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Merged Remember the West Memphis 3?

Vixen said:
It is a fact Echols killed a black Great Dane. Baldwin is said to have inserted a knife into it's rectum and pulled out its intestines through the back passage.
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Now you're just making stuff up. There's no documentation of anything like that anywhere.
 
Rolfe said:
I keep hearing this allegation. I have no idea if there is any evidence that it is true. I agree it would have been a bigger undertaking than many people seem to imagine.

Vixen seems to take any wild rumour injected into the case by anyone at all and announce that it's fact.
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Is it even possible to insert a knife into a dog's rectum and pull its intestines out through the back passage?

Now there's a question I never thought I'd hear myself ask. :boggled:
 
John Jones said:
They had fake alibis that they were not weird?

Do you know how irrational you sound?
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That's the problem of apologists for heinous perpetrators of serious crime.

The facts of the crime are downplayed ('he was not castrated, it was wild animals') and the perps romanticised as being victimised by the police.

Then there is the OJ Simpson ruse of 'search for the real killer' shenanigans.
 
Vixen said:
That's the problem of apologists for heinous perpetrators of serious crime.

The facts of the crime are downplayed ('he was not castrated, it was wild animals') and the perps romanticised as being victimised by the police.

Then there is the OJ Simpson ruse of 'search for the real killer' shenanigans.
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No one here is apologizing for them. We're merely recognizing the state did a poor job of proving the case against them, and may have overlooked much more likely suspects.

Remember, the boys are innocent until proven guilty by the evidence.

There isn't enough evidence in this case for most of us either way.

Being teenagers with an interest in the occult isn't enough -even if they really did kill a dog- to convince me they were guilty of murdering three little boys.

If I ever serve a jury, this forum has taught me that confessions are essentially worthless, as are eye witness accounts. They're just not reliable; and no one should spend a lifetime in prison for saying strange things or "being weird".

The USA was built on the concept of "freedom of religion" but it's not a freedom at all if we jail people for choosing to hold beliefs we don't understand or approve of.

Children in this country are taught the police are there to protect them. They're told to call the cops if they have trouble, to trust LEO, to see them as friends and benefactors...but that just isn't true.

Teenage boys want people to think they're tough, even a bit mean. They want to be perceived as "men of mystery and intrigue" and "bad boys" because they think that's the key to respect (and the hearts of teenage girls), but that same attitude is deadly when dealing with trained interrogators who are convinced already of their guilt.

So why in hell is it even legal to interrogate them without their parents and a lawyer present at every step?
 
luchog said:
Now you're just making stuff up. There's no documentation of anything like that anywhere.
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Are you sure about that? Jason Baldwin's own cousin, Joe Bartoush made the following statement. The incident is said to have occurred eight months before the murders, in 1992:

“On 10-27-92 I was at Lakeshore Trailer Park with Damien Echols when he killed a Black Great Dane. The dog was already sick and he hit the dog in the back of the head. He pulled the intestines out of the dog and started stomping the dog until blood came out of his mouth. He was going to come back later with battery acid so that he could burn the hair and skin off of the dog’s head. He had two cat skulls, a dog skull and a rat skull that I already knew about. He kept these skulls in his bedroom at Jack Echols house in Lakeshore. He was trying to make the eyeballs of the dog he killed pop out when he was stomping. Damien had a camoflouge survival knife to cut the guts out of the dog with. This statement was written by Det. Ridge at my request.”
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This statement is backed up by Timothy Blaine Hodge who writes:

“there was a big black Great Dane Dog at lakeshore that I saw on the trail over the Bridge to the right as you go over the bridge it was Dead It’s intestines was strung out of his butt A boy named Adam told me he heard Damien did it. Adam’s last name is Phillips he lives in lakeshore”
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Vixen said:
Are you sure about that? Jason Baldwin's own cousin, Joe Bartoush made the following statement. The incident is said to have occurred eight months before the murders, in 1992:



This statement is backed up by Timothy Blaine Hodge who writes:
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I agree that's pretty gruesome, but it sounds like he probably killed the dog with the first blow to the head -if any of it is true at all. Is there any actual, direct evidence to support this story?

But, now where's the rest of it? You said:

They had an initation rite into their cult, where the new member had to eat meat from the thigh of a recently killed dog.
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It doesn't sound like he intended anyone to eat meat from the thighs of the sick dog he was stomping on.
 
DragonLady said:
No one here is apologizing for them. We're merely recognizing the state did a poor job of proving the case against them, and may have overlooked much more likely suspects.

Remember, the boys are innocent until proven guilty by the evidence.

There isn't enough evidence in this case for most of us either way.

Being teenagers with an interest in the occult isn't enough -even if they really did kill a dog- to convince me they were guilty of murdering three little boys.

If I ever serve a jury, this forum has taught me that confessions are essentially worthless, as are eye witness accounts. They're just not reliable; and no one should spend a lifetime in prison for saying strange things or "being weird".

The USA was built on the concept of "freedom of religion" but it's not a freedom at all if we jail people for choosing to hold beliefs we don't understand or approve of.

Children in this country are taught the police are there to protect them. They're told to call the cops if they have trouble, to trust LEO, to see them as friends and benefactors...but that just isn't true.

Teenage boys want people to think they're tough, even a bit mean. They want to be perceived as "men of mystery and intrigue" and "bad boys" because they think that's the key to respect (and the hearts of teenage girls), but that same attitude is deadly when dealing with trained interrogators who are convinced already of their guilt.

So why in hell is it even legal to interrogate them without their parents and a lawyer present at every step?
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The three men were convicted by a jury in a different county who found the evidence proved the three did it beyond a reasonable doubt.

Instead of crying for these three depraved degenerates, spare a thought for their innocent victims and the awful terror and distress they must have felt confronted by these bullies.

Baldwin's mum was present when police questioned him and she forbade Baldwin from saying a word. The families of all three perps provided them with fake alibis, which were discovered to be false.


Jason Baldwin might look like a mullet-haired nerd, but he had a local reputation as a thug. Today he looks like a benign bespectacled avuncular type, but in prison he operated a reign of terror with other prisoners in fear of him.

Stop imagining that the 'real killer is out there'. Misskelley could not have made it plainer.

What kind of sadist tortures innocent dogs?
 
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DragonLady said:
I agree that's pretty gruesome, but it sounds like he probably killed the dog with the first blow to the head -if any of it is true at all. Is there any actual, direct evidence to support this story?

But, now where's the rest of it? You said:



It doesn't sound like he intended anyone to eat meat from the thighs of the sick dog he was stomping on.
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No, it was another dog. A witness described how the teens had discovered a way of cooking them.

I bet you don't even believe three eight-year old boys were murdered.
 
Vixen said:
No, it was another dog. A witness described how the teens had discovered a way of cooking them.

I bet you don't even believe three eight-year old boys were murdered.
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Oh, now they were cooking them...any evidence of that, by any chance?

I believe you're convinced these boys are guilty just because they claim to be Satanists. I think if we took that away from the equation, you'd be a little bit more skeptical.

But you've accepted their religion as a motive, and built the case for the means and opportunity based on the opinions of others who have done the same.

You're certainly not alone. The Satanic panic was rampant at the time, and has never really gone away.

As has been stated several times in this thread, we'll never really know for sure. But there are lessons to be learned here, and I hope everyone -especially those in law enforcement and the justice departments- is paying attention and taking notes so that next time, there is more attention paid to the physical evidence, and less to the words of teenage boys who may just be spouting off because they think it's all a lark.
 
Vixen said:
Are you sure about that? Jason Baldwin's own cousin, Joe Bartoush made the following statement. The incident is said to have occurred eight months before the murders, in 1992:
This statement is backed up by Timothy Blaine Hodge who writes:
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Both of whom had grudges against him, at the behest of a police officer who had already determined he was going to find some reason to lock Echols up regardless of actual facts, and provided details that were either contradictory, unverifiable, or were contradicted by the available evidence, as noted in the very source you linked to. No actual evidence of said killing.

Not once in the documents did Echols ever admit to killing anything, only to finding dead animals. He was also mentally ill, and unlike whatever the religious fundamentalist propaganda you're working from wants us to think, mental illness is not evidence of demon possession.

The rest of that site is a whole lot of egregious cherry picking, misrepresentation, and generally unsupported assertions.

Seriously, satanic panic ended a couple decades ago, try to join the rest of us in this millennium.

You seem to have a particularly strong need to prove Echols a murderous devil worhipper. Did he offend you in some way, or is it that you just can't let go of the satanic panic?
 
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Re Satanic Panic:

In 1984 in Memphis, there was this Georgian Hills Day Care Satanic Worship porno thing that mIrrored the McMartin Daycare Center stories in California almost exactly.

I'm not even going over it again. Read about the McMartin Daycare Center Satanic Ritual thing, and you'll see exactly what was going on in Memphis at the same time.

That was about 10 years before the internet was opened to the world, so details are very hard to find.
 
DragonLady said:
Oh, now they were cooking them...any evidence of that, by any chance?

I believe you're convinced these boys are guilty just because they claim to be Satanists. I think if we took that away from the equation, you'd be a little bit more skeptical.

But you've accepted their religion as a motive, and built the case for the means and opportunity based on the opinions of others who have done the same.

You're certainly not alone. The Satanic panic was rampant at the time, and has never really gone away.

As has been stated several times in this thread, we'll never really know for sure. But there are lessons to be learned here, and I hope everyone -especially those in law enforcement and the justice departments- is paying attention and taking notes so that next time, there is more attention paid to the physical evidence, and less to the words of teenage boys who may just be spouting off because they think it's all a lark.
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No, that is nonsense. You are putting words in my mouth. Echols, by his own account, is an avid satanist. An acquaintance of Misskelley wrote to the police to say Misskelley had confessed the crime to him and claimed Echols said a prayer, before throwing the boys into the ditch. There are several witnesses who attest to both Baldwin and Echols striving to suck blood wherever they saw it. One said Echols at one cult meeting held forth with the Wicked One in a quasi parody of a Christian service.

As Toni Morrison once said, 'When someone shows you who they are, believe them. The first time.'
 
luchog said:
Both of whom had grudges against him, at the behest of a police officer who had already determined he was going to find some reason to lock Echols up regardless of actual facts, and provided details that were either contradictory, unverifiable, or were contradicted by the available evidence, as noted in the very source you linked to. No actual evidence of said killing.

Not once in the documents did Echols ever admit to killing anything, only to finding dead animals. He was also mentally ill, and unlike whatever the religious fundamentalist propaganda you're working from wants us to think, mental illness is not evidence of demon possession.

The rest of that site is a whole lot of egregious cherry picking, misrepresentation, and generally unsupported assertions.

Seriously, satanic panic ended a couple decades ago, try to join the rest of us in this millennium.

You seem to have a particularly strong need to prove Echols a murderous devil worhipper. Did he offend you in some way, or is it that you just can't let go of the satanic panic?
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He is a proud Aleister Crowley follower satanist, who counts Marilyn Manson amongst his fans. You're denying these people exist even though they rub your faces in it.

True, there is a big difference between someone who digs Black Sabbath and the whole metal scene and someone who takes the dark side seriously.

When I heard Jimmy Page of Led Zeppelin was a satanist, I had trouble believing the guy was serious. But he was and is.

You only have to look at the murder and what was done to the victims to understand that the perps want you to know it was an act of evil abomination.
 
John Jones said:
Re Satanic Panic:

In 1984 in Memphis, there was this Georgian Hills Day Care Satanic Worship porno thing that mIrrored the McMartin Daycare Center stories in California almost exactly.

I'm not even going over it again. Read about the McMartin Daycare Center Satanic Ritual thing, and you'll see exactly what was going on in Memphis at the same time.

That was about 10 years before the internet was opened to the world, so details are very hard to find.
Click to expand...

So people like Charles Manson and Ramirez were just joking.
 
Strawberry said:
Actively fake - like all that talk of urine in the victims stomachs.
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Looks like you have incomplete facts. Seems the makers of that documentary all you guys rave about omitted to tell you about the animal cruelty and the fact of Echols' knowledge of the crime scene.

The earliest mention of urine in the boys' stomachs is in a letter to the Arkansas Crime Lab from Gitchell on 5/26/93:
(9) Dr. Peretti mentioned finding urine in the stomach of two boys and requested from us water samples.
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https://www.reddit.com/r/Unresolved...at_is_some_compelling_evidence_that_the_west/

It seems the contents of the stomach decayed and and couldn't be used as evidence.

I expect you are now going to claim Dr Peretti told Echols about the urine in the stomach, which is how he knew to mention it, before the pathologist had even written up their report.

I find it interesting the way you bend over backwards looking for excuses, explanations and rationales for any evidence, including claiming Misskelley's numerous confessions aren't really confessions, that he was 'coerced by the police' and was too unintelligent to know what he was saying.

The reality is, Misskelley's own father gave his written consent for Misskelley to make a statement and not even Misskelley's own attorney could get him to stop confessing. He confessed within two hours. So much for the claim 'oh the police must have tortured him for 53 hours and beat him up and coached him.'


Wake up! The murders are solved already.
 
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Vixen said:
Looks like you have incomplete facts. Seems the makers of that documentary all you guys rave about omitted to tell you about the animal cruelty and the fact of Echols' knowledge of the crime scene.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Unresolved...at_is_some_compelling_evidence_that_the_west/

It seems the contents of the stomach decayed and and couldn't be used as evidence.

I expect you are now going to claim Dr Peretti told Echols about the urine in the stomach, which is how he knew to mention it, before the pathologist had even written up their report.

I find it interesting the way you bend over backwards looking for excuses, explanations and rationales for any evidence, including claiming Misskelley's numerous confessions aren't really confessions, that he was 'coerced by the police' and was too unintelligent to know what he was saying.

The reality is, Misskelley's own father gave his written consent for Misskelley to make a statement and not even Misskelley's own attorney could get him to stop confessing. He confessed within two hours. So much for the claim 'oh the police must have tortured him for 53 hours and beat him up and coached him.'


Wake up! The murders are solved already.
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Reddit? This is a case where all the necessary primary source documents are posted online in one huge database, and you go to reddit? Get real.

And I already know about Gitchell's letter on the 26th, what I don't know is any evidence that the urine he refers to actually existed. Show us some instead of making things up.
 
I was interested to see if Vixen could produce a similar performance on this case as she has turned in on the Knox/Sollecito case. She can. Well done her.
 
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