Ed Dueling protests spark state of emergency in Virginia.

[Delphic Oracle]

Just like anyone breathing fire at a carnival.

And we're back to pretending like context doesn't exist again.

Sent from my SM-J327P using Tapatalk

 

[Darat]

Agreed.

I also think the make-shift-flamethrower-wielder should be charged as well, albeit with a lesser charge.

What charge?

 

[ponderingturtle]

And we're back to pretending like context doesn't exist again.

Sent from my SM-J327P using Tapatalk

The context of having a weapon that couldn't possible reach the people it was supposedly being used on? Ok then every single nazi with a shield and club should also be arrested and charged.

Also all those who carried torches the night before. Those are bludgeons and fire!

 

[Meadmaker]

I found a video of Corey Long (the flamersprayer guy) at the parking garage fight. I didn't save a link, but if you search youtube for Deandre Harris, you can find it. There are actually a couple of frequently clipped videos. One shows a group of people following a group of the Nazis down the street. Long and Harris are among them. On that video, the camera is pointing the other way when the fight breaks out, but turns toward the fight. That video continues on to show one of the Nazis and Harris get beaten up by their respective enemies.

In a different clip, you can see the beginning of the fight. Long and a Nazi are tussling over a flag. The beginning of that tussle isn't shown. At the beginning of that video, it looks like Long is trying to take the flag away from the Nazi. At some point, Harris jumps in and hits the Nazi with a club. That's when things get really violent. It isn't clear exactly what happens next. At some point a man in a pink shirt carrying a long staff swings it at the Nazi. Other Nazis join in the fray. One of them, I think the man who had the flag at first, is pulled into the parking garage on the ground, and three men beat him. Harris has been knocked to the ground, and as he starts to get up, he is hit by a Nazi with some sort of club. On that video, that's the only contact with Harris, and several youtubers use that to "prove" that Harris was only hit once and faked his injuries, but a different video shows a few seconds later Harris being struck multiple times by a group of Nazis. I didn't see Long in any of the videos after the initial tussle over the flag.

*I know that not everyone there is really a Nazi or neo-Nazi, but this particular flag is one of those that uses the sharp, angular, lines reminiscent of Nazi era flags. "Nazi" is close enough for all of them, and a lot easier to type than other options.

 

[uke2se]

I found a video of Corey Long (the flamersprayer guy) at the parking garage fight. I didn't save a link, but if you search youtube for Deandre Harris, you can find it. There are actually a couple of frequently clipped videos. One shows a group of people following a group of the Nazis down the street. Long and Harris are among them. On that video, the camera is pointing the other way when the fight breaks out, but turns toward the fight. That video continues on to show one of the Nazis and Harris get beaten up by their respective enemies.

In a different clip, you can see the beginning of the fight. Long and a Nazi are tussling over a flag. The beginning of that tussle isn't shown. At the beginning of that video, it looks like Long is trying to take the flag away from the Nazi. At some point, Harris jumps in and hits the Nazi with a club. That's when things get really violent. It isn't clear exactly what happens next. At some point a man in a pink shirt carrying a long staff swings it at the Nazi. Other Nazis join in the fray. One of them, I think the man who had the flag at first, is pulled into the parking garage on the ground, and three men beat him. Harris has been knocked to the ground, and as he starts to get up, he is hit by a Nazi with some sort of club. On that video, that's the only contact with Harris, and several youtubers use that to "prove" that Harris was only hit once and faked his injuries, but a different video shows a few seconds later Harris being struck multiple times by a group of Nazis. I didn't see Long in any of the videos after the initial tussle over the flag.

*I know that not everyone there is really a Nazi or neo-Nazi, but this particular flag is one of those that uses the sharp, angular, lines reminiscent of Nazi era flags. "Nazi" is close enough for all of them, and a lot easier to type than other options.

Are you saying Harris only has himself to blame for being beaten up by Nazis while lying on the ground?

 

[Fast Eddie B]

What charge?

You'd have to dig out the VA lawbook, but...

Disorderly conduct or reckless endangerment are the sorts of statute that pop into my mind.

Too late to edit, but I meant VA and not NC in my post above.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Are you saying Harris only has himself to blame for being beaten up by Nazis while lying on the ground?

I read a rough description of a confusing sequence of events. As a sometimes journalist I found it rather decently dry and didn't detect any overt bias (even gave rebuttals against some of the partisan claims).

Not sure what you were reading.

Sent from my SM-J327P using Tapatalk

 

[Delphic Oracle]

You'd have to dig out the VA lawbook, but...

Disorderly conduct or reckless endangerment are the sorts of statute that pop into my mind.

Too late to edit, but I meant VA and not NC in my post above.

In some jurisdictions there might various forms of "menacing" charges.

My position, by the way, would be that the paint can stunt would be one of those incidents to investigate but not indict. Frown on it, but let it go or it'll just exacerbate tensions.

What I disagree with is attempts to pass it off as no more provocative than street carnival buskers. That's a professional performance art and the good ones take great care to have safety awareness, emergency materials on hand, etc.

Some of the same people tossing around "false equivalence" every other post also fall all over themselves to make clearly hostile acts into innocent misunderstandings and thus lose their credibility.

Sent from my SM-J327P using Tapatalk

 

[ponderingturtle]

In some jurisdictions there might various forms of "menacing" charges.

My position, by the way, would be that the paint can stunt would be one of those incidents to investigate but not indict. Frown on it, but let it go or it'll just exacerbate tensions.

What I disagree with is attempts to pass it off as no more provocative than street carnival buskers. That's a professional performance art and the good ones take great care to have safety awareness, emergency materials on hand, etc.

Some of the same people tossing around "false equivalence" every other post also fall all over themselves to make clearly hostile acts into innocent misunderstandings and thus lose their credibility.

Sent from my SM-J327P using Tapatalk

But was it more dangerous and criminal? Heavily armed nazi's showing up is provacative.

 

[uke2se]

What I disagree with is attempts to pass it off as no more provocative than street carnival buskers. That's a professional performance art and the good ones take great care to have safety awareness, emergency materials on hand, etc.

What about the bad ones? Should they be indicted?

What I argue against is this seemingly subconcious need to always add false balance to the discussion when discussing political issues. There's no balance here. We have a guy with an aerosol can lighting the spray on fire at least ten feet away from anyone he is pointing it towards, and on the other side we have a guy with a gun who fires the gun towards the guy with the aerosol can after yelling out "hey ******" [pejorative term for African American]. We don't have to talk about perceived transgressions from the guy with the spray can in order to condemn the Nazi with the gun. Doing so creates a sense of equivalency that few of us intend to convey, but many do anyway.

I would have thought condemning Nazis would be the easiest thing in the world for most of the poster here, and yet what we see for the most part is "yes, but..." posts.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

But was it more dangerous and criminal? Heavily armed nazi's showing up is provacative.

More dangerous than a fire-breathing performance? Yes.

A sensible performance artist in the midst of street violence would pack up his things and go home, not spit flames and then claim he wasn't meaning to be provacative.

I'm not in any way trying to make the flames and the shot equivalent, which is part of why I say to let the former slide.

Sent from my SM-J327P using Tapatalk

 

[Delphic Oracle]

What about the bad ones? Should they be indicted?

Yes, for endangering the public and performing without a license/insurance, etc. Doing it right takes equipment and training (investment). They make money selling performances to attract traffic to venues nearby. So letting any random guy with a paint can and a lighter call themselves a "fire-breather" is dangerous and undercuts the profitability of those diligent and properly prepared performers.

What I argue against is this seemingly subconcious need to always add false balance to the discussion when discussing political issues. There's no balance here. We have a guy with an aerosol can lighting the spray on fire at least ten feet away from anyone he is pointing it towards, and on the other side we have a guy with a gun who fires the gun towards the guy with the aerosol can after yelling out "hey ******" [pejorative term for African American]. We don't have to talk about perceived transgressions from the guy with the spray can in order to condemn the Nazi with the gun. Doing so creates a sense of equivalency that few of us intend to convey, but many do anyway.

There's a difference between saying both are hostile and both are the same level of hostility.

I would have thought condemning Nazis would be the easiest thing in the world for most of the poster here, and yet what we see for the most part is "yes, but..." posts.

I expect better of posters here than constantly falling back on poisoning the well and straw men.

Parsing nuance is passed off as morally objectionable. A tactic I once equated with religious dingbats almost exclusively.

 

[uke2se]

Yes, for endangering the public and performing without a license/insurance, etc. Doing it right takes equipment and training (investment). They make money selling performances to attract traffic to venues nearby. So letting any random guy with a paint can and a lighter call themselves a "fire-breather" is dangerous and undercuts the profitability of those diligent and properly prepared performers.

Geez... can you give me some examples of where such have been arrested? Because I work in law enforcement (not in the US mind you), and I have never arrested any people like that, despite encontering lots of them.

There's a difference between saying both are hostile and both are the same level of hostility.

The nuance is lost on a message board where we have everyone posting from the far left to the Nazi right. It's also a nuance that's lost when someone makes someone having a "flamethrower" a point against the argument that a gun wielding Nazi firing on protesters is bad, which is what happened in this thread.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Geez... can you give me some examples of where such have been arrested? Because I work in law enforcement (not in the US mind you), and I have never arrested any people like that, despite encontering lots of them.




The nuance is lost on a message board where we have everyone posting from the far left to the Nazi right. It's also a nuance that's lost when someone makes someone having a "flamethrower" a point against the argument that a gun wielding Nazi firing on protesters is bad, which is what happened in this thread.

Nuance is lost when every time someone discusses nuance you tell them they are defending nazis. Got a problem with the tone of discussion? Look in the mirror.

Sent from my SM-J327P using Tapatalk

 

[uke2se]

Nuance is lost when every time someone discusses nuance you tell them they are defending nazis. Got a problem with the tone of discussion? Look in the mirror.

Sent from my SM-J327P using Tapatalk

I'm not the one who used the counter protester having a "flamethrower" as a defense of the Nazi wielding the gun. In fact, I spoke out against that.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

I'm not the one who used the counter protester having a "flamethrower" as a defense of the Nazi wielding the gun. In fact, I spoke out against that.

Who defended a nazi?

You contorting that claim out of your ass means nothing.

Sent from my SM-J327P using Tapatalk

 

[uke2se]

Who defended a nazi?

You contorting that claim out of your ass means nothing.

Sent from my SM-J327P using Tapatalk

Many did. Defended him by saying "oh, but that counter protester with the "flamethrower" was bad too". That creates a false equivalency, even if the person saying it - like you - might feel that they are different degrees of 'bad', that is not evident by their argument. Thus, we have a false equivalency. This is extremely common around here, because we have so many posters who pride themselves at being "centrist" and think that means that the truth always lies in the middle of two extreme positions.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Many did. Defended him by saying "oh, but that counter protester with the "flamethrower" was bad too". That creates a false equivalency, even if the person saying it - like you - might feel that they are different degrees of 'bad', that is not evident by their argument. Thus, we have a false equivalency. This is extremely common around here, because we have so many posters who pride themselves at being "centrist" and think that means that the truth always lies in the middle of two extreme positions.

You impugn motives and hand wave about what 3rd parties might gleam from this or that statement.

Pathetically weak argument.

Sent from my SM-J327P using Tapatalk

 

[ponderingturtle]

Nuance is lost when every time someone discusses nuance you tell them they are defending nazis. Got a problem with the tone of discussion? Look in the mirror.

Sent from my SM-J327P using Tapatalk

So what do you tell people when they are defending nazi's? We have lots of people here trying to claim that going to an event organized by nazi's to promote nazi values and white nationalism doesn't mean we can associate people with the causes they were explicitly there to support.

That is literally defending nazi's. How do you respond to that?

 

[caveman1917]

This is extremely common around here, because we have so many posters who pride themselves at being "centrist" and think that means that the truth always lies in the middle of two extreme positions.

Cubic-Earthism to be precise. One person says the Earth is flat, another says the Earth is round, therefor the truth is in the middle and the Earth is a cube. Ie, Cubic-Earthism.