Telepathy

[P.J. Denyer]

There's a substantial difference between the (notoriously inaccurate) task of recalling experiences in detail and the reliability with which our various senses perceive the experiences in the first place. They're quite distinct tasks. In any case, there's no need to invoke some hypothetical and still undefined extra sense since none is required to explain our present abilities and no rigorous search for extra abilities has found anything to require another explanation.

You beat me to it. I was about to illustrate the difference by extolling my uncanny ability to flawlessly enumerate every playing card in a shuffled deck if you only show them to me.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

We can't be entirely certain of anything, but the bolded stands out. You're giving yourself wiggle-room. Why would alien brains allow psi-powers while human brains don't? Are you opening the door to the existence of psi powers in possible non-humans? What about psi abilities present in possible advanced machine intelligences?

One reason is that aliens could (for a sufficiently wide definition of 'could') have evolved or engineered radio transceivers into their bodies that send and receive unvocalised thoughts. Human beings haven't.

 

[Jim_MDP]

Respect has and will always be extended where it is offered.

Offer helpful advice or not.

Volunteer or not.

Characterizations of me are unwelcome.

Welcome or not... I'll note you didn't say "mis-characterization".



"Put up or shut up"... "**** or get off the pot... etc...
Don't make a claim and then say "look it up yourself", then get upset when folks laugh at you.


There... there's your "helpful advice". HTH HAND.

 

[Fudbucker]

One reason is that aliens could (for a sufficiently wide definition of 'could') have evolved or engineered radio transceivers into their bodies that send and receive unvocalised thoughts. Human beings haven't.

Possible, but would you really consider that psi?

 

[RoboTimbo]

Possible, but would you really consider that psi?

Define "telepathy".

 

[Jim_MDP]

Define "telepathy".

I'm with Randi... I'll worry about that after someone merely demonstrates it. To the satisfaction of us "nonbelievers".

Shouldn't be hard at all if it's real.

 

[Fudbucker]

Define "telepathy".

You could define it two ways: reading someone's mind utilizing processes already known (e.g., radio); reading someone's mind utilizing processes not known.

I think the latter is what most people have in mind, not people with tiny radios in their heads.

 

[RoboTimbo]

I'm with Randi... I'll worry about that after someone merely demonstrates it. To the satisfaction of us "nonbelievers".

Shouldn't be hard at all if it's real.

Without a clear definition, there can't be agreement that it's been demonstrated. Not so much for terrestrial telepathy but for the aside into aliens having it. It should be pretty straight forward to define human telepathy - communication using some method other than our five senses. What if aliens have different senses?

It's silly speculation but telepathy is generally a silly topic. Might as well get some thought experiment mileage out of it.

 

[RoboTimbo]

You could define it two ways: reading someone's mind utilizing processes already known (e.g., radio); reading someone's mind utilizing processes not known.

I think the latter is what most people have in mind, not people with tiny radios in their heads.

The question was in the context of aliens and telepathy, not people.

 

[Fudbucker]

The question was in the context of aliens and telepathy, not people.

The definitions would fit anything:
Telepathy (a): X (where X could be humans or aliens) reading minds based on known mechanisms (e.g., radio)
Telepathy(b): X reading minds based on unknown mechanisms.

 

[RoboTimbo]

The definitions would fit anything:
Telepathy (a): X (where X could be humans or aliens) reading minds based on known mechanisms (e.g., radio)
Telepathy(b): X reading minds based on unknown mechanisms.

I would have to say that aliens won't have telepathy then. They will understand their own mechanisms of communication quite well even if we wouldn't.

 

[arthwollipot]

You could define it two ways: reading someone's mind utilizing processes already known (e.g., radio); reading someone's mind utilizing processes not known.

I think the latter is what most people have in mind, not people with tiny radios in their heads.

Thing is - and Darat mentioned this and you dismissed it - we actually do know an awful lot about the way the universe works. We know that there are only four fundamental ways in which particles can interact. Of the four, only two are capable of acting at greater than subatomic distances - gravity and electromagnetism. There are literally no other ways for particles (ie, stuff) to interact, and we know this for a fact. A century of experimentation and mathematical rigour have led us to this conclusion.

Furthermore, we know very precisely when and how these forces work. Very precisely indeed. For the electromagnetic force, we know how it operates more precisely than we have ever known anything else.

What you're proposing, though you don't even realise it, is the existence of some method for stuff to interact with other stuff that has previously gone unnoticed. Given the precision and accuracy with which we know the existing methods of stuff to interact, it is pretty much inconceivable that there exists another method that we have been unable to pin down with equal accuracy and precision.

We're very good at discovering how things work. That we haven't discovered yet how telepathy works - or even that telepathy works - very strongly suggests that there is no phenomenon there to discover.

The gap in our knowledge in which telepathy might be able to fit is extremely small.

 

[Loss Leader]

Time and date?

Number and suit? 10 cards...?

So, each place, with the correct number and suit will be counted as one right answer, or ALL 10 must be right to declare a positive result?

52 cards. You only have to get 10 right. Just tell me when to do it and I will. A day or two notice might be nice.

 

[Loss Leader]

Without a clear definition, there can't be agreement that it's been demonstrated. Not so much for terrestrial telepathy but for the aside into aliens having it. It should be pretty straight forward to define human telepathy - communication using some method other than our five senses. What if aliens have different senses?

It's silly speculation but telepathy is generally a silly topic. Might as well get some thought experiment mileage out of it.

That's why I didn't propose my test as anything conclusive or scientifically rigorous. It's only a starting point. We can later introduce more robust and controlled experiments and begin to define whatever it is we're studying.

 

[King of the Americas]

52 cards. You only have to get 10 right. Just tell me when to do it and I will. A day or two notice might be nice.

So, ONLY all 10 correct answers, with numbers and suits, will be considered a success?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

So, ONLY all 10 correct answers, with numbers and suits, will be considered a success?

I believe the proposal is that you attempt to guess all 52 cards and getting any 10 or more right would be considered a success.

I can't remember enough probability to work out the odds of achieving that by accident.

 

[Dave Rogers]

Loss Leader, I don't think you've explained this very clearly; I've had to re-read your post to understand what you mean. Let me see if I've got it right. Is what you propose as follows:

You shuffle the deck.
You look through all 52 cards, one at a time, and concentrate on each. While doing so you record where in the sequence each card falls.
KotA posts a sequence of all 52 cards, naming the position in the sequence where each card occurs.
If at least 10 of the card positions in KotA's sequence match the corresponding card positions in your sequence, this is counted as a success.

Is that correct?

Dave

 

[P.J. Denyer]

I would have to say that aliens won't have telepathy then. They will understand their own mechanisms of communication quite well even if we wouldn't.

And if a human being did demonstrate telepathic ability and it was found to be transmitted by a known medium then he wouldn't accept it as telepathy...

Strange because I'm sure that some believers claim it's electromagnetic (the fact that the human brain doesn't give off anything like enough EM conveniently ignored).

 

[Startz]

I believe the proposal is that you attempt to guess all 52 cards and getting any 10 or more right would be considered a success.

I can't remember enough probability to work out the odds of achieving that by accident.

Loss Leader, I don't think you've explained this very clearly; I've had to re-read your post to understand what you mean. Let me see if I've got it right. Is what you propose as follows:

You shuffle the deck.
You look through all 52 cards, one at a time, and concentrate on each. While doing so you record where in the sequence each card falls.
KotA posts a sequence of all 52 cards, naming the position in the sequence where each card occurs.
If at least 10 of the card positions in KotA's sequence match the corresponding card positions in your sequence, this is counted as a success.

Is that correct?

Dave

I ran a quick program to check the probability. Assuming the test is run carefully (cards shuffled and all that), and ignoring my well known tendency to write buggy code early in the morning, the probability of hitting 10 or more by chance is effectively zero.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

Thing is - and Darat mentioned this and you dismissed it - we actually do know an awful lot about the way the universe works. We know that there are only four fundamental ways in which particles can interact. Of the four, only two are capable of acting at greater than subatomic distances - gravity and electromagnetism. There are literally no other ways for particles (ie, stuff) to interact, and we know this for a fact. A century of experimentation and mathematical rigour have led us to this conclusion.

Furthermore, we know very precisely when and how these forces work. Very precisely indeed. For the electromagnetic force, we know how it operates more precisely than we have ever known anything else.

What you're proposing, though you don't even realise it, is the existence of some method for stuff to interact with other stuff that has previously gone unnoticed. Given the precision and accuracy with which we know the existing methods of stuff to interact, it is pretty much inconceivable that there exists another method that we have been unable to pin down with equal accuracy and precision.

We're very good at discovering how things work. That we haven't discovered yet how telepathy works - or even that telepathy works - very strongly suggests that there is no phenomenon there to discover.

The gap in our knowledge in which telepathy might be able to fit is extremely small.

Great post, which would have been unnecessary had Fudbucker simply watched the video explaining this.