NAFTA is nowhere near as all encompassing and free as the EU.
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NAFTA is nowhere near as all encompassing and free as the EU.
ddt
Mafia Penguin
Free movement of workers was a requirement. When someone had a job contract, you had to give them a residence permit, as GnaGnaMan helpfully pointed out by quoting the Treaty of Rome.
I don't see what's there to "fix". Yes it was only restricted to "workers" at the time of signing in 1957. And as you concede yourself, Heath signed up for an "ever closer union". That this right would be expanded to anyone, really must be no surprise.
At least it brings the discussion forward that you concede this is all about immigration of unwanted foreigners. Not about dirty or "bullying" (Vixen's word) Germans, of course - like Mrs. Farage who has for years been stealing a job that belongs to a red-blooded Briton - but it's about dirty Poles and dirty Romanians. Got it.
You do know that Whitehall still employs many, many more bureaucrats than Brussels? All the examples given about that horrible EU bureaucracy turn out to be lies. Many of them peddled by the long-time Telegraph correspondent in Brussels.
ddt
Mafia Penguin
It's the first time I've read the word Vergangenheitsbewältigung with respect to England, frankly, with respect to any country other than Germany. The Nazis have severely abused the language of Goethe and Heine, but at least we got that beautiful word in return.
You can have all sorts of carve-outs in free trade agreements or cover only certain areas. The EU-precursors have had free trade in labor since the 1950ies.
The EU currently has 28 eight members (and some of those are federal with powerful sub-states). If each of those now gets to suspend free trade in some area then you won't have much free trade left.
Archie Gemmill Goal
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98% was the figure I saw today/yesterday. Which would be amazing if accurate.
Thought that hasn't stopped the anti-EU crowd pretending otherwise. The thing that Brexiteers fail to grasp is that as you point out the free movement of labour is an integral part of the free market and not something separate. Frankly given the acute labour shortages in certain industries free movement has been of benefit to the UK, but I guess Brexiteers all have private medical insurance and only buy foreign fruit and veg...
It's more like the required labour will appear when required and then melt away as and when they are no longer required. IOW the same magical thinking that has underpinned the whole Brexit campaign and process.
Which is pretty much what free movement of people allows, and it also allows British citizens to find work in other parts of the EU.
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
It's almost like the Brexiteers find things they don't like which are the actions of sovereign states and then try to blame the EU for them.
ddt
Mafia Penguin
That's a good addition.
It's just that you don't need a residence permit to move within the EU, while, say, 25 years ago, you still needed a residence permit and you only were entitled to it if you had a job in the first place.
But of course, according to the xenophobic Brexiteer cohort, all those dirty Poles come to scrounge on UK benefits, and at the same time to steal jobs from honest Britons.
That's a good addition.
It's just that you don't need a residence permit to move within the EU, while, say, 25 years ago, you still needed a residence permit and you only were entitled to it if you had a job in the first place.
But of course, according to the xenophobic Brexiteer cohort, all those dirty Poles come to scrounge on UK benefits, and at the same time to steal jobs from honest Britons.
And our women too, don't forget that
Possibly because they're hard-working and polite?That's a good addition.
It's just that you don't need a residence permit to move within the EU, while, say, 25 years ago, you still needed a residence permit and you only were entitled to it if you had a job in the first place.
But of course, according to the xenophobic Brexiteer cohort, all those dirty Poles come to scrounge on UK benefits, and at the same time to steal jobs from honest Britons.
Coming over here, doing jobs that we don't want, keeping our essential services running, paying taxes and boosting the economy... Yes, terrible. I suppose some might have an accent, and they probably don't like to hang out with people who hate them.
Speaking purely from a selfish point of view, the freer UK immigration is for employment, the more secure my job is, as I want my colleagues to be the most competent, regardless of where they come from.
I'm pretty sure that you could get a permit merely for looking for job (ie while not having one) at least since the 80ies.
Also, free trade in labor is about more than an individual right to move to and work in other countries. It also requires, for example, making qualifications equivalent. It makes much more sense to think about freedom of movement as being about intregrating labor markets, than individual rights.
ddt
Mafia Penguin
You may well be right about the first and I wholeheartedly agree with the second.
Personal anecdote: in 1993, I moved to Germany to finish my PhD. My professor offered me a job as "scientific assistant", which is generally the case for PhD students in Germany (as in the Netherlands). After registering as a resident at town hall, I went to the window upstairs to request a residence permit. The lady asked me where I worked, I said at the university, and she phoned HR for affirmation. A month later or so, they needed my passport for a week for finalizing the permit. I can't even find a single form I filled out for it in my files.
The lady at HR had a problem with finalizing my job contract though. She wanted a certified translation of my Dutch MSc diploma (I don't know why she couldn't read either the Dutch or the Latin version
). On advice of my professor, I phoned the ministry and they helpfully sent me a copy of a law implementing an EU directive that EU states should recognize four-year college degrees, and replacing an even earlier law recognizing Dutch university degrees.According to the BBC, the EU is setting efficiency standards for vacuum cleaners. But not everyone agrees with this.
UKIP's Roger Helmer said: "By all means let's make pathetic under-powered vacuum cleaners for export to the EU.
"But we must retain the right to make and use sensible full-powered appliances in the UK. This shows why we must not agree to be bound by EU rules after Brexit."
The EEB replied: "Without EU energy efficiency rules, the UK market risks getting flooded with inefficient and cheap imports from China which waste more energy and break easily due to lower standards."
"But we must retain the right to make and use sensible full-powered appliances in the UK. This shows why we must not agree to be bound by EU rules after Brexit."
The EEB replied: "Without EU energy efficiency rules, the UK market risks getting flooded with inefficient and cheap imports from China which waste more energy and break easily due to lower standards."
Archie Gemmill Goal
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Roger Helmer is an idiot who knows nothing about the topic clearly.
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
I mentioned before, ever since the EU placed sanctions on Russia, Russia retaliated by banning any diary product imports from the EU. So now Finland is flooded with cheap Russian cheeses with garish labels and its own production plants being laid off.
Leading to a ludicrous thriving cheese blackmarket:
So, can we expect the same kind of silliness after the divorce?
At least, no longer being in the EU, we can start flogging cheese to the Russians. NB Oltermanni cheese is popular because it is processed to a point it is lactose-free. Mild-tasting and creamy. If anybody wants a post- Brexit business idea.
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