Merged US may close Cuba Embassy over 'health attacks'

[Skeptic Ginger]

When I write that "women seem to be much more prone to mass hysteria", my impression is based on Wikipedia's list of Notable cases.

Yes, why shouldn't I?! In an earlier post I referred to another exception, one from the list, the San Diego (1988) case where the "US Navy evacuated 600 men (!) from barracks."

Yes, probably. I never said or implied that it doesn't.

I assure you Wiki's sample is not representative of anything more than cases which made the news or history books.

It's off topic and complicated. Start a new thread if you want to discuss your gender assumptions.

I can't easily find out the gender of the diplomats affected, only that at least one of them was referred to as 'he'.

 

[dann]

We really do not have enough information to know how this could play out between genders. We don't know how the first case was presented, how the suggestion of an'external' attack came about, how seriously staff perceived it was being handled by 'authorities', or how the information(rumor?) was spread between ranks and social circles.

Of the hundreds of people who work at the Embassy, there have been no personal interviews that might tell us how it played out at the 'watercooler' since late last year.

But we do know how it’s being handled now. The alleged ”attacks” are being treated as facts:

The United States is considering closing its embassy in Cuba for a strange and scary reason: the unexplained injuries that dozens of American diplomats suffered after potentially being hit by some sort of secret sonic weapon.
(…)
Tom Cotton (R-AR) and Marco Rubio (R-FL), wrote a letter to the secretary imploring him to expel Cuban diplomats from the US. If Cuba doesn’t figure out who or what was behind the attacks, the legislators said that America should close the Havana embassy.

… and as such already had diplomatic repercussions:

The US already expelled two Cuban diplomats in May because of the incidents.

https://www.vox.com/world/2017/9/18/16327080/cuba-tillerson-embassy-attack-diplomats-sonic-weapon

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Sorry, but Trump is a well known CTer. That his admin is sadly using this incident for political gain is not evidence the weapon and injuries are real.

 

[dann]

No, of course not. My point here is that to the people afflicted by the alleged attacks, it will seem to confirm their delusions.

Some responses by authorities to MPI are not appropriate. Intense media coverage seems to exacerbate outbreaks. Once it is determined that the illness is psychogenic, it should not be given credence by authorities. For example, in the Singapore factory case study, calling in a medicine man to perform an exorcism seemed to perpetuate the outbreak
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_p...e_to_outbreaks

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

No, of course not. My point here is that to the people afflicted by the alleged attacks, it will seem to confirm their delusions.

Yes, we are in agreement then. Between the news media and our CT believing POTUS you can safely add this one to the never ending CTs that will live on forever.

 

[dann]

The figure I heard was 85 people effected.

Probably not that many:

The US State Department claims that the “attacks” started in autumn 2016 and ended in April this year and had affected at least 16 individuals.
https://www.theguardian.com/science...on-us-diplomats-in-cuba-have-been-carried-out

 

[dann]

Some years ago I read about the East German "Stasi" using low frequency "infrasonic" sound waves to disturb foreign diplomats and people they suspected of being spies. (I don't have a reference, sorry)

Some of those stories are probably very alternative 'facts':

In the 1960s, the Soviet Union microwaved US diplomats in Moscow at low levels, triggering an episode of Cold War buffoonery in the form of a secret health study to see if “microwave mind control weapons” were at work on the unknowing US diplomats.

The study was headed by a scientist fired years later for “general dishonesty,” according to Weinberger’s book. And it was reliant on blood samples taken by a State Department doctor later convicted of impregnating dozens of his patients without their knowledge of him being their sperm donor at a Virginia fertility clinic.

The secrecy that accompanied the Moscow microwave investigation then mirrors the lack of information about the Cuban embassy outbreak now, she added, making the situation needlessly murky.

“It turns out the Russians were just using the microwaves to turn bugging devices on and off,” Weinberger said. The mysterious microwaves, finals records showed, were too low-intensity to hurt anyone.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/danvergano/silent-sonic-secret?utm_term=.nvODb1Jl7#.llEy4ZpYN

By the way, the same article also considers that the explanation in the case of the US diplomats in Cuba may be mass hysteria or psychogenic illness:

“Until we know more, the possibility of mass hysteria is certainly in play,” New Zealand sociologist Robert Bartholomew, author of Outbreak! The Encyclopedia of Extraordinary Social Behavior, told BuzzFeed News. Many documented mass hysteria cases involve so-called sick buildings that turn out to be psychological outbreaks, he noted.
“Based on the scant information that has been disclosed, it is very possible that this cluster is psychogenic in nature, as most of the symptoms are headaches and dizziness, while the most serious case is described as ‘mild traumatic brain injury’, whatever the hell that means, and could be entirely unrelated.”

 

[Steve]

My thoughts:

The US no doubt has intelligence experts who could investigate this.
Why wasn't it brought to their attention to investigate before going public and letting the perpetrators know that they were on to it? If the method was unknown the investigation could have provided useful info to US intelligence.

It was stated above that the problem was worse when people were in bed and eased when they got up. If it was that directional why didn't they just move their beds to a different part of the room. Fascinating that the perpetrators seemed to know exactly where the beds were located.

I understood that the Cuban government welcomed the re-establishment of connections with the US. Why would they want to cause this disruption?
[conspiracy theory] The US is doing this to their own embassy to give Trump a reason to close the embassy. He hates commies! [/conspiracy theory].

 

[dann]

My thoughts:

The US no doubt has intelligence experts who could investigate this.

They most certainly do, and they most certainly did!

Why wasn't it brought to their attention to investigate before going public and letting the perpetrators know that they were on to it?

I bet that it was and that they did, but apparently they found nothing at all.

If the method was unknown the investigation could have provided useful info to US intelligence.

Unless the Cubans, who are famous for their cutting edge inventions in the field of super sonic surveillance technology, have come up with something utterly untraceable, the super stealth listening concussioner of the new millennium, which … I'm obviously kidding!

It was stated above that the problem was worse when people were in bed and eased when they got up. If it was that directional why didn't they just move their beds to a different part of the room.

They tried to do so, but couldn't get hold of a couple of super professional European dowsers specializing in detecting co-called Earth Rays, which are known to cause symptoms similar to the ones exhibited by the US diplomats.

Fascinating that the perpetrators seemed to know exactly where the beds were located.

No, not really. That would have been the easiest part of the whole clandestine operation.

I understood that the Cuban government welcomed the re-establishment of connections with the US. Why would they want to cause this disruption?

We commies are devious creatures! We work in mysterious ways!

[conspiracy theory] The US is doing this to their own embassy to give Trump a reason to close the embassy. He hates commies! [/conspiracy theory].

Don't all Americans hate commies?! But in this case: The conspiracy would require too many conspirators to work: all the people who had to come down with these weird afflictions! Also, if somebody had actually planned the whole thing, with a minimum of effort they would have been able to come up with much more consistent symptoms than the ones mentioned in this case, which are all over the place (=psychogenic).

 

[Steve]

They most certainly do, and they most certainly did!

I bet that it was and that they did, but apparently they found nothing at all.

Unless the Cubans, who are famous for their cutting edge inventions in the field of super sonic surveillance technology, have come up with something utterly untraceable, the super stealth listening concussioner of the new millennium, which … I'm obviously kidding!

They tried to do so, but couldn't get hold of a couple of super professional European dowsers specializing in detecting co-called Earth Rays, which are known to cause symptoms similar to the ones exhibited by the US diplomats.

No, not really. That would have been the easiest part of the whole clandestine operation.

We commies are devious creatures! We work in mysterious ways!

Don't all Americans hate commies?! But in this case: The conspiracy would require too many conspirators to work: all the people who had to come down with these weird afflictions! Also, if somebody had actually planned the whole thing, with a minimum of effort they would have been able to come up with much more consistent symptoms than the ones mentioned in this case, which are all over the place (=psychogenic).

Wow!!!!!! It's like you are reading my mind!!!!!! Do you have some sort of super secret mind-reading technology?? I bet the Cubans would pay a fortune for it!!!!!!!

(credit where it is due - exclamation marks!!!!! graciously provided by Fuelair. Thank you.)

 

[dann]

Exactly. How does a doctor verify 'hearing loss' independent of the patients reporting?

Normal hearing tests use tones where the patient raises their hand when they can hear it. To really determine it, they'd have to look at how the brain itself responds to sound, independent of what the person says they can/cannot hear.

It just occurred to me why it would be difficult to fake a test:

I already mentioned my experience when I was being drafted for the Danish army and examined by the medical board, and they seemed to be convinced of my deficient hearing. You are right about the hearing tests requiring the cooperation of the test subject. They play sounds at different frequencies, and they can also turn the volume up and down. At one point the doctor who was testing me looked suspicious, and I could see that at some of the frequencies he was obviously turning the volume up to the maximum level of the apparatus, and I still couldn't hear a damn thing.
I think that faking deafness at certain frequencies would require perfect pitch as well as memory: You would have to be able to recognize and remember the exact frequencies where you pretend to be deaf, and you would also have to be a very good actor when the volume is turned up above the pain threshold and you pretend that it doesn't bother you!
At the time, I was annoyed that I wasn't deemed unfit as cannon fodder, and I think that I considered if I ought to have faked being deafer than I actually was in order to be rejected by the medical board, but I don't think that I would have been able to pull it off.

 

[dann]

When I started this thread, I used the headline: "Alien Attack? Mass Hysteria? Conspiracy?", which some people objected to:

Your headline belongs in the bin.

You offer three choices:

Alien attack is absurd. Mass hysteria among trained diplomats is unlikely. So it's probably conspiracy rather than either of the other two.

However, in spite of the fact that 1) medical doctors can't reach a conclusion about what caused the alleged health damages, 2) technical experts are also baffled, US officials are still convinced (!) that someone (!) targeted (!) the US diplomats in Cuba!
So this means that the 1) an outbreak of mass hysteria among American (and a couple of Canadian) diplomats stationed in Havana is now being used by conspiracy freaks working for the US government to come up with outlandish ideas, including that an alien attack!

Investigators haven't determined the cause of the incidents, but US officials told CNN they are convinced someone has targeted American diplomats in Havana with a sophisticated device never deployed before, at least not against US personnel.
(…)
But the physical symptoms that people exhibited varied greatly, preventing doctors consulted in the United States from reaching a conclusion about what caused the trauma, two US officials said.
US government technical experts were also baffled. Some affected diplomats had lines of sight to the street in their homes, while others had shrubbery and walls that blocked views of their homes. Some heard loud sounds when the incidents took place, while others heard nothing.
(…)
"It is increasingly apparent the Cubans are involved in some way," a senior US official said. "The Cubans are all over our people while they are down there. If it was a few attacks, you could say that maybe it was the Russians or Iranians screwing with us, but when it happens so many times, especially in the same hotel, it is hard for us believe someone can get close enough to our people so many times. Unless these are beams from outer space."
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/09/23/politics/cuba-sonic-attack/index.html

The beams from outer space may just be irony for the time being, but the idea would be less harmful to diplomatic relations between the USA and Cuba than the current conspiracy theory that may lead to the withdrawal of US diplomats from the embassy in Havana.

 

[Andy_Ross]

BBC Breaking

The US is to pull most of its staff from its embassy in Cuba after they suffered "sonic attacks", American media report.

The US is withdrawing about 60% of its embassy staff in response to attacks on diplomats, senior unnamed officials were quoted as saying.

It is also warning Americans not to visit the country because some attacks occurred in hotels, the sources say.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41446697

 

[The Don]

BBC Breaking

The US is to pull most of its staff from its embassy in Cuba after they suffered "sonic attacks", American media report.

The US is withdrawing about 60% of its embassy staff in response to attacks on diplomats, senior unnamed officials were quoted as saying.

It is also warning Americans not to visit the country because some attacks occurred in hotels, the sources say.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41446697

If it wasn't happening I'd have said that it sounds crazy and an excuse to pull out diplomats and to cripple tourism. Because it's happening, that couldn't be the case and it really must be happening

 

[dann]

The same thing is now reported in the Washington Post:
Even though “clues about the circumstances of the incidents seem to make any explanation scientifically implausible,” “the U.S. now has determined there were “specific attacks” on American personnel in Cuba,” and the “United States is warning Americans against visiting Cuba and ordering more than half of its Havana embassy personnel to leave the island, senior officials said Friday.”
The Washington Post, Sep. 29, 2017

PS "determined"!!!

 

[casebro]

Did you expect the government investigators to tell us EVERYTHING?

 

[mgidm86]

To medical investigators’ dismay, the symptoms in the attacks vary widely from person to person. In addition to hearing loss and concussions, some experienced nausea, headaches and ear-ringing, and The Associated Press has reported some now suffer from problems with concentration and common word recall.

This whole thing sounds like bull excrement to me.

Some U.S. diplomats reported hearing loud noises or feeling vibrations when the incidents occurred, but others heard and felt nothing yet reported symptoms later. In some cases, the effects were narrowly confined, with victims able to walk “in” and “out” of blaring noises audible in only certain rooms or parts of rooms, the AP has reported

Sound familiar? I believe we've heard this kind of crap before in the paranormal forum. One hundred percent BS. Send in the Ghost Hunters! It's a loose A/C vent!

 

[Andy_Ross]

This whole thing sounds like bull excrement to me.



Sound familiar? I believe we've heard this kind of crap before in the paranormal forum. One hundred percent BS. Send in the Ghost Hunters! It's a loose A/C vent!

It's the Scoleri Brothers!

 

[dann]

Did you expect the government investigators to tell us EVERYTHING?

No, I expect nothing but lies from the government, even when its investigators find nothing to back up the lies. But then I've heard a number of similar lies over the years: about imaginary attacks, and about actual terrorists who enjoy the support of the US:
Luis Posada Carriles
Orlando Bosch

 

[Sherkeu]

The same thing is now reported in the Washington Post:
Even though “clues about the circumstances of the incidents seem to make any explanation scientifically implausible,” “the U.S. now has determined there were “specific attacks” on American personnel in Cuba,” and the “United States is warning Americans against visiting Cuba and ordering more than half of its Havana embassy personnel to leave the island, senior officials said Friday.”
The Washington Post, Sep. 29, 2017

PS "determined"!!!

From the same article comes the answer to all this:

“The reduction in diplomatic presence was made to ensure the safety of our personnel,” said one official. “We maintain diplomatic relations with Cuba, and our work in Cuba will be guided by national security and foreign policy goals of the United States.”

There is now about $300M in American tourist dollars to Cuba on the table in addition to more millions in investment. (Total tourism of $2B likely affected as well)

Trump already said he thought Obama gave up to much too soon without more changes in Cuba. This is an opportune way to indicate we are threatening to shut those open doors to get it all back into negotiations. Trump can say "Look, the Obama deal was bad, but my new agreement is much better for America. I make the best deals. Believe me."

But what specifically will Cuba need to do? The younger Castro has already made significant changes in the direction we wanted and American business was set to do well.