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Ed Dueling protests spark state of emergency in Virginia.

...For the record, there was nothing special about the "greatest" generation. They did what was required of them when the circumstances called for it, just as any American generation would have I'll bet. Their performance was not without tremendous fault either. The US was very slow to meaningfully oppose tyranny (most of the actions before the war were undertaken by FDR without congressional or popular support), refused to take refugees fleeing the Nazis, and oppressed Japanese and German Americans for fear of fifth column activities.

Militarily, American soldiers were, pound for pound, perhaps the least effective of any of the major participants, save the French and the Italians. ....


Cool made-up history, bro. Got any cites for this ... ah ... conjecture?

...For the record, there was nothing special about the "greatest" generation. They did what was required of them when the circumstances called for it, just as any American generation would have I'll bet. Their performance was not without tremendous fault either. The US was very slow to meaningfully oppose tyranny (most of the actions before the war were undertaken by FDR without congressional or popular support), refused to take refugees fleeing the Nazis, and oppressed Japanese and German Americans for fear of fifth column activities...

Do you tell WWII veterans about this before or after you thank them for their service?
 
... I don't think the "Greatest Generation" were born great. Nor by any means that all of them, or even most of them, achieved greatness. Many were far from it. But the generation as a whole had "greatness thrust upon them" whether or not they would have achieved it had they not been challenged. They encountered a very perilous time and as a group navigated through the terrors to give us a world far better than it could have been.

This is balanced. People can rise to challenges, and many did. Many did not. Having lived a in a very racist post-WWII environ in the nation's capital, no less, I can attest to the fact that there can be no social hagiographies written about those times, however.

... Do you tell WWII veterans about this before or after you thank them for their service?

They fought one form of single-truth madness, then in the Cold War, another. Yet today, here we are, with one major party consistently exhibiting that same bowing in awe of a single Big Truth, with fringes on both right and left declaring "my way or the highway." Seems many were in fact absolutely clueless about what the hell they were really fighting for. And wasn't economic self-interest also in play? Or did that sacred behavioral cow of the right suddenly disappear? This is what comes of employing inconsistent, cafeteria-style criteria as the situations and contexts change.

***
The full range of human behavior and motives, from bad to good, self-serving to altruistic, pertains always, in all situations, in all groups, individual extremes notwithstanding. All of it is in play, always. While highlighting selected actions and persons can provide examples one would like to see emulated, the raw data never supports sweeping declarations of purity of intent or honor in action.
 
<snip>

Militarily, American soldiers were, pound for pound, perhaps the least effective of any of the major participants, save the French and the Italians. ....


Cool made-up history, bro. Got any cites for this ... ah ... conjecture?

<snip>


I suspect that the Japanese didn't feel that way about them.

Maybe we sent all the good ones to the Pacific?
 
I suspect that the Japanese didn't feel that way about them.

Maybe we sent all the good ones to the Pacific?
Clearly the guy is reading some revisionist history. Pound for pound actually one of the least effective fighting forces were the Soviets. But like Stalin said, "Quantity has a quality all its own". So even though the Soviets took horrendous casualties, they managed to win anyway. The US fighting style was very different. We tended to make the enemy die more than us.

Take for example the battle of the bulge against "Germany's finest" elite picked troops. 75,000 American casualties and 100,000 German casualties.

Compare to the battle of Kursk. Soviet total casualties amounted to 685,456 men. German losses about 50,000 killed or missing and 134,000 wounded.

During the campaign to take Guadalcanal, the Allied losses numbered around 7,100 men, 29 ships, and 615 aircraft. Japanese casualties were approximately 31,000 killed, 1,000 captured, 38 ships, and 683-880 aircraft.

So "pound for pound" it is clear. The US forces were some of the best. Owing of course to equipment and supply mostly. But also to doctrinal differences.

Best way to describe it is that US troops were quite capable of turning and running away, regrouping and fighting again within minutes or hours, even when not rallied by a leader. Most other country's troops either had no retreat order like the Japanese, or when they did break, they stayed broke for days, weeks or even forever. So US troops ease for breaking is a bit unjustified. It was just a military doctrinal difference. And by the way a type of difference that resulted in the troops being near impossible to defeat. You could break the lines over and over and they would just reform. It's very difficult to defeat an enemy like that unless you have HUGE overwhelming superiority.
 
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Clearly the guy is reading some revisionist history. Pound for pound actually the least effective fighting forces were the Soviets. But like Stalin said, "Quantity has a quality all its own". So even though the Soviets took horrendous casualties, they managed to win anyway. The US fighting style was very different. We tended to make the enemy die more than us.

Take for example the battle of the bulge against "Germany's finest" elite picked troops. 75,000 American casualties and 100,000 German casualties.

Compare to the battle of Kursk. Soviet total casualties amounted to 685,456 men. German losses about 50,000 killed or missing and 134,000 wounded.

During the campaign to take Guadalcanal, the Allied losses numbered around 7,100 men, 29 ships, and 615 aircraft. Japanese casualties were approximately 31,000 killed, 1,000 captured, 38 ships, and 683-880 aircraft.

So "pound for pound" it is clear. The US forces were some of the best. Owing of course to equipment and supply mostly. But also to doctrinal differences.

Best way to describe it is that US troops were quite capable of turning and running away, regrouping and fighting again within minutes or hours, even when not rallied by a leader. Most other country's troops either had no retreat order like the Japanese, or when they did break, they stayed broke for days, weeks or even forever. So US troops ease for breaking is a bit unjustified. It was just a military doctrinal difference. And by the way a type of difference that resulted in the troops being near impossible to defeat. You could break the lines over and over and they would just reform. It's very difficult to defeat an enemy like that unless you have HUGE overwhelming superiority.

Yes, and one other factor was that the Western Allies tended to have more support troops, which made the fighting troops more effective. Despite the propaganda, the Germans logistics were based on the horse. the Western Allies were based on the lorry.

ETA: Amateaurs study tactics, professionals study logistics.
 
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Celebrating Kansas's proud confederate slavery expanding history! How else do we make heroes of the rioters in the Tulsa race riots?
 
This is balanced. People can rise to challenges, and many did. Many did not. Having lived a in a very racist post-WWII environ in the nation's capital, no less, I can attest to the fact that there can be no social hagiographies written about those times, however.

But america was great then, so clearly upping the racism game is part of making america great again.
 
Now some tit for tat idiots who want to make the left look equally bad (taking their cue from Trump no doubt) want the statue of Lenin removed from the Fremont neighborhood here in Seattle.

Five whole people protested and the ignorant mayor publicly called for removal if the statue.

Let me give you some background here. It's in the same town that has a giant troll under the bridge holding a VW. It's the town that has an annual Solstice Parade famous for painted naked bicyclists. There's a rocket ship and a sign marking the center of the Universe. There's a famous statue, Waiting for the Interurban which has a dog with a human face and the statue is regularly dressed up for various occasions.

The statue of Lenin is considered artwork by most people, not a celebration of Lenin.
Lenin in Fremont: Right or Wrong?

The presence of this sculpture has evoked a wide range of responses. If art is supposed to make us feel, not just feel good, then this sculpture is a successful work of art. The challenge is to understand that this piece means different things to different people and to learn to listen to each other and respect different opinions. From an artists standpoint, all points of view are valid and important.
The mayor needs to review the reason the statue is there.
 
Some Antifa history.
Today 25 years ago the Rostock [Germany] pogrom started where hundreds of neo-nazis under applause and cheers of thousands of local "concerned citizens" violently attacked a apartment block which housed refugees with rocks and petrolbombs.
Only after three days, when many Antifascists gathered to chase away the racist mob did the police finally intervene (by arresting the antifa).
Never forget.
(cops are pretty much always working for/with the fascists)
 
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Now some tit for tat idiots who want to make the left look equally bad (taking their cue from Trump no doubt) want the statue of Lenin removed from the Fremont neighborhood here in Seattle.

Five whole people protested and the ignorant mayor publicly called for removal if the statue.

Let me give you some background here. It's in the same town that has a giant troll under the bridge holding a VW. It's the town that has an annual Solstice Parade famous for painted naked bicyclists. There's a rocket ship and a sign marking the center of the Universe. There's a famous statue, Waiting for the Interurban which has a dog with a human face and the statue is regularly dressed up for various occasions.

The statue of Lenin is considered artwork by most people, not a celebration of Lenin.The mayor needs to review the reason the statue is there.

I agree that it's stupid and a complete attempt at false equivalency from the people who want to take it down, but I'd take a deal where it gets removed, and all monuments celebrating the Confederacy are removed, and noone else dies.
 
Now some tit for tat idiots who want to make the left look equally bad (taking their cue from Trump no doubt) want the statue of Lenin removed from the Fremont neighborhood here in Seattle.

Five whole people protested and the ignorant mayor publicly called for removal if the statue.

Let me give you some background here. It's in the same town that has a giant troll under the bridge holding a VW. It's the town that has an annual Solstice Parade famous for painted naked bicyclists. There's a rocket ship and a sign marking the center of the Universe. There's a famous statue, Waiting for the Interurban which has a dog with a human face and the statue is regularly dressed up for various occasions.

The statue of Lenin is considered artwork by most people, not a celebration of Lenin.The mayor needs to review the reason the statue is there.

It's a privately owned statue on private property. It's also for sale. If they want it gone; buy it!

The Carpenter family continues to seek a buyer for the statue. As of 2015 the asking price was US$250,000, up from a 1996 price of US$150,000 (equivalent to $230,000 in 2016).
 
I agree that it's stupid and a complete attempt at false equivalency from the people who want to take it down, but I'd take a deal where it gets removed, and all monuments celebrating the Confederacy are removed, and noone else dies.

The irony is that early American politicians thought anything that smacked of royalty was to be avoided, including statues and monuments to specific people. To their credit and owing to the British trading companies of the era, they were adamantly opposed to granting trade charters, the early form of corporations. Unsurprisingly, the Frightards wish to hear none of this, and only want to circle the 2ndA in red crayon.
 

Moreover, it was salvaged from a trash heap where it was going to be destroyed. Therefore, this is absolutely one of those cases of "preserving art"

The person who bought it did so because they were friends of the artist and wanted to preserve his sculpture. And, as noted, it is on private property, not public land.

Other than that, it is exactly like civil war monuments...
 
Given the length of this discussion (pardon me if I missed it), but how do others feel about who should make the decision to retain or remove a monument?

I personally oppose these monuments as symbol of Jim Crow, oppression of African Americans, and white supremacists but it is my opinion that the local community needs to decide not even the state and definitely not the federal government.
 
Given the length of this discussion (pardon me if I missed it), but how do others feel about who should make the decision to retain or remove a monument?

I personally oppose these monuments as symbol of Jim Crow, oppression of African Americans, and white supremacists but it is my opinion that the local community needs to decide not even the state and definitely not the federal government.

I don't disagree, in principle. That was the case with a Confederate memorial here in St. Louis. It was put up in the 1910s despite local objections and was locally decided to be removed after the mess in Ferguson.

Society being a messy thing, I'm sure there has been or will be a situation where a monument should probably come down despite local opinions. But I agree in principle, I think.
 
Given the length of this discussion (pardon me if I missed it), but how do others feel about who should make the decision to retain or remove a monument?

I personally oppose these monuments as symbol of Jim Crow, oppression of African Americans, and white supremacists but it is my opinion that the local community needs to decide not even the state and definitely not the federal government.

I don't think there should be any public monuments to anything.
 
I don't think there should be any public monuments to anything.

I can understand this in principle. One problem might be defining a public monument. Would an architectural style, relief, or mural of an historical event count a s monument?
 
Given the length of this discussion (pardon me if I missed it), but how do others feel about who should make the decision to retain or remove a monument?

I personally oppose these monuments as symbol of Jim Crow, oppression of African Americans, and white supremacists but it is my opinion that the local community needs to decide not even the state and definitely not the federal government.

I too agree in principle, but I also think that there may be limits of public taste and decency - as long as it applies to public land.

If the overwhelming local opinion is that really want to keep a Confederate memorial then I guess they can do that. I'd be less sanguine if there was a marginal decision in closed session to erect a statue to the KKK featuring figures in hoods carrying out a lynching outside the local court house.
 
I can understand this in principle. One problem might be defining a public monument. Would an architectural style, relief, or mural of an historical event count a s monument?

Depends on the contract for construction and if the government negotiated the contract.
 

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