Merged US may close Cuba Embassy over 'health attacks'

[Skeptic Ginger]

That's a more elaborate conspiracy theory than we would expect even from the White House. But here's the question: Why would FSOs who support the Cuba thaw give the incoming administration a reason to shut down the embassy by blaming the Cuban government for something it didn't do? How does that advance their goals?

It's not a CT that discord at work increases reported injuries and worker's comp claims. It is a very common pattern.

Four reasons for spikes in WC claims

It's copy protected so you'll have to give it a glance but essentially the 3 of the 4 reasons have to do with things that make people unhappy workers. The fourth is new equipment which can increase injuries as people need to learn new things, but it also represents the stress of change.

Versions of the 3 of 4 reasons are all present in the current State Department. Add in change and you have all 4.

More of the same:

“Develop a fair, honest workplace culture,” Adelson says. “Unhappy and bitter people who don’t value their jobs are going to file claims and take them all the way. People who respect their employers and workplaces will want to get back to work quickly.”

It's a well known occupational medicine fact.

 

[Sherkeu]

That's a more elaborate conspiracy theory than we would expect even from the White House. But here's the question: Why would FSOs who support the Cuba thaw give the incoming administration a reason to shut down the embassy by blaming the Cuban government for something it didn't do? How does that advance their goals?

I do not believe this is some intentional plan. No conspiracy needed. I'm simply laying out the psychological stressors surrounding Embassy staff that could lead to this series of events.

 

[dann]

Governments do have sonic weapons. But they're not secret.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Range_Acoustic_Device

That's not a weapon intended to injure, it's not secret and it's a red herring in this discussion. It's a fancy loudspeaker to drive crowds to disperse.

Actually, it seems to be a long-distance communication device: Telling people to disperse, rather than driving them to do so:

The Long Range Acoustic Device (LRAD) is an acoustic hailing (!) device developed by LRAD Corporation to send messages and warning tones over longer distances or at higher volume than normal loudspeakers. LRAD systems are used for long range communications (!) in a variety of applications including as a means of non-lethal, non-kinetic crowd control. They have been called (!) "sonic weapons."
(from the Wikipedia article, the (!) are mine, dann)

 

[Foolmewunz]

Just how many Americans (US citizens for you pedants) are on staff at a small embassy? I was under the impression that we might have about forty or fifty of them here (in the main Embassy in Bangkok) and the rest are local staff. In a country such as Cuba, which is considered somewhat hostile, wouldn't there be even a smaller number? The figure I heard was 85 people effected. Are these all supposed to be US Citizen Consulate Staff?

 

[Planigale]

Just how many Americans (US citizens for you pedants) are on staff at a small embassy? I was under the impression that we might have about forty or fifty of them here (in the main Embassy in Bangkok) and the rest are local staff. In a country such as Cuba, which is considered somewhat hostile, wouldn't there be even a smaller number? The figure I heard was 85 people effected. Are these all supposed to be US Citizen Consulate Staff?

Look at the number of 'diplomats' the US has in Russia, and vice versa. You need to keep an eye on your enemies not your friends.

 

[Planigale]

It is likely that there is more than one explanation for the symptoms. Many of the symptoms would fit with someone buying cheap (illegal) rum and having a party. Toxic alcohols e.g. methanol would cause many of the symptoms. An unknown toxin might even be involved as seen in the toxic oil outbreak in Spain.

An interesting question might be how many cubans have similar symptoms.

 

[dann]

It is likely that there is more than one explanation for the symptoms. Many of the symptoms would fit with someone buying cheap (illegal) rum and having a party. Toxic alcohols e.g. methanol would cause many of the symptoms. An unknown toxin might even be involved as seen in the toxic oil outbreak in Spain.

An interesting question might be how many cubans have similar symptoms.

I can't imagine US diplomats having to resort to drinking cheap, illegal rum. Rum in Cuba is cheap and excellent - and in Havana usually Havana Club 3 Años (for mixing, for instance when making mojitos or Cuba libres (some Cuban waiters get offended if you call it rum & coke)) or 7 Años, but top diplomats might prefer Selección De Maestro.
I've never encountered cheap, illegal rum in Cuba, but legal rum may give you a headache if you drink enough of it. And, of course, it might be the reason why you forgot what hit you when you got that mild concussion.

 

[dann]

Just how many Americans (US citizens for you pedants) are on staff at a small embassy?

It's hard to tell. It's a pretty big building, not a small embassy. And the number of diplomats appear to be unlimited!

And she will insist that there must be no limitation on the number of U. S. diplomats in Cuba. Also, Ms. Jacobson will demand that Cubans have ...
http://cubaninsider.blogspot.dk/2015/01/

Roberta S. Jacobson
Still, I don't think that the Cubans found an alternative way of limiting their number ...

 

[Sherkeu]

It's hard to tell. It's a pretty big building, not a small embassy. And the number of diplomats appear to be unlimited!

Roberta S. Jacobson
Still, I don't think that the Cubans found an alternative way of limiting their number ...

I have also tried to find this without success!

At the opening in 2015 the staff numbers given were the diplomats already there under the "US Interests" section that was technically with the Swiss Embassy.

51 Americans and 300 Cubans worked there at the time. I cannot find out how many were added after that. Their workload surely increased significantly with the new influx Americans able to travel and do business there.

Reports also do not say how many of the 'affected' were actual staff and how many were family members in the same home.

There are quite a few facts missing.

 

[dann]

The few US Americans I met in Cuba prior to 2015 were usually doing what they could to avoid detection by US authorities, so I think that the major part of the 51 Americans working for the US Interest Section were probably involved with the USAID’s pyramideo scheme or similar attempts at subversion.

 

[dann]

Can anybody explain how a listening device could have these side effects?

There are many theories about what actually happened — and why.
One of them is that Cuban intelligence officials wanted to listen in on President Donald Trump’s transition plans for Cuba and learn what they could about the new White House.
https://www.vox.com/world/2017/9/18/16327080/cuba-tillerson-embassy-attack-diplomats-sonic-weapon

And why would they expect "Trump's transition plans for Cuba" to be revealed by listening in on the beds rather than the offices of US diplomats?!

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

It is likely that there is more than one explanation for the symptoms. Many of the symptoms would fit with someone buying cheap (illegal) rum and having a party. Toxic alcohols e.g. methanol would cause many of the symptoms. An unknown toxin might even be involved as seen in the toxic oil outbreak in Spain.

An interesting question might be how many cubans have similar symptoms.

One way to look at this is to consider how many symptoms one has every day: short dizzy spell, headache, itchy skin, scratchy throat, gas pain, joint pain, etc. This is normal and most of the time people pay no attention to these things. (There are actually a few studies on what, given all these common symptoms, triggers people to seek medical attention. But I digress.)

Now say that person hears about a secret sonic attack. Suddenly those everyday symptoms come to that person's attention. "OMG, I do have a headache and scratchy throat! Look at my skin, does that look normal?"

This is a common sequence of events for this kind of hysteria.

 

[dann]

(There are actually a few studies on what, given all these common symptoms, triggers people to seek medical attention. But I digress.)

So do I then, but I was wondering: Women appear to seek professional medical attention for their ailments much more frequently than men, at least in my country, so could that be the reason why women seem to be much more prone to mass hysteria (I don't know about mass psychogenic illness) than men? - with shrinking penis syndrome being one of the exceptions!

It also occurs to me that the way the case of the alleged sonic attack victims is handled right now will only serve to prolong the outbreak:

Some responses by authorities to MPI are not appropriate. Intense media coverage seems to exacerbate outbreaks. Once it is determined that the illness is psychogenic, it should not be given credence by authorities. For example, in the Singapore factory case study, calling in a medicine man to perform an exorcism seemed to perpetuate the outbreak
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_psychogenic_illness#Response_to_outbreaks

which is also what happened in Denmark with the HPV vaccine scare mentioned above.

 

[dann]

PS I just love the way that Wikipedia has made an article about shrinking penis syndrome gender neutral:

Koro is a culture-specific syndrome delusional disorder in which an individual (!) has an overpowering belief that one's (!) genitalia are retracting and will disappear, despite the lack of any true longstanding changes to the genitals.

 

[calebprime]

Meh. Not enough solid info. I'm inclined to believe that bugging devices might be installed in the embassy like they were in the U.S. embassy in Moscow. But there's no reason a bugging device should cause any kind of injury.

There was a quote about reports of "grinding noises" at night on NPR this morning, but that's something different.

Alarm systems sometimes emit high frequency sounds (just north of 20k) that can be heard by some people -- they feel like an uncomfortable nearly inaudible pressure. I used to be one of them, in my 20's and 30's, but no longer. My hearing tops out at 12k. But that could easily be detected and recorded and fixed.

The U.S. used noise as a harassment technique -- both in interrogations and when they went after Noriega in Panama. But again, a red herring, unless the fiendish Cubans are trying to keep our diplomats up with the sound of garbage disposals, or something. Makes no sense.

If the U.S. people were seriously concerned, it seems trivial for them to call in a technology expert with some recording devices to witness the "attacks". But that didn't happen, or we'd have solid explanations.

It's bizarre that we have senior officials commenting about this without anyone knowing what they're talking about, apparently. eta: Ok, maybe not so bizarre any more. Par.

As someone who experiences sound very vividly -- as something very solid and real and understandable -- this case intrigues and frustrates me. I'm pretty curious how it will all turn out: Probably it will just fade away without us finding out what really happened.

 

[dann]

Alarm systems sometimes emit high frequency sounds (just north of 20k) that can be heard by some people -- they feel like an uncomfortable nearly inaudible pressure. I used to be one of them, in my 20's and 30's, but no longer. My hearing tops out at 12k. But that could easily be detected and recorded and fixed.

I think that there was a case in Denmark a couple of years ago when the owner of a grocery store got fed up with teenagers hanging out outside. He allegedly used high-frequency sounds to disperse them, sounds that wouldn't bother his older customers because they couldn't hear them. This appears to be something similar: "to drive away loiterers." Or rather: to drive away young loiterers!

If the U.S. people were seriously concerned, it seems trivial for them to call in a technology expert with some recording devices to witness the "attacks". But that didn't happen, or we'd have solid explanations.

It's bizarre that we have senior officials commenting about this without anyone knowing what they're talking about, apparently. eta: Ok, maybe not so bizarre any more. Par.

My point exactly!

As someone who experiences sound very vividly -- as something very solid and real and understandable -- this case intrigues and frustrates me. I'm pretty curious how it will all turn out: Probably it will just fade away without us finding out what really happened.

By now, I think that the people afflicted by this are a very mixed group: Some of them have actual physical symptoms (loss of hearing), which they (falsely) attribute to these X sounds, others have heard about the symptoms and have become convinced that they have them too. Unlike theprestige, I think that people in the spying business (and, yes, I do know that some diplomats are simply diplomats!) are probably more prone to paranoia and to believing that "the enemy" is out to get them, which might make them interpret any bodily symptoms accordingly. (This could be turned into a good episode of The Americans.)
And for Marco Rubio and his ilk, it's a welcome excuse for closing down the US embassy in Havana.

 

[dann]

PS Try listening to the Mosquito Audio Demo. Even without my hearing aid, I can still hear not only what "Everyone Can Hear", but to my amazement also "60 Younger Can Hear", but with the others, I hear absolutely nothing!
I'm gonna get me one of those! But who cares about teenagers and millenials? As a high-school teacher I'm pretty tolerant as far as young people are concerned, so I guess I'm gonna get me one of those targeted against people in their forties! Those bloody Gen X'ers! Can't stand 'em!

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

So do I then, but I was wondering: Women appear to seek professional medical attention for their ailments much more frequently than men, at least in my country, so could that be the reason why women seem to be much more prone to mass hysteria (I don't know about mass psychogenic illness) than men? - with shrinking penis syndrome being one of the exceptions!

Off topic or we could discuss your assumptions this affects more women than men while you cite a case that affects men. Also, when one seeks medical care has a significant cultural aspect to it.

It also occurs to me that the way the case of the alleged sonic attack victims is handled right now will only serve to prolong the outbreak:

which is also what happened in Denmark with the HPV vaccine scare mentioned above.

Most definitely but then it's what would one expect with this ignorant administration.

 

[dann]

Off topic or we could discuss your assumptions this affects more women than men …

When I write that "women seem to be much more prone to mass hysteria", my impression is based on Wikipedia's list of Notable cases.

… while you cite a case that affects men.

Yes, why shouldn't I?! In an earlier post I referred to another exception, one from the list, the San Diego (1988) case where the "US Navy evacuated 600 men (!) from barracks."

Also, when one seeks medical care has a significant cultural aspect to it.

Yes, probably. I never said or implied that it doesn't.

 

[Sherkeu]

We really do not have enough information to know how this could play out between genders. We don't know how the first case was presented, how the suggestion of an'external' attack came about, how seriously staff perceived it was being handled by 'authorities', or how the information(rumor?) was spread between ranks and social circles.

Of the hundreds of people who work at the Embassy, there have been no personal interviews that might tell us how it played out at the 'watercooler' since late last year.