Ed Dueling protests spark state of emergency in Virginia.

[The Big Dog]

If I made up the fact that you're not holding the two sides to the same standard, you should be able to quote all the posts in this thread in which you've done exactly that.

We'll all be holding our breath waiting for that to happen.



Your dedication to pretending that's what this is about for you is almost admirable.

Yet you are incapable of actually showing where I said what you claim. Shock

It ain't about me, plenty of Nazi accusations to go around

 

[Emily's Cat]

Emily's Cat, I suggest you take a break to sufficiently familiarize yourself with the events of this past weekend and the people involved in those events. You're clearly in need of catching up. Here's a little help:

Alleged driver of car that plowed into Charlottesville crowd was a Nazi sympathizer, former teacher says

“It was obvious that he had this fascination with Nazism and a big idolatry of Adolf Hitler,” the teacher said.​

If you're not willing to make the effort, that's understandable, but if that's the case, you should probably find something else to do.

Ahh... I see. He was the only person at the rally, correct?

Or does the logic play out more like this... This guy was a Nazi, and he was a murdering jerk... therefore everyone else who was there who wasn't a counter-protester was also a Nazi! Unassailable thinking there.

 

[Emily's Cat]

a) That's a matter of semantics.
b) EVERY PERSON MARCHING WITH THOSE NAZIS IS SCUM!!!

Would you say there were very fine people on the Nazi side?
That is a yes/no question.
And it's not virtue signalling - it is a legitimate question as we are discussing what Trump said - and he said that. So we need to be clear if what he said was correct or incorrect.

Some of the people there were marching in protest of the statue being removed.

Not everyone who opposed the removal of that statue is a Nazi.

How the hell hard is this?

 

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Of course that is what you're doing.

I'm fairly certain I'm far more aware of my own intentions than you, given the nature of our relationship (i.e. non-existent).

Otherwise you would have to condemn all the other groups who identify with a group that committed genocide in the past...

You seem to believe that I would have a problem with that.

(some of which you probably sympathize with).

I admit, I'm equally flattered and confused by your sudden fascination with me on a personal level. However, I don't believe such attention is appropriate here.

 

[johnny karate]

Lol, no you aren't. You haven't been talking about that murdering crapball for pages! Pretty sure we all agree that he was a murderer, and should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Case closed, no more thread, right? But here we are 40 pages in, because that's not at all what is being discussed.

At this point, you could earn yourself a little credibility by just admitting you were wrong about the murderer not being a Nazi instead of amping up your misguided and demonstrably ill-informed attack.

 

[Checkmite]

I see Nazis as Nazis. I also see that Trump is soft on - or even curious of - Nazis.

Well if you're worried that Trump is actually a nazi, allow me to set your mind at ease - he's not. He is casually racist, and probably casually white-supremacist, but I don't think he's a fire-the-ovens nazi. He is sweet on Nazis because they are constantly praising him, and he can't not be endeared by flattery.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Thank you for quoting the proof that Trump actually expressed a conviction that there were very fine people marching with Nazis, KKK, White Supremacists.

Or do you deny that he said that?

Because you know, the Unite the Right demonstration was organized and registered by Nazis and White Supremacists. Did you hear the slogans they shouted? Did you see the symbols they carried?
Do you think there were "very fine people" on both sides?

Sure, yeah, I see. Anyone who doesn't vehemently and vitriolically oppose anything that has any association with anyone that could be considered a racists is just as bad as a racist.

OMG - I'm pretty sure that a white supremacists went to the park down the road from me the other day. That's a shame, I really liked that park, but I guess I can't go there anymore. It's been tainted by that evil sinner. I can't tolerate that in the interest of enjoying a nice walk in the trees. That would make me a tacit supporter of racism!

I think that some of the people at the rally were opposing the removal of the statue, and were not racists, nor even remotely Nazis. So yes, I think it's reasonable to say that *some* of the people on both sides were very fine people.

 

[Tony]

I'm fairly certain I'm far more aware of my own intentions than you, given the nature of our relationship (i.e. non-existent).

Then I'm sorry to have misjudged you.

 

[johnny karate]

Some of the people there were marching in protest of the statue being removed.

Not everyone who opposed the removal of that statue is a Nazi.

How the hell hard is this?

It was a rally sponsored by white nationalists. It was white nationalists who acquired the permit for the rally. In short, it was a white nationalist rally.

So exactly who are these other people who just happened to be innocently part of that same rally? Who are these "very fine people" who stood shoulder-to-shoulder with people waving Nazi flags and chanting anti-Semitic slogans?

 

[Emily's Cat]

The President made a positive claim: There were very fine people on the Nazi side.

Only if you assume that every single person protesting the removal of the statue were Nazis!

ETA: Or alternatively if you believe that anyone who holds any belief in common with a Nazi, regardless of whether that belief is actually a Nazi belief, is just as bad as a Nazi.

 

[Oystein]

Some of the people there were marching in protest of the statue being removed.

Not everyone who opposed the removal of that statue is a Nazi.

How the hell hard is this?

You are forgetting the part where
* The rally was organized and registered by overt Nazis
* The overt Nazis, in lockstep with KKK and other overt hate groups, shoutred racial slurs and anti-semitic slogans
* The Nazi scum showed overtly racist and nazi symbols.

I notice that you choose, no doubt with deliberation NOT to answer my question, which was:

Would you say there were very fine people on the Nazi side?
Please quote that question, and please answer that question - the options are yes/no/I don't know.

Please do consider if very fine people (according to YOUR moral imperatives) march in lockstep with overt nazis shouting anti-semitic slogans!

Remember that the President said that very fine people do this.


After your answer, or non-answer, I shall know whether you are a deliberate nazi enabler.

 

[johnny karate]

Only if you assume that every single person protesting the removal of the statue were Nazis!

We don't have to assume. We can look at the flyer they made up that tells us who they are.

 

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Ahh... I see. He was the only person at the rally, correct?

Or does the logic play out more like this... This guy was a Nazi, and he was a murdering jerk... therefore everyone else who was there who wasn't a counter-protester was also a Nazi! Unassailable thinking there.

It would appear that your criticism, then, is of the use of the plural "Nazis" instead of the singular "Nazi". The intensity with which you pursue pedantry is impressive, but rather asymmetrical in this instance. It's a short step between one and two.

But, while the error was not mine, consider it acknowledged. Now, what's next?

 

[johnny karate]

Ahh... I see. He was the only person at the rally, correct?

Or does the logic play out more like this... This guy was a Nazi, and he was a murdering jerk... therefore everyone else who was there who wasn't a counter-protester was also a Nazi! Unassailable thinking there.

Have you seriously not seen the photos and videos of these people?

Cl1mh4224rd is right. You need to take some time and familiarize yourself with the facts. Because you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Oystein]

Only if you assume that every single person protesting the removal of the statue were Nazis!

ETA: Or alternatively if you believe that anyone who holds any belief in common with a Nazi, regardless of whether that belief is actually a Nazi belief, is just as bad as a Nazi. And if you believe that a single belief held by a person is enough to make them unequivocally bad people.

It is EXTREMELY telling that you chose, no doubt deliberately, to NOT quote me fully, as the next sentence was:

Do very fine people, according to YOUR moral standards, EC, go to a rally organized by White Supremacists, using Nazi symbolism, shouting racist and Nazi slogans?

So don't give me no crap about what I assume - you saw that I asked you very specifically what YOU think about people marching in lockstep with Nazis who show Nazi symbols and shout racist slurs!

Please answer: Do very fine people, according to YOUR moral standards, EC, go to a rally organized by White Supremacists, using Nazi symbolism, shouting racist and Nazi slogans?

 

[Stacko]

It was a rally sponsored by white nationalists. It was white nationalists who acquired the permit for the rally. In short, it was a white nationalist rally.

So exactly who are these other people who just happened to be innocently part of that same rally? Who are these "very fine people" who stood shoulder-to-shoulder with people waving Nazi flags and chanting anti-Semitic slogans?

To add to this; here's the excellent Vice piece making it very clear that it was impossible to be involved with the rally and not notice you were supporting Nazis:



And here's (again) the promotional poster for the rally loaded with white nationalist symbols and promoting a bevy of white nationalist speakers:

You'd have to have severe brain damage not to realize you were participating in a Nazi rally if you weren't there to oppose it.

 

[dudalb]

Only if you assume that every single person protesting the removal of the statue were Nazis!

ETA: Or alternatively if you believe that anyone who holds any belief in common with a Nazi, regardless of whether that belief is actually a Nazi belief, is just as bad as a Nazi.

Any legitimate protestor, of the more benign "My Great Grand Daddy fought with Lee and I don't want the statue taken down." type, would have taken one look at that torchlight parade, and got the hell out of there. You lie down with Nazis, you get fleas.

 

[Emily's Cat]

We don't have to assume. We can look at the flyer they made up that tells us who they are.

I see. And those were the only people who showed up?

 

[Emily's Cat]

It is EXTREMELY telling that you chose, no doubt deliberately, to NOT quote me fully, as the next sentence was:

Do very fine people, according to YOUR moral standards, EC, go to a rally organized by White Supremacists, using Nazi symbolism, shouting racist and Nazi slogans?

So don't give me no crap about what I assume - you saw that I asked you very specifically what YOU think about people marching in lockstep with Nazis who show Nazi symbols and shout racist slurs!

Please answer: Do very fine people, according to YOUR moral standards, EC, go to a rally organized by White Supremacists, using Nazi symbolism, shouting racist and Nazi slogans?

What's the point of answering your questions when they're based on a false premise?

+++

I judge people by their actions, not their beliefs. And being an ignorant ass is insufficient to decide that a person is completely evil. Sorry, but I really do avoid condemning entire swaths of people on the basis of their thought crimes.

I don't give a crap what symbols they're showing, no more than I care about people waving around crosses or american flags, or wearing che guevera shirts. I don't care what they're saying when they are in public spaces and within their rights to free speech. I don't care what they believe, or even what they preach. I care about whether they violate the rights of other people.

 

[trustbutverify]

Couple of points, not all anti-facists are Antifa.

The women were wearing tshirts that said "Quaker." That does not actually mean that they were. By the way, you know who was a Quaker?

Nixon?