nurse cuffed by cop for not breaking law

[Beady]

Cops are the monopolization of violence by the state. An expansion of their responsibility distorts their responsibilities. If police have a broader responsibility, it could lead to ideas such as law and order being more important than the rule of law.

Assuming that you're married (work with me, here), a cop who saves your spouse's life endangers your liberty. You would therefore rather see your spouse, s/o, whatever die (although, to be fair, I assume you'd rather it was someone else's s/o). Am I correct?

If that's your philosophy, own it.

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[BobTheCoward]

Assuming that you're married (work with me, here), a cop who saves your spouse's life endangers your liberty. You would therefore rather see your spouse, s/o, whatever die (although, to be fair, I assume you'd rather it was someone else's s/o). Am I correct?

If that's your philosophy, own it.

This signature is intended to irritate people.

Correct. But we all have some ethical limit on that. If a madman gave people the ultimatum to do something heinous or he would hurt their spouse (and the outcomes we're not in doubt) we would hope people do not select the heinous act.

To clarify. I would not want that to happen. But what I want to happen and what are what I understand to be the philosophically acceptable positions are not the same thing. I would love to be convinced that there was an acceptable alternative.

 

[Beady]

Correct. But we all have some ethical limit on that.

Could a cop ethically allow someone to die if it was within his power to prevent it? *Should* a cop allow someone to die if it was within his power to prevent it, regardless of department policy? Should cops be prohibited from taking 1st aid courses on their own time? Should cops be punished for using their knowledge, if it violates department policy, even if lives are saved? Which is more important, policy or public safety?


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[ojno]

This discussion seems a bit moot. Rendering first aid doesn't require giving a cop any more legal rights/abilities than a random bystander.

(In the cases where some actions have possible dual purposes, such as drawing blood samples, we and the law take the view that intent and subsequent actions matter.)

Edit: obviously in the case of taking blood samples you would have to imagine the random bystander was a nurse, or whatever, to discount the qualification aspect.

 

[Beady]

This discussion seems a bit moot. Rendering first aid doesn't require giving a cop any more legal rights/abilities than a random bystander.

(In the cases where some actions have possible dual purposes, such as drawing blood samples, we and the law take the view that intent and subsequent actions matter.)

Edit: obviously in the case of taking blood samples you would have to imagine the random bystander was a nurse, or whatever, to discount the qualification aspect.

And yet, Bob rules out 1st Aid as an unwarranted extension of police power, considering it a danger to his personal liberty. I quite frankly cannot understand such thinking, especially since it does not appear to be grounded in any political philosophy known to the general public.

ETA: Fun fact: Alaska State Troopers are official state coroners.

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[Ranb]

So should they be prohibited from rendering aid when needed in emergencies?

Yes

What sense does it make to ignore a valuable resource like the police force?

I fixed your

so that my quote would work.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

I can see some of BTC's point here. The issue is a continuing erosion of trust in the oversight systems to actually remove violators (and thus dissuade others from becoming violators).

How about a system where we go somewhat the opposite direction. Require officers to maintain first aid certification. If they are found using the auspices of medical care to conduct an illegal search and seizure, their certification is revoked and they are then lacking a prerequisite for the job and terminated (or shuffled off to a desk somewhere in the bowels of the city administration building).

Although this to, relies on whatever body is tasked with reviewing notices of complaint being ethical in its oversight.

 

[Hungry81]

It is in their very motto: to protect and to serve. The things I unilaterally protect are things I view myself as master and superior of.

You serious? You would not step in to save or protect someone elses life or property if you had the ability? A run away pram or a ball bouncing towards a roadway? A person who has fallen or collapsed in the street infront of you? A lost child?

 

[Ziggurat]

But what I want to happen and what are what I understand to be the philosophically acceptable positions are not the same thing.

Perhaps there is something wrong with your philosophy if you recoil from its actual consequences.

 

[Nessie]

All right. Two-car accident, five people involved; injuries include minor scrapes, a couple of broken bones, a sucking chest wound. The nearest available fire and rescue are 10 minutes out, the hospital an additional 10 minutes. No one else is around. What are the cop's duties and responsibilities?

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In Scotland, police attending the scene of a RTA must, in order

1 - protect the scene of the accident from any further accidents. You do not want another car crashing.
2 - assess what resources are needed and report to the control room
3 - only once 1 and 2 are completed (which can take some time) will they then render any first aid and the instruction is to go to anyone not making any noise. If someone is screaming, they are still alive and breathing.

 

[Nessie]

Could a cop ethically allow someone to die if it was within his power to prevent it? *Should* a cop allow someone to die if it was within his power to prevent it, regardless of department policy? Should cops be prohibited from taking 1st aid courses on their own time? Should cops be punished for using their knowledge, if it violates department policy, even if lives are saved? Which is more important, policy or public safety?


This signature is intended to irritate people.

If you are Scottish police officer, you should think twice about saving life. A cop here was charged with assault after he prevented a suicide in police cells. A prisoner was found trying to strangle himself.

He was charged because someone who witnessed the method used to stop the suicide, a push off balance with the foot, thought it was excessive force, despite the prisoner not sustaining any injury from the push. The police in Scotland are not trained in how to stop a suicide, but they are trained if someone is trying to strangle them, put them off balance and they will let go.

 

[Beady]

If you are Scottish police officer, you should think twice about saving life. A cop here was charged with assault after he prevented a suicide in police cells. A prisoner was found trying to strangle himself.

He was charged because someone who witnessed the method used to stop the suicide, a push off balance with the foot, thought it was excessive force, despite the prisoner not sustaining any injury from the push. The police in Scotland are not trained in how to stop a suicide, but they are trained if someone is trying to strangle them, put them off balance and they will let go.

He was charged, but how did the case turn out? The bare fact that someone is charged is almost meaningless.

This signature is intended to irritate people.

 

[BobTheCoward]

You serious? You would not step in to save or protect someone elses life or property if you had the ability? A run away pram or a ball bouncing towards a roadway? A person who has fallen or collapsed in the street infront of you? A lost child?

Everyone except police should help. However, police are a ticking time bomb of abuses and we should keep them away.

 

[Ziggurat]

He was charged, but how did the case turn out? The bare fact that someone is charged is almost meaningless.

This signature is intended to irritate people.

No, it's not meaningless. It means less than a conviction, but the process itself is a form of punishment.

 

[Ziggurat]

Everyone except police should help. However, police are a ticking time bomb of abuses and we should keep them away.

After all, if they save one life, they might save again.

 

[BobTheCoward]

After all, if they save one life, they might save again.

Exactly. Then they just worm their way closer to our community. We invite into our neighborhood the stasi who want their boots against our necks.

 

[Ziggurat]

Exactly. Then they just worm their way closer to our community. We invite into our neighborhood the stasi who want their boots against our necks.

I can't even parody you, you parody yourself far better.

 

[Beady]

No, it's not meaningless. It means less than a conviction, but the process itself is a form of punishment.

A charge is an accusation, nothing more.

This signature is intended to irritate people.

 

[Beady]

Exactly. Then they just worm their way closer to our community. We invite into our neighborhood the stasi who want their boots against our necks.

I've heard Slippery Slope arguments before, but this one gives a whole new meaning to paranoia.

This signature is intended to irritate people.

 

[Nessie]

He was charged, but how did the case turn out? The bare fact that someone is charged is almost meaningless.

This signature is intended to irritate people.

Not guilty, with the verdict including the Sheriff pointing out there was no mens rea established, so there was no criminal act in the first place, which was surely obvious in the first place