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Ed Dueling protests spark state of emergency in Virginia.

Oystein said:
That's an "if", did you notice?
Did counter-protesors actually start trying to kill the Neo-Nazis?
Also, do you not notice that you are lumping some militant counter-protestors with all the peaceful protestors, especially the local population that had decided, through proper democratic processes to rid their city of a monument to a fighter for slavery?


The violence, and the death, came from the Nazis - did you not notice?


Trump said, very specifically, that there are "very fine" people on the side of the Nazis and the White Supremacists that gathered in Charlottesville with weapons and shields to intimidate the local population.

Now you: Was Trump "right in what he said"? Do you also claim there are "very fine" people marching with Nazis and White Supremacists?
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You are doing the same "lumping" that you are accusing me of doing! This is too funny!
 
Scopedog said:
There are no heroic national socialists.
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Yet there are plenty of heroic Communists. I wonder why the dramatic difference?

Would you expect to be spared during a communist purge?
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I'd say my chances were about the same as a native American's during the genocidal massacres. Guess that makes US style free-market democracy just as bad as Communism and Nazism.
 
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trustbutverify said:
Yet there are plenty of heroic Communists. I wonder why the dramatic difference?


I'd say my chances were about the same as a native American's during the genocidal massacres. Guess that makes US style free-market democracy just as bad as Communism and Nazism.
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Are you obliquely defending Antifa (a distinct group completely separate from people who are against actual fascism)?
 
Emily's Cat said:
Seems to be how it goes. Unless you go full-on frothing-at-the-mouth ranting about how bad every single thing about Trump is all the time with no break for breath... you're a racist, or a bigot, or you're stupid (only dressed up with fancier words). You'd think that self-proclaimed skeptics might look at my body of work and see a consistent pattern of arguing for social recognition of privilege, overhaul of the justice system to remove institutional racial bias, consideration of social expectations that factor into career limitations for women and minorities, the importance of fully-funded post-secondary education made available to all citizens regardless of wealth, and a redesign of the welfare system to address root causes of poverty rather then just perpetuating the cycle by barely shoring up the holes after the damage has been done to developing children. But you know, I don't absolutely hate Trump without consideration for fact, so clearly, I'm a racist bigot sexist deplorable scumbag, rethuglican, bad person... :boggled:
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Well said! I AGREE! I stopped posting on the JREF forums many years ago because the irrational left-wing liberals on that forum were losing so badly on the points of facts, logic and critical thinking.
 
It occurs to me this is yet more examples of a country filled with people who only seem to understand how to be against something. This tends to eventually devolve down to being against perceived threats. We also seem to be really limited in our selection of tactics in dealing with threats. Mostly abusive language and violence. If someone questions the objective threat level in context or the current methods of resistance, they might also be a threat.

ETA: Also "one man's freedom fighter..."
 
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BobTheCoward said:
Then you are being dishonest about the evidence.
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Your failure to convince me (and others) is not evidence you are correctly assessing the evidence and the rest of us are 'dishonest'. :rolleyes:

You have a repeating problem failing to separate your opinions from your asserted facts.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Your failure to convince me (and others) is not evidence you are correctly assessing the evidence and the rest of us are 'dishonest'. :rolleyes:

You have a repeating problem failing to separate your opinions from your asserted facts.
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I didn't assert any facts on this. That is the issue here, a lack of facts from the one side making an assertion.

I'm not the one trying to convince people as I am not asserting a claim on this.
 
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sir drinks-a-lot said:
Who is "they" in this case? Was everyone there part of an official group that presented their reason for being there?
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If there were individuals who chose to attend and make no attempt to distinguish themselves or clarify their own positions while the crowds around them gave nazi-inspired salutes and complained about Jews and chanted "white lives matter" around a statue of Robert Lee, it's not my job to divine their existence or magick up perfectly innocuous reasons for them to have been there. People who willingly march shoulder-to-shoulder with professed nazis and white nationalists are the kind of people who have no problem with that message.
 
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Oh good lord, now I'm seeing/hearing folks trying to find their local antifa or looking for others interested in starting one.

I have no doubt that racist/nazi hate groups are likely finding the same.

Same as we learned about street gangs, same as we learned about terrorism, it's about identities and who you feel is a threat to you driving you into a further extreme of your own 'for protection.'

ETA: rocks, throwing stars, metal poles, and adolescent angst that should have worn off a decade ago vs. bushmasters and glocks. Should be over quick, if nothing else. Might even solve the Republicans' shrinking demographics problem.
 
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Delphic Oracle said:
Oh good lord, now I'm seeing/hearing folks trying to find their local antifa or looking for others interested in starting one.

I have no doubt that racist/nazi hate groups are likely finding the same.

Same as we learned about street gangs, same as we learned about terrorism, it's about identities and who you feel is a threat to you driving you into a further extreme of your own 'for protection.'

ETA: rocks, throwing stars, metal poles, and adolescent angst that should have worn off a decade ago vs. bushmasters and glocks. Should be over quick, if nothing else. Might even solve the Republicans' shrinking demographics problem.
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Nothing like a little whimsy when contemplating death, eh? Perhaps they'll just continue to use cars as murder weapons. Did that give you a chuckle, too?
 
BobTheCoward said:
I didn't assert any facts on this. That is the issue here, a lack of facts from the one side making an assertion.

I'm not the one trying to convince people as I am not asserting a claim on this.
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So we come back to your lack of verbal precision, using the pronoun, "we", when "I" was called for.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
So we come back to your lack of verbal precision, using the pronoun, "we", when "I" was called for.
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The "we" is correct. You claim to know. You haven't presented anything to suggest it is more than idle speculation. You don't actually know.

I guess you could actually have the evidence and simply not presented it. In that case you would know.
 
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Emily's Cat said:
Pretty sure I'm not edgy. Also pretty sure I'm not a Trump supporter.

Also pretty sure I'm sick to death of identity politics, social justice warriors, and the presumed ends justifying the obviously bad means. Also really tired of the media circus and the complete suspension of disbelief in light of anything that lets the slavering masses of trump-haters get their daily fix of oh-so-arousing "righteous" hatred.

Seriously. Trump expressed disapproval of both white supremacists and antifa... and that somehow got spun as him showing support of white supremacists because he didn't call them out for being horrible. Great. But calling out only the white supremacists ;lends implicit support to antifa.
This is in an environment where the antifa goons have been enacting threats and violence to deny people of their civil liberties and constitutional rights.

Yes, white supremacists are jerks and I deplore their beliefs. I also deplore the beliefs of your average christian. But I absolutely do not support the use or threat of violence in order to deny horrible people their rights. That antifa is being lauded for their actions, that they are held up as "better than" the people their attacking because you don't like their beliefs is a bigger threat to democracy and freedom than any stupid ignorant racist turdball is. Hell - we all KNOW that the turdball is a turdball. But with antifa, they get shined up and presented as if that kitty-roca is a delectable treat instead of the pile of crap rolled in litter that they actually are.

But hey - I don't agree with the horde of 'everything Trump does is by definition bad because he's Trump' and I actually bother to try to find evidence rather than just drooling over the latest bit of speculative gossip and accepting it as confirmation of my bias. And that ends up making me... let's see... a Trump supporter, a racist, a deplorable, and oh yeah - let's not forget that I've obviously been 'conned' by the 'false narrative' and I've 'fallen for the scam' and I've 'swallowed the lies' or whatever the newest nose-in-the-air elitist virtue-signaling term is used as a replacement for 'you must be stupid for not believing the same thing as me'.
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Trump expressed disapproval of both sides and also saif that there were good people on both sides.

That's saying that not all violent racists are bad.
 
jimbob said:
Trump expressed disapproval of both sides and also saif that there were good people on both sides.

That's saying that not all violent racists are bad.
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Well from his perspective, the ones that voted for him are fine, patriotic Amercians ;)
 
Foolmewunz said:
Nothing like a little whimsy when contemplating death, eh? Perhaps they'll just continue to use cars as murder weapons. Did that give you a chuckle, too?
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When you use "they" in that, did you have some particular group you think is going to preferentially use cars as weapons in protests? I've been thinking automobiles were equal access, disconnected from ideology and simply convenient.
 
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