Yes and No. The people injured by the car moving forward are not necessarily the bad guys. Some were, some weren't.


Those who were "the bad guys", what would they have been guilty of? ETA: And by what authority was Mr. Fields justified in running them down? As we've seen, he was under no apparent or immediate personal threat from the crowd.

The people who were injured when the car went in reverse were definitely bad guys. They rushed the vehicle and began attacking it, clearly intending harm to the driver of the vehicle


Or... they were rushing toward the scene of terrible incident in order to render aid and were not expecting Mr. Fields to back over them.
 
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Yes, that's five posts before


Yeah, I misread that part of your post and edited mine to read, "It's not my burden to make sure you're informed of my postings. That you missed my note of the audible acceleration for nearly 4 pages is on you."

Don't get fussy with me because you wasted a lot of time and effort.
 
Yeah, I misread that part of your post and edited mine to read, "It's not my burden to make sure you're informed of my postings. That you missed my note of the audible acceleration for nearly 4 pages is on you."

Don't get fussy with me because you wasted a lot of time and effort.


I didn't waste any time and effort. I like doing things like this (not least because I'm fabulous at them), and myself and those who followed and understood what I presented learned a lot about the incident.

I got "fussy" with you because of your knee-jerk ideology-driven reactions early in the thread.
 
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It's amazing what is "clear" to people seeing these videos.

It's not clear at all to me that he was under attack, although I'm willing to admit the possibility, and listen to evidence. Even if he wasn't literally under attack, he may have perceived some imminent danger. Once again, that isn't evident from the videos, but it must be considered one possibility, and we should be willing to entertain evidence of that sort.

Also, even if he was in fact under attack or in reasonable fear for his safety, he is not allowed to defend himself "in anyway possible". There are limits even then.


What is clear to me from the videos is that a lot of people showed up to that rally armed, creating a very dangerous situation with the possibility of violence. That's very troubling. However, Mr. Fields' actions were his own. He will have to defend himself against the charge that he deliberately killed one person while attempting to kill more. It's up to him (and his lawyers) to mount such a defense, and he should be given the opportunity to do so in court. It seems like a tough sell.

From this video you can see a group of men rush the vehicle from the rear after it has come to a stop and begin attacking it from different angles. At that point, Mr. Fields was under attack and reasonably feared for his life. And he is allowed to defend himself in any way possible until he is no longer in reasonable fear for his life. That much is clear to me.

I don't know what happened prior to what we've see on video. We do know that the PD forced the alt-right to disperse into smaller and smaller groups and refused to protect them from a large, well-armed mob of antifa chimping out as they left the park. I know how antifa conduct themselves at public gatherings like this. It's definitely possible that Mr. Fields had already been attacked and was trying to flee when the accident occurred. This scenario is much more plausible than the idea that this was a deliberate terrorist attack.

The reason that I doubt the deliberate terrorist attack narrative is that, if that is what it was, the authorities would have some evidence of that and the media would be shouting it from the mountaintops. The longer we go without the media telling us that this is a confirmed terrorist attack and providing us with evidence to support that conclusion, the more likely it is that it wasn't.

I predict that this story will slowly slip out of the spotlight when it becomes clear that it doesn't support the "alt right are all nazi terroristic murderers" narrative.

Kind of like what happened to that crazy Bernie supporter who yelled mean things at those muslim teenagers and then stabbed two people up in Oregon.
 
And he is allowed to defend himself in any way possible until he is no longer in reasonable fear for his life.


He deliberately drove into a crowd of people, killing one and injuring up to 19 others. He has committed a crime. He is not innocent of further death and injury he may cause while attempting to flee the scene of that crime and the people he's angered in the commission of that crime.

If he, even accidentally, shot several people, he is not justified in shooting even more people in his escape.
 
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He deliberately drove into a crowd of people, killing one and injuring up to 19 others. He has committed a crime. He is not innocent of further death and injury he may cause while attempting to flee the scene of that crime and the people he's angered in the commission of that crime.

If he, even accidentally, shot several people, he is not justified in shooting even more people in his escape.

Hmmm...not sure sure about that. Was he acting in self defense when he drove in reverse over the group?

Another thing to think about is whether or not the group would have attacked the car if he hadn't just used it to ram into the crowd. I'm guessing probably not.
 
I predict that this story will slowly slip out of the spotlight when it becomes clear that it doesn't support the "alt right are all nazi terroristic murderers" narrative.

Yes, I think that narrative has become a little less clear, at least. If things continue as they are, I think they will definitely start to become more violent.
 
A few swastikas doesn't make everybody protesting a "Nazi" any more than a few hammer and sickles make all the counter-protestors "Commies."

I love how the narrative has become that it is not unusual to find people who aren't white nationalists at a white nationalist rally.

Imagine if this had been an ISIS rally. Not only would exactly zero of these people be making the same argument, but any violence visited upon attendees of an ISIS rally by counter protesters would be celebrated.
 
He deliberately drove into a crowd of people, killing one and injuring up to 19 others. He has committed a crime. He is not innocent of further death and injury he may cause while attempting to flee the scene of that crime and the people he's angered in the commission of that crime.

If he, even accidentally, shot several people, he is not justified in shooting even more people in his escape.

Does anyone happen to really know the law as it actually applies here? What I'm referring to is the idea of justified actions taken as self defense after a crime has been committed.

In this case, he appears to have committed some sort of crime by ramming the crowd. We'll let the jury and/or plea bargainers decide, but it appears that way. Then, he is attacked by the crowd. He isn't merely trying to escape, as in trying to evade capture. He has a reasonable fear for his life at that point. Under those circumstances, can someone claim self defense?

To separate the question from the particulars of this specific incident, let's take a hypothetical. A burglar breaks into a home he thinks is empty, only to discover that a woman is in the house. She sees him, and dives for her cell phone, presumably to call 911. He shoots her, and she dies. At that point, the woman's husband comes home, and sees the burglar and his dead wife. Enraged, he attacks the burglar, and puts his hands on the burglar's throat. He clearly intends to kill the burglar. The burglar finds the gun, and shoots the man dead.

Has he committed one murder, or two?

I think, generally, that all deaths that are the result of a crime are the criminal's responsibility, so that would mean two murders. However, technically, the assault on the burglar by the husband was, itself, a crime, even if no jury would convict the guy.

Now, back to Charlottesville. The driver committed a crime by running into the crowd, but the people who set upon his car with baseball bats committed a crime by doing so. Can the guy claim self defense for any assault committed while attempting to flee from those attackers? Or has he lost the right to such a claim because the assault was a consequence of the driver's crime of running into the crowd?

To my way of thinking, it looks like the only people assaulted by the car while it was going in reverse were people who were attacking the car, and it sure looks to me like they were presenting a deadly threat to the driver. Therefore, he is justified in reversing the car, even if it poses a threat to the attackers. I'm just not sure what the law says about it.
 
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To my way of thinking, it looks like the only people assaulted by the car while it was going in reverse were people who were attacking the car, and it sure looks to me like they were presenting a deadly threat to the driver. Therefore, he is justified in reversing the car, even if it poses a threat to the attackers. I'm just not sure what the law says about it.

It isn't an easy answer to Google. If we were to classify it as self defense that injured bystanders, this would be at the junction of a bunch of issues.
 
Don't intentionally drive into a crowd of baseball bat wielding protesters and kill one of them?

This. It's not like he was on the way to the grocery store and was suddenly surrounded. He drove towards the protesters. Did he think they would just let him drive through them without causing a reaction?
 
Yes, I think that narrative has become a little less clear, at least. If things continue as they are, I think they will definitely start to become more violent.

They already killed one person and sent several more to the hospital. I'm not sure how much more violent these right wing hate groups can get.

Maybe next time you attend one of their rallies - which I'm told is a perfectly normal thing to do - you can ask them what their plans are.
 
At that point, Mr. Fields was under attack and reasonably feared for his life. And he is allowed to defend himself in any way possible until he is no longer in reasonable fear for his life. That much is clear to me.

Having committed several felonies in front of numerous witnesses, those who swarmed the car were justified in using any amount of force, including lethal force, to subdue this assailant IMO.

I'm no fan of violent lefties and indeed, I see them as nothing more than spoiled overgrown children who think smashing things and shouting down people they don't like is acceptable behavior. From my experience, they're mostly from well-off families and believe adversity is having to make do with last year's iPhone because mother hasn't gotten around to buying them the latest one. That bitch.

That said, I wouldn't have given a **** if they ripped that nazi out of his car, tore him limb from from, arranging the pieces in a swastika as an impromptu memorial.
 
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They already killed one person and sent several more to the hospital. I'm not sure how much more violent these right wing hate groups can get.

Yes, I know. But that was one guy, and it's still not clear what happened. Even if we for the sake of argument assume that he deliberately was trying to kill as many as possible, it's still one guy. I'm not aware of too many incidents with white nationalists showing up and attacking people. Are you? I think that currently, that is more of the SOP of Antifa/BML/BAMN.
 
Two. You don't get to claim self-defense when your illegal harming of someone causes someone or ones to prevent you from doing further harm.
If you walk up and punch someone in the face, you can't claim self defense in shooting him because he punches back.

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Anyone that thinks that the driver was scared or something needs to explain these two images and in particular the people and signs I have highlighted.

15579599a46b28de7a.jpg


15579599a46b2c0793.jpg


It's pretty clear that the car was well and truly inside the group of protesters before it was struck.
 
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Anyone that thinks that the driver was scared or something needs to explain these two images and in particular the people and signs I have highlighted.

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/15579599a46b28de7a.jpg[/qimg]

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/15579599a46b2c0793.jpg[/qimg]

It's pretty clear that the car was well and truly inside the group of protesters before it was struck.

I would be terrified if someone struck my car with a stick.
 
This. It's not like he was on the way to the grocery store and was suddenly surrounded. He drove towards the protesters. Did he think they would just let him drive through them without causing a reaction?

White Nationalist Chris Cantwell said the counterprotesters were too stupid to get out of the way. (Saw this on an excerpt of the Vice documentary shown on Meet the Press.)
 
I would be terrified if someone struck my car with a stick.

Except in this case the person that struck the car with the stick had just avoided being run over by the driver, as evidenced by his position in the first image. Along with the fact that the dar was already well into the group of protesters when it got hit, was all that because he was scared of future things?
 

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