug show up with two hundred kgs of C-4 to dynamite the Sphinx to find Cacye's 'Hall of records' they ain't goin anywhere.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

Do hunter gatherers have kilns?

Yes. Hand formed pottery is a byproduct of open fire cooking and dates back 20,000 years.

The oldest potter's wheel however is only 5,000 years old from Mesopotamia.

That is another big hole for your claim lifted from that 1961 fantasy movie "Atlantis: The Lost Continent". There was no pottery made on a wheel at Göbekli Tepe