nurse cuffed by cop for not breaking law

[Ziggurat]

A charge is an accusation, nothing more.

This signature is intended to irritate people.

Not so. It's quite a bit more. It starts a formal legal procedure which the accused must take part in, and that procedure takes a toll even on the innocent.

 

[Nessie]

Not so. It's quite a bit more. It starts a formal legal procedure which the accused must take part in, and that procedure takes a toll even on the innocent.

Indeed, being accused of a crime takes a terrible toll on people. They can lose their job, friends, relatives and neighbours as the "no smoke without fire" brigade presume guilt.

When the act is clearly not a crime, as with the nurse and the police officer, then the police who claim a crime was committed need to be punished for their acts.

 

[Giordano]

Exactly. Then they just worm their way closer to our community. We invite into our neighborhood the stasi who want their boots against our necks.

Modified Goodwin: East Germany, post-WW II. But close.

 

[Ziggurat]

Modified Goodwin: East Germany, post-WW II. But close.

Oh, but the comparison is completely appropriate. Everyone knows the defining characteristic of the Stasi is that they rendered emergency medical aid.

 

[Ranb]

Everyone except police should help. However, police are a ticking time bomb of abuses and we should keep them away.

So how likely are the police to commit some sort of abuse/assault/murder compared to the average American? What data can you show us to demonstrate that any certain police officer is more of a threat than any American? So far all we have is your ("they are lepers") unqualified opinion.

Will you trust a stranger less if you for some reason find out they are a police officer?

 

[BobTheCoward]

So how likely are the police to commit some sort of abuse/assault/murder compared to the average American? What data can you show us to demonstrate that any certain police officer is more of a threat than any American? So far all we have is your ("they are lepers") unqualified opinion.

Will you trust a stranger less if you for some reason find out they are a police officer?

I would absolutely have less trust in police.

To your first point, their frequency of crimes are not the issue. The fact they are agents of the state makes their crimes extremely abhorrent rather than a crime committed by a stranger.

 

[Darat]

Not guilty, with the verdict including the Sheriff pointing out there was no mens rea established, so there was no criminal act in the first place, which was surely obvious in the first place

Therefore there is now even more of a reason for a police officer to act as they did as it has now been made clear such action is not unlawful. You seem to have actually come to the completely wrong conclusion.

ETA Could you provide a link to this event?

 

[Metullus]

Therefore there is now even more of a reason for a police officer to act as they did as it has now been made clear such action is not unlawful. You seem to have actually come to the completely wrong conclusion.

ETA Could you provide a link to this event?

I think this is the case...

 

[Nessie]

Therefore there is now even more of a reason for a police officer to act as they did as it has now been made clear such action is not unlawful. You seem to have actually come to the completely wrong conclusion.

Not unless you think being dragged through the courts is a walk in the park. Cops accused of crimes usually get suspended, have no chance of promotion and I have already mentioned how the "no smoke without fire" brigade like to presume guilt.

Do you think the nurse will challenge the police again, or will she not risk being roughly arrested and just comply?

ETA Could you provide a link to this event?

https://rogerthepoliceman.wordpress.com/2017/08/19/my-trial-day-1/

 

[ddt]

Oh, but the comparison is completely appropriate. Everyone knows the defining characteristic of the Stasi is that they rendered emergency medical aid.

Especially to those who honed their climbing skills on vertical concrete surfaces.

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited to remove breach of rule 12

 

[Jodie]

The reason the video was made public in the first place was because Nurse Wubbles felt that the University Police that were standing around should have protected her from ever being arrested. She said she approached the police department and got an apology and a commitment to educate the force regarding the laws but that the University Police department were less accommodating. In her own words, " They put on the opposite teams jersey"during the incident in the ER.

I have to say I agree with her on this point. It's one thing to be arrested by a city police officer that is working in ignorance but to be abandoned by your own co-workers working for the same organization, then having them deny responsibility or fail to recognize a failure of duty, that truly is a slap in the face.

 

[Nessie]

The theme is cops who do not understand the law, which is down to failures in training and too many cops not intelligent enough to be able to remember the law and apply it. They then do not want to look stupid when they encounter someone who does know the law.

So, they resort to use of power and arrest rather than do the sensible thing, which would be to check to see if a warrant was needed or not.

 

[Darat]

Not unless you think being dragged through the courts is a walk in the park. Cops accused of crimes usually get suspended, have no chance of promotion and I have already mentioned how the "no smoke without fire" brigade like to presume guilt.

But as this case has now clearly demonstrated taking action as this police officer did was entirely legal and proper. Precedent has been set. There is now less likelihood of an officer begin charged and facing court over anything similar in future than there was before this case happened. Therefore as I said you've drawn the wrong conclusion - this case although not nice for the police officer has made it less likely any police officer will be treated in such a manner so a police officer should - if rational - now know better what is legal.

Do you think the nurse will challenge the police again, or will she not risk being roughly arrested and just comply?

One would expect this would increase the likelihood of a nurse acting in such a manner as the case has had a lot of publicity and nurses now know more than ever that the law is on their side.

https://rogerthepoliceman.wordpress.com/2017/08/19/my-trial-day-1/

Thanks.

 

[Mumbles]

Is this based upon personal experience, empirical data or prejudice? So far the only thing you're exhibited is prejudice.

I can speak for him here, as someone who has been abused by police who then faced no consequence. Want to know which one group of people I never trusted in that neighborhood, and would not call under any circumstance?

A few such experiences, and you learn very quickly.

 

[quadraginta]

The theme is cops who do not understand the law, which is down to failures in training and too many cops not intelligent enough to be able to remember the law and apply it. They then do not want to look stupid when they encounter someone who does know the law.

So, they resort to use of power and arrest rather than do the sensible thing, which would be to check to see if a warrant was needed or not.

Considering that they were executing the direct orders of their supervisor, I think it is safe to say that they assumed they had the authority.

They were wrong. They didn't. But the fault does not lie entirely with them.

The average police force is a sufficiently quasi-military organization in structure that someone had better be damned sure they had the right to refuse a direct order when given one.

Even then, they might suffer for disobedience, even if they were correct to refuse.

Mebbe especially if they were correct, unless that particular supervisor gets removed from their chain of command.

 

[ddt]

Considering that they were executing the direct orders of their supervisor, I think it is safe to say that they assumed they had the authority.

They were wrong. They didn't. But the fault does not lie entirely with them.

The average police force is a sufficiently quasi-military organization in structure that someone had better be damned sure they had the right to refuse a direct order when given one.

Even then, they might suffer for disobedience, even if they were correct to refuse.

Mebbe especially if they were correct, unless that particular supervisor gets removed from their chain of command.

The police officer himself admitted on the video he didn't have probable cause, so he knew he had no right to arrest her.

"I was just obeying orders" is called the Nuremberg defence, and hasn't been a legal (nor moral) justification for 70 years.

 

[quadraginta]

The police officer himself admitted on the video he didn't have probable cause, so he knew he had no right to arrest her.

"I was just obeying orders" is called the Nuremberg defence, and hasn't been a legal (nor moral) justification for 70 years.

And I was in no way suggesting that it ought to be this time either.

I was responding to Nessie's post concerning their failure to grasp the error of the position they were taking.

Pointing out that such failure is systemic is not the same as condoning it.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I doubt this case will impact behavior outside of the circle of people involved. It's not like anyone is arguing the cops had a case. Not even the cops are arguing that.

The incident was abnormal as hell, usually police don't consider hospital procedures to be obstruction of their investigation. Most cops would just not see that as a time or place to assert their authorité. It would be like asserting one's cop authority on a cop from another department. IOW this was not the usual cop vs citizen, it was much closer to cop vs colleague.

This guy and/or his supervisors were just idiots, probably very concerned about the financial damages they were exposed to given the police chase involved.

I've been in health care for decades and I work with the police all the time. I have never had an encounter with police that wasn't collegial when it involved work. Other times, absolutely, I find cops all too often act like they are gods when they confront anyone, even bystander witnesses. (No not all cops.)

So I just don't see this as having any significant impact outside of this incident, except to remind cops that nurses and hospitals are not the place to enforce contempt of cop.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Idaho Police Department Thanks ‘Heroic’ Nurse For Standing Up To Utah Cop

An Idaho police department is hailing nurse Alex Wubbels as a hero for standing up to Salt Lake City Detective Jeff Payne, who tried to take blood from a patient without a warrant or the patient’s consent.

That patient, it turns out, is William Gray, a reserve officer in Rigby, a city about 15 miles north of Idaho Falls.

“The Rigby Police Department would like to thank the nurse involved and hospital staff for standing firm, and protecting Officer Gray’s rights as a patient and victim,” the agency said on Facebook. “Protecting the rights of others is truly a heroic act.”

 

[Ranb]

I can speak for him here, as someone who has been abused by police who then faced no consequence. Want to know which one group of people I never trusted in that neighborhood, and would not call under any circumstance?

Given a situation out in public where I might need assistance for any reason, I'm more likely to choose a police officer than a stranger if both are near me. But then I've never been abused by a cop or had any reason to fear them.

So who would you ask for assistance from if it is needed?