The behaviour of US police officers

[Nessie]

That someone is posting on a thread, asking for advice on how not to get shot by the police during a routine traffic stop, is evidence that the behaviour of the police in the USA is not what should be expected of a police officer.

I hate referring to those people in uniform as cops or police because that is not how they work.

To me a police officer is someone who has signed up to take risks to themselves so as to preserve the lives of others. Their duty is to detect and arrest suspect criminals so that they should be taken to court and justice served. They are there to calm situations down and preserve the peace. They are there to make good people feel safe and bad people worry they will be caught and convicted. In the UK those duties are enshrined in the law and form the basis of how they are trained.

It has been made abundantly clear by many that in the USA, the police have no duty to protect the public (I believe that may even be backed by law). They are not expected to take risks. It is fine for them to shoot to kill and not arrest. The will inflame situations, make them much worse and think there is no place for patient talking down of violent incidents. They make good people feel scared. They make bad people react with extreme violence back at them because they do not realise the tough guy act causes others to act tough back. The makes many US police no different from vigilante thugs dishing out summary justice.

Why do so many on this forum keep on defending the behaviour of their police and how they are policed?

 

[zooterkin]

British policing is founded on the principles laid down by Sir Robert Peel. I don't know what American policing is based on (I note the USA is not one of the countries listed on that page).

The nine principles were as follows:

1. To prevent crime and disorder, as an alternative to their repression by military force and severity of legal punishment.
2. To recognise always that the power of the police to fulfil their functions and duties is dependent on public approval of their existence, actions and behaviour, and on their ability to secure and maintain public respect.
3. To recognise always that to secure and maintain the respect and approval of the public means also the securing of the willing co-operation of the public in the task of securing observance of laws.
4. To recognise always that the extent to which the co-operation of the public can be secured diminishes proportionately the necessity of the use of physical force and compulsion for achieving police objectives.
5. To seek and preserve public favour, not by pandering to public opinion, but by constantly demonstrating absolutely impartial service to law, in complete independence of policy, and without regard to the justice or injustice of the substance of individual laws, by ready offering of individual service and friendship to all members of the public without regard to their wealth or social standing, by ready exercise of courtesy and friendly good humour, and by ready offering of individual sacrifice in protecting and preserving life.
6. To use physical force only when the exercise of persuasion, advice and warning is found to be insufficient to obtain public co-operation to an extent necessary to secure observance of law or to restore order, and to use only the minimum degree of physical force which is necessary on any particular occasion for achieving a police objective.
7. To maintain at all times a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and that the public are the police, the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.
8. To recognise always the need for strict adherence to police-executive functions, and to refrain from even seeming to usurp the powers of the judiciary, of avenging individuals or the State, and of authoritatively judging guilt and punishing the guilty.
9. To recognise always that the test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, and not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with them.

 

[applecorped]

*some US police officers.

 

[Nessie]

*some US police officers.

It could be many or even the majority. With newspapers now tracking the number of police shootings, but only the fatal ones, we have no idea how many Americans get shot by their own police and the circumstances.

 

[applecorped]

It could be far less than people think as well. There are a million police officers in the United States roughly and there were about a thousand fatal shootings in 2016.

Or 1%

 

[elgarak]

My (very few) encounters with US LEOs were friendly, polite and professional.

Then again, I am a white male speaking English fluently, so...

 

[Beerina]

What we need are real statistics to see how these things are trending over the years. Unfortunately, they do not exist. This is born of weak state politicians who don't wanna know (they'd be the ones collecting the data for each state, not the feds.)

What stats there are was laboriously assembled by journalists pouring over old newspaper records literally looking for news stories, and those have about as much confidence as that a prison will contain Lex Luthor.

 

[Nessie]

It could be far less than people think as well. There are a million police officers in the United States roughly and there were about a thousand fatal shootings in 2016.

Or 1%

Other important figures would be;

- how many have discharged their gun in that year?
- how many shots have they fired?
- how many hits and misses?
- how many wounded?

But we will not officially get those figures as there is clearly a massive cover-up to hide the problem. I do not meant a CT, I mean that each police force is not held to account and is not interested in tackling what they do not see as an issue.

 

[Nessie]

My (very few) encounters with US LEOs were friendly, polite and professional.

Then again, I am a white male speaking English fluently, so...

I presume also no alcohol, drugs, you were not carrying anything and you were not suspected of committing a crime.

 

[Beady]

It could be many or even the majority. With newspapers now tracking the number of police shootings, but only the fatal ones, we have no idea how many Americans get shot by their own police and the circumstances.

First, its news because it's news. That is, it's at least somewhat unusual. As the press here say, "If it bleeds, it leads."

Second, do you really, I mean really, believe that 200 million adult Americans, most of whom are armed (and better-armed than the police, in many cases - Google North Hollywood Fight) are so cowed by a few thousand cops, that they would tolerate the situation you describe?

Having said that, unjustified shootings occur much too often; just once would be much too often. What are the causes? I'm in no position to analyse, but it does appear that unconscious racism is a strong element, probably accompanied by insufficient training. No cop starts his shift with the intention of killing a citizen.

And I can tell you, based on my experience with the police, that the vast majority of American cops are more bothered by these shootings than is the average citizen. Not only are they just as shocked as the average person but, as a (Black) state police sergeant said to me, "It hurts; it's an actual physical pain."

This signature is intended to irritate people.

 

[Beady]

It could be far less than people think as well. There are a million police officers in the United States roughly and there were about a thousand fatal shootings in 2016.

Or 1%

Locally, the rate of unjustified police shootings is approx .025%, iirc.

What we need are real statistics to see how these things are trending over the years. Unfortunately, they do not exist. This is born of weak state politicians who don't wanna know (they'd be the ones collecting the data for each state, not the feds.)

What stats there are was laboriously assembled by journalists pouring over old newspaper records literally looking for news stories, and those have about as much confidence as that a prison will contain Lex Luthor.

Horsehocky. See below

Other important figures would be;

- how many have discharged their gun in that year?
- how many shots have they fired?
- how many hits and misses?
- how many wounded?

Don't forget to separate justified shootings from unjustified.

But we will not officially get those figures as there is clearly a massive cover-up to hide the problem. I do not meant a CT, I mean that each police force is not held to account and is not interested in tackling what they do not see as an issue.

That's The biggest crock yet, in this thread. Our local and state police are quite happy and proud to display their statistics, and they even explain how to verify them for yourself. Moreover, they *are* held to account, as can be found in the public records (and I do not mean the press).



This signature is intended to irritate people.

 

[Nessie]

....

Second, do you really, I mean really, believe that 200 million adult Americans, most of whom are armed (and better-armed than the police, in many cases - Google North Hollywood Fight) are so cowed by a few thousand cops, that they would tolerate the situation you describe?

....

Yes, 200 million Americans do tolerate the killings. It is not because they are cowed of the cops. It is because Americans are very tolerant of people shooting each other, period. It is the norm. It is also getting worse, as cops kill more and more people;

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/series/counted-us-police-killings

In 2016, it was 1093.

http://www.newsweek.com/how-many-americans-do-cops-kill-each-year-480712

"a comparison of just these 28 “complete” states should give us a true indication of the frequency of police killings over time, in at least half the country. What it shows is alarming and incredible: a steep and steady increase from 359 police killings in 2000 to 739 in 2015"

 

[Nessie]

....

Don't forget to separate justified shootings from unjustified.

.....

Indeed. The problem being, in the USA justified includes shootings that are unjustified everywhere else in the western world.

 

[Brainster]

It could be far less than people think as well. There are a million police officers in the United States roughly and there were about a thousand fatal shootings in 2016.

Or 1%

One thousand out of a million is 0.1%. Which makes your point about 10x more valid.

 

[Mumbles]

In Bmore, the standard police encounter consists of one-two cops walking up to some black guy minding his own business, flinging him around, cursing and possibly spewing racial slurs, possibly digging into their pockets or down their pants, and then leaving without so much as a "sorry."

They don't like their cops very much.

Luckily I live in a suburb, so I generally never see a cop, much to my relief.

 

[Brainster]

That someone is posting on a thread, asking for advice on how not to get shot by the police during a routine traffic stop, is evidence that the behaviour of the police in the USA is not what should be expected of a police officer.

Yes, that is startling, indeed. Just out of curiosity, how many times has this someone been shot? I mean, it must suck, seeing those flashing lights and then having the bullet pass through you, over and over again.

 

[Loss Leader]

Why do so many on this forum keep on defending the behaviour of their police and how they are policed?

This is a pretty terrible post as far as I, a New Yorker, am concerned. Police and firefighters who lived in my county rushed into the World Trade Center and died there.

Police are people who confront unknown situations every day, some of which may be violent. They have no idea when or how a situation might turn deadly.

It's true that police generally overestimate danger. And it's true that some may judge that danger based on the race, sex or religion of the person they stop. I am all in favor of increased training and standardized procedures for law enforcement. But there's a difference between wanting the police to get better and saying they are indefensible.

 

[The Big Dog]

Yes, 200 million Americans do tolerate the killings. It is not because they are cowed of the cops. It is because Americans are very tolerant of people shooting each other, period. It is the norm. It is also getting worse, as cops kill more and more people;

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/series/counted-us-police-killings

In 2016, it was 1093.

http://www.newsweek.com/how-many-americans-do-cops-kill-each-year-480712

"a comparison of just these 28 “complete” states should give us a true indication of the frequency of police killings over time, in at least half the country. What it shows is alarming and incredible: a steep and steady increase from 359 police killings in 2000 to 739 in 2015"

Cripes, did you not read the entire article including the part where they say the data is not particularly trustworthy and the for the period the data is complete, the trends are flat?

 

[Nessie]

Cripes, did you not read the entire article including the part where they say the data is not particularly trustworthy and the for the period the data is complete, the trends are flat?

Yes, which is why I highlighted where the data is considered complete and accurate. From 358 killings in 2000 to 1093 in 2016 is not a flat trend. The US population and number of police has not tripled in that time.

 

[SteveL]

First, its news because it's news. That is, it's at least somewhat unusual. As the press here say, "If it bleeds, it leads."

Second, do you really, I mean really, believe that 200 million adult Americans, most of whom are armed (and better-armed than the police, in many cases - Google North Hollywood Fight) are so cowed by a few thousand cops, that they would tolerate the situation you describe?

Having said that, unjustified shootings occur much too often; just once would be much too often. What are the causes? I'm in no position to analyse, but it does appear that unconscious racism is a strong element, probably accompanied by insufficient training. No cop starts his shift with the intention of killing a citizen.

And I can tell you, based on my experience with the police, that the vast majority of American cops are more bothered by these shootings than is the average citizen. Not only are they just as shocked as the average person but, as a (Black) state police sergeant said to me, "It hurts; it's an actual physical pain."

This signature is intended to irritate people.

I agree with you, Beady, and I'm glad to hear that at least some officers are making their feelings known.

I don't interact with LEO very often, so the only way I have to hear about 'good' cops is the media, and they're pretty silent about it.