Ed Dueling protests spark state of emergency in Virginia.

[dudalb]

Your definition of the word "defends" is very uneducated and you are in dire need of a dictionary. As well as a reading comprehension course.

You put the blame on the anti Nazi demonstrators instead of the Nazi Murdereres. Just like Dear Leader wanted......

 

[easycruise]

You put the blame on the anti Nazi demonstrators instead of the Nazi Murdereres. Just like Dear Leader wanted......

Once again, you prove that you are in dire need of a reading comprehension course. What Trump said was true, both sides were to blame. For the violence that took place.

 

[johnny karate]

Once again, you prove that you are in dire need of a reading comprehension course. What Trump said was true, both sides were to blame. For the violence that took place.

Both sides are to blame for the murder that took place?

 

[Oystein]

...if the counter-protestors show up with baseball bats and start trying to physically kill the Neo-Nazis,

That's an "if", did you notice?
Did counter-protesors actually start trying to kill the Neo-Nazis?
Also, do you not notice that you are lumping some militant counter-protestors with all the peaceful protestors, especially the local population that had decided, through proper democratic processes to rid their city of a monument to a fighter for slavery?

then they have lost ALL of the "moral high ground" that they once had. Physical violence is much worse than hate speech. You know it and I know it.

The violence, and the death, came from the Nazis - did you not notice?

Trump is right in what he said.

Trump said, very specifically, that there are "very fine" people on the side of the Nazis and the White Supremacists that gathered in Charlottesville with weapons and shields to intimidate the local population.

Now you: Was Trump "right in what he said"? Do you also claim there are "very fine" people marching with Nazis and White Supremacists?

 

[CapelDodger]

If you defend the Nazis, you are scum. End of discussion.

Defending a Nazi's rights as an individual is righteous behaviour. Explaining the path an individual takes to becoming a Nazi is righteous. Arguing that an individual Nazi is not a totally ruined human being is not.

 

[Oystein]

Here is a post from the German language blog of Marina Weisband, a young political talent I admire for the clarity of her thoughts. Weisband, and immigrant from the Ukraine, was a few years ago much involved with the then rising Pirate Party in Germany, but stepped away in the turmoil that the Pirates inflicted on themselves in short order. She has dropped a bit out of sight since, unfortunately.

http://marinaweisband.de/trump-muss-kein-nazi-sein-und-das-ist-der-punkt/

I did a translation to English - all errors are mine:

I was awake tonight and have followed with disbelief the press conference, in which President Trump somehow managed to screw up every little detail, which ione would expect a President to do after riots of literal nazis and the death by terrorism of a young woman. On Twitter I felt as one of the many shocked, who observed as the traditional "leader of the free world" relativated right-wing violence to a point, where he literally defended Nazis and the KKK. I read the tweets of gratitude to Trump, written by ex-KKK grandmaster Duke and the Alt-right founder Spencer, and I thought: Now this is the moment. The President exchanged his dog whistle for a trumpet. He doesn't do this secretly and longer. The USA have a Nazi as President.

But the worst is: Trump doesn't even make this out of conviction. He is not a convinced Nazi.

We talk of "he let his mask drop". But this is premised on him being able to have a coherent value system with purposes, to hide this then behind a mask to grab power, and now to let the mask fall now. He has, however, proven lately at every opportunity that he is not capable of constructing such a value system and to pursue his purposes with concentration. He is impulsive, lead by emotions, and above all dominated by his über-big, fragile ego. He changes his uttered convictions as fast has his audience demmands.

Don't get me wrong, he is quite a straight racist, sexist and classist. He believes in having superior genes, as he has expressed in various interviews since the 90s. But behind these convictions there is no theoretical construct, no ideology in which he believes with his heart and for which he would fight. He believes in the superiority of the rivch, white man, simply because he is one. His racism is not the product of a world of thought, but of an absence of such. He is not a men's rights promoter, there's no fire for his sexism, he just has it. That's the difference between those writing White Supremacy blogs and confabulationg stuff about genes, and those who read them occasionally, nodding, because it all appears plausible somehow.

Trump doesn't love an ideology of race superiority. He loves himself and clings to everything and everyone who validates and loves him. At the moment, that's stalwart Nazis. And so he grooms them, employs them, feeds them, until they again are a relevant movement in the american society, until perhaps they are in power. He does not have to be a stalwart Nazi to open stalwart Nazis the door.

My point here is this: You all know folks who, to some degree, do sexist and racist talk. And it bothers you, gets on your nerves, but those are acquantances or family, and you know that these people aren't Nazis in their hearts. And they aren't. But they don't have to be to be dangerous! Sure, it's not very likely that your racist aunt will become president of a powerful country. But she doesn't need to. Because people like this have voted Trump.

People who are not thinking about their racism or sexism. People who say there are more important problems in society than discrimination. It wouldn't be central how the candidate talks about women or blacks, as long as he creates jobs. That's why they vote for people who open the doors for radical powers.

That's why we point towards sexism and racism again and again. Not because we live in an sensible, effeminate time, when politicians "must not be real men anymore", or "the sensitivities of each minority must be considered". But, first, because these things are always wrong, and, secondly, because they are never unimportant.

The USA are a dunning example. We, in a country that for so many years overlooked and fed the NSU, which avoids its daily racism like a sore wound, must pay attention. Always. Because even when we feel there are no real Nazis, or they could never come to power, this possibility always stands at the next corner, ready ro roll ovver us, while we stand surprised with open mouths.​

 

[CapelDodger]

That was before the Tuesday News COnference.

But be a good little Trumpet and always obey and praise Dear Leader.
If you have not noted a good many conservatives have turned on Trump over this. The terms "Morally unfit to be President" was used by several.

Trump has had a serious bump on the Pariah Scale this week.

 

[dudalb]

And the protest seems in one regard to have backfired:Many citied across the Nation are removing monuments glorifying the Confederacy. The Lost Cause has Lost Again.
Note to the Neo Confederates: That is what happens when you make buddies with Nazis.......

 

[xjx388]

Not sure why you bring up the hate requirement, but Ill say that I don't really feel hatred towards others very often. Frustration, maybe, at times.

Why do I think the crackpot left, antifa, communists, etc. are more dangerous than the crackpot right, white supremacist, nationalists, etc? There are a couple of reasons. The first is that in recent history in the US, the former have resorted to violence much more often and have acted out against free speech with all of the university stuff, the stuff at trump rallies, and even some previous white supremacist/nationalist rallies that would likely have been peaceful had they not arrived. So, yeah, armed thugs beating those that disagree = bad.

That. But more fundamentally, antifa et. al. are more dangerous because, as this thread demonstrates, they are perceived as the "good guys" by too many people on the left just because they share certain political views. We dasn't call out the bad actors on the left because that means we support Nazis! It would be laughable if it wasn't so scary.

I support anti-illegal-immigration efforts. I want a secure border and to deport people who are here illegally. So do Nazis. Does this mean that I support Nazis?

I support taking down statues of Confederate "heroes." I'd like to remove the symbols of our racist past. So does Antifa. Does this mean that I support Antifa?

 

[trustbutverify]

And orders of magnitude more threatening to me than the antisemitism coming from the right. As I have pointed out countless times. I would sooner walk into a den of Illinois Nazis and debate their antisemitism with them than I would with a bunch of Communists or Antifa or SJWs on the campus of Yale University.

Gonna have to disagree there.

 

[Oystein]

Once again, you prove that you are in dire need of a reading comprehension course. What Trump said was true, both sides were to blame. For the violence that took place.

The dead victim was on the counter-protestor side.

Was SHE to blame for the violence that killed her?
Please explain EXACTLY what SHE did so wrong that her her own death is to be blamed on her.

 

[Childlike Empress]

As to the Daily Stormer, they had a brief comeback this afternoon as (who guesses it) dailystormer.ru. That lasted about an hour or two, as expected. Now cloudflare has kicked them as well, which means they are essentially toast for the foreseeable future, even if they can sue back their .com URL from google.

So I guess some simpletons have reason to celebrate now. I expressed my thoughts on that last night already.

 

[Tony Stark]

As to the Daily Stormer, they had a brief comeback this afternoon as (who guesses it) dailystormer.ru. That lasted about an hour or two, as expected. Now cloudflare has kicked them as well, which means they are essentially toast for the foreseeable future, even if they can sue back their .com URL from google.

So I guess some simpletons have reason to celebrate now. I expressed my thoughts on that last night already.

Nazis can get **********. They have zero right to use other people's property to spread their hate speech.

 

[Shalamar]

Once again, you prove that you are in dire need of a reading comprehension course. What Trump said was true, both sides were to blame. For the violence that took place.

It's always the 'leftists' fault. In fact, I bet it was the leftists fault that a Nazi ran over some of them with a car!

/s

 

[Emily's Cat]

It is my personal opinion you are either a Trump supporter in disguise or you are playing some kind of silly intellectual game to prove how edgy you are.

Pretty sure I'm not edgy. Also pretty sure I'm not a Trump supporter.

Also pretty sure I'm sick to death of identity politics, social justice warriors, and the presumed ends justifying the obviously bad means. Also really tired of the media circus and the complete suspension of disbelief in light of anything that lets the slavering masses of trump-haters get their daily fix of oh-so-arousing "righteous" hatred.

Seriously. Trump expressed disapproval of both white supremacists and antifa... and that somehow got spun as him showing support of white supremacists because he didn't call them out for being horrible. Great. But calling out only the white supremacists ;lends implicit support to antifa.
This is in an environment where the antifa goons have been enacting threats and violence to deny people of their civil liberties and constitutional rights.

Yes, white supremacists are jerks and I deplore their beliefs. I also deplore the beliefs of your average christian. But I absolutely do not support the use or threat of violence in order to deny horrible people their rights. That antifa is being lauded for their actions, that they are held up as "better than" the people their attacking because you don't like their beliefs is a bigger threat to democracy and freedom than any stupid ignorant racist turdball is. Hell - we all KNOW that the turdball is a turdball. But with antifa, they get shined up and presented as if that kitty-roca is a delectable treat instead of the pile of crap rolled in litter that they actually are.

But hey - I don't agree with the horde of 'everything Trump does is by definition bad because he's Trump' and I actually bother to try to find evidence rather than just drooling over the latest bit of speculative gossip and accepting it as confirmation of my bias. And that ends up making me... let's see... a Trump supporter, a racist, a deplorable, and oh yeah - let's not forget that I've obviously been 'conned' by the 'false narrative' and I've 'fallen for the scam' and I've 'swallowed the lies' or whatever the newest nose-in-the-air elitist virtue-signaling term is used as a replacement for 'you must be stupid for not believing the same thing as me'.

 

[CapelDodger]

I was in Charlottesville. Trump was wrong about violence on the left
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/aug/16/charlottesville-violence-right-left-trump

At the time they did this, they were being monitored by counter-protesters, some of whom were themselves armed. But the fact that they were watching was welcomed by West, who said: “We would have been crushed like cockroaches if it were not for the anarchists and the antifascists.”

I was near the bottom of the stairs that West was standing at the top of. I think he’s right. And bear in mind that he and everyone else in the counter-protest were promoting the values of antiracism, feminism, LGBT rights and equality.

There was violence from some counter-protesters. But most, like Heather Heyer, who was allegedly killed by one of the far-right marchers, were entirely peaceful.

Heyer’s killing and the injury of 20 people with a car was the culmination of a day where the right had come prepared for violence, appeared to be thirsting for it and committed far more of it than the other side. It was also a day when they gathered in the name of white supremacy.

Trump claims to have seen "alt-left" protesters charging at peaceful white supremacists engaging in a legal demonstration : did anybody else see them? One's bound to ask, given that Trump saw New Jersey Muslims clebrating 9/11 that nobody else saw. A pattern may be emerging.

 

[trustbutverify]

Here's the fundamental difference. Neo-Nazis may dislike me or distrust me for being Jewish, but they know that it is illegal to attack me physically, and they may even feel it is morally wrong unless I "start" something.

Whereas on the extreme left (I like to call it the Ctrl-Left rather than the Alt-Left), it is perfectly justified (in fact, it is practically a duty) to beat the crap out of a Nazi. So the risk there is that, during our discussion, they relabel me a Nazi and then beat me up. It is almost a certainty that I get relabeled a Nazi by such people when they find out that I do not support Obamacare.

Neo-Nazis don't "distrust or dislike" you and I. They hate us with a blistering, all encompassing passion and pray everyday for our extermination. Other subhumans can be useful for labor and such, but Jewishness is the root of all evil, and must be sterilized. They worship some of the very worst examples humanity has ever produced, and find the torture of innocents exhilarating.

On the other hand, I grew up around card carrying Communists... and they were some of the most humane, wonderful people I've ever met.

 

[dudalb]

I am not crazy about some of the Antifa crowd...I have a particular dislike for the Anarchists because of their penchant for wrecking innocent businesses that just happen to be on the street (I saw the doing this in Berkely) but it was the Nazis who provoked and caused the violence in Virginia, and it sure as hell was a Nazi who ran over Heyer. Moral Equivlency in this case is garbage.
If Trump had strongly condemned the Nazis, and then criticized the Antifa for their actions, he would have had a point. But that is not what he did. He equated the two and left the image that the Left was to blame.

 

[Oystein]

Trump claims to have seen "alt-left" protesters charging at peaceful white supremacists engaging in a legal demonstration : did anybody else see them?

Apparently, the writer of the article you just quoted saw them. You yourself quoted them:

"There was violence from some counter-protesters."​

Did you not read your own quote?

I wish there were a bit more detail about this.
Was there more violence from the Nazis, other than the fatal car incident?

 

[johnny karate]

That. But more fundamentally, antifa et. al. are more dangerous because, as this thread demonstrates, they are perceived as the "good guys" by too many people on the left just because they share certain political views. We dasn't call out the bad actors on the left because that means we support Nazis! It would be laughable if it wasn't so scary.

Another claim that the left is more dangerous based on nothing more than precious little fee-fees.

Actual data does not appear to be forthcoming.

I support anti-illegal-immigration efforts. I want a secure border and to deport people who are here illegally. So do Nazis. Does this mean that I support Nazis?

No.

I support taking down statues of Confederate "heroes." I'd like to remove the symbols of our racist past. So does Antifa. Does this mean that I support Antifa?

No.

Here's the difference: Nazis have a well-documented history of violence, brutality, and hatred. We actually fought a war against them. Their resume speaks for itself. These people who drape themselves in the emblems of our nation's enemies are purveyors of that same violence, brutality, and hatred. This is not a point of debate; it's an undisputed fact rooted in their ideology.

Furthermore, these people feel emboldened and empowered by the sad apologetics and false moral equivalencies (the same ones you are currently engaging in) by our president.

Now, explain to me how your Antifa boogey men compare to any of that.