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General Holocaust denial discussion Part III

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Hans said:
Any materials/links about those good folks?
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Browning in his book Ordinary Men discusses those men along with eager killers and those who "just" went along. Browning notes that the percentage of those who said "no" was small despite the fact that the men where told repeatedly that they could back out. The worst "punishment" they got for not taking part seems to have been some ridicule for being "weak" and "sentimental".

Goldhagen's book Hitler's Willing Executioners despite it's polemical nature also contains some useful material on these men.
 
Hans said:
Any materials/links about those good folks?
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Battel

https://www.bookdepository.com/Those-Who-Said-No-David-Kitterman/9781859731079

https://translate.google.co.nz/tran...e.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaus_Hornig&prev=search
Note: this page is translated from German - there doesn't appear to be an English language page

Hermann Goering's brother
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Göring

and of course the best known one of all

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oskar_Schindler
 
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Thanks to Elagabalus, SC & Pacal for the excellent references and comments. From that one book 'The Holocaust as seen by its perpetrators and bystanders' a small section:

6nnZJuT.jpg


It would seem our good friend suffers from what they mentioned aboved, 'Wegen Zu Grosser Weichheit', "on account of their great weakness". We see that in his inability to push the button.

I'm sure Adolph is shaking his head and 'tsk, tsking'.

Page 84 of Elagabalus' link
 
Thanks folks for tracking down recent references in reply to Hans's query. A slightly different angle here: It was known as early as the Einsatzgruppen trial in Nuremberg (NMT Trial IX, September 1947 - April 1948), in the context of pleadings concerning so-called superior orders, that Einsatzgruppen members were generally not compelled to participate in the mass murder actions and generally not punished for "softness" (non-participation). Defendants had tried using compulsion and potential execution as a defense for their roles in the killings, meaning that the claim about this is a Nazi defense strategy echoed to this very day, although exposed as hollow in 1947 and rejected in the tribunal's judgment in 1948. For example, in his opinion and judgment, chief tribunal judge Musmanno wrote as follow:

lFlZSSy.png


(NMT, Green series, vol IV, pp 481-482)
 
Yes, I again thank everyone for the material contributed. I had an additional question - what is the denier view of Generaloberst Johannes Blaskowitz and his complaint/actions? Additionally is there a translation of what he wrote?
 
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Saggy said:
You've missed the big one .... most denialists on most boards are banned. On this Clayton Moore, Thunder, these are two that I found out by happenstance, maybe someone should make a list ..... :)
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Thunder (formerly parky76) was a jewish guy from New York. I do not believe that he was a denier of the Holocaust. Clayton Moore was a conspiracy theorist, but I don't remember him posting on this topic, and I'm not taking the time to look.
 
carlitos said:
Thunder (formerly parky76) was a jewish guy from New York. I do not believe that he was a denier of the Holocaust. Clayton Moore was a conspiracy theorist, but I don't remember him posting on this topic, and I'm not taking the time to look.
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Clayton Moore made many posts in parts I and II of the Holocaust topic here.
 
Hans said:
Thanks for that, interesting that there were Germans willing to speak out.
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I saw a documentary a little while ago about Albert Goering, the brother of Nazi High Command member and Luftwaffe Commander, Reichsmarschall Hermann Goering.

Albert was a vehement anti-Nazi and took some extraordinary risks, using his relationship to his brother, including forging his brother's signature, to secure the freedom of hundreds of German Jews, getting them out of concentration camps, arranging exit visas and getting them out of the country.

Its an interesting story, but a sad one because he has never been properly recognized for what he did, and instead, spent two years in jail at the end of teh war because the Allies wouldn't believe him due to his last name. He died penniless and alone.

(I expect Saggy will consider him a traitor to the cause)
 
smartcooky said:
I saw a documentary a little while ago about Albert Goering, the brother of Nazi High Command member and Luftwaffe Commander, Reichsmarschall Hermann Goering.

Albert was a vehement anti-Nazi and took some extraordinary risks, using his relationship to his brother, including forging his brother's signature, to secure the freedom of hundreds of German Jews, getting them out of concentration camps, arranging exit visas and getting them out of the country.

Its an interesting story, but a sad one because he has never been properly recognized for what he did, and instead, spent two years in jail at the end of teh war because the Allies wouldn't believe him due to his last name. He died penniless and alone.

(I expect Saggy will consider him a traitor to the cause)
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He might, but as he refuses to push the button in the question I've ask him I'm sure if Hitler were around and heard that - he would indeed consider Saggy a traitor to both his Fuhrer and Aryans everywhere.
 
Saggy said:
Excavations? I guess they forgot.
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In The Tragedy in Lithuania: 1941-1944 New Documents on Lithuanian Collaborators During the Second World War 2008) we can find the following reports:

doc 13. REPORT OF THE MEDICO-LEGAL EXAMINATION
OF THE MASS GRAVE IN THE VICINITY OF THE TOWN OF ŽAGARE September 24, 1944 submitted by Assistant chief medico-legal expert of the 1st Baltic front, captain of medical service I PRIKHODKO; Medico-legal expert of the 51st army, captain of medical service FILYAKOV

doc 14. REPORT OF MEDICO-LEGAL VISUAL EXAMINATION OF THE SITE OF THE MASS GRAVE IN THE VICINITY OF ŽAGARE September 24, 1944 submitted by Assistant chief medico-legal expert of the 1st Baltic front, captain of medical service I PRIKHODKO; Medico-legal expert of the 51st army, captain of medical service FILYAKOV

doc 16. ACT ON CRIMES OF FASCIST AGGRESSORS AND THEIR ACCOMPLICES IN THE VICINITY OF THE CITY OF ŽAGARE October 5, 1944 submitted by Chairman of the Commission I Military Public Prosecutor 8 PAVKD

doc 17. SPECIAL REPORT ON MASS EXECUTIONS IN THE CITY OF ŽAGARE Top secret October 6, 1944; in addition to ours 20175/2

These 4 documents provide description of what investigators found following excavation of three mass graves (and examination of the remains discovered in these graves) at Žagare in Lithuania.

The following should be noted, of the three mass graves (one large, two small) studied:

- “The examination of corpses established that the destruction of Soviet civilians was carried out by execution from firearms, rifles, pistols, and submachine guns”

- from the large grave, a total of 2,402 corpses . . . exhumed, among them: 20 . . . corpses were subjected to full medico-legal examination, 2,382 corpses . . . were subjected to medical-legal visual examination”; corpses were also extracted and examined from the smaller graves

- “All the corpses, except for five Lithuanians, are Jewish”.

The final report (doc 17) notes the exhumation of 2,448 corpses. The corpses examined were reported to be

Corpses of men - 574
Corpses of women - 1,225
Corpses of children under 15 - 675
Corpses of babies - 24

Arithmetic was not the strong suit of those compiling doc 17 as their tally adds to 2,498, not 2,448, which means that they summed to less than the total - or made errors in the breakdown of corpses by sex and age. Earlier reports gave slightly varying totals (e.g., doc 16 has from grave 1 - 530 men, 1,223 women, and 625 children, thus "2,403 corpses were extracted" the total being off by 1, not 50 in this case; from grave 2 - "38 male corpses"; and from grave 3 - 8 corpses for a total of 2,424. And so on.)

Further, also from The Tragedy in Lithuania: 1941-1944 New Documents on Lithuanian Collaborators During the Second World War 2008 we can read docs 46 & 52 on the inspection of mass graves at "Ilokiai."

In doc 52 (doc 52 ACT ON CRIMES AND ATROCITIES OF FASCIST AGGRESSORS AND THEIR ACCOMPLICES IN THE ILOKIAI BOROUGH, THE MEŽEIKIAI UYEZD, THE LITHUANIAN SSR October 18-19 1944) in particular we are told that, following interrogations, the investigative commission examined three mass graves where witnesses had told that the town of Ilokiai’s Jews had been buried after being shot. In the three graves were reported to be*

- grave 1: “300 disorderly dumped corpses of men, women, and children in 4 layers” and without shoes and mostly undressed
- grave 2: “about 100 corpses”; “disorderly dumped corpses of men, women and children”
- grave 3: “3 corpses of men”

Again we confront a maths problem as the report says “So, in total, up to 475 corpses were revealed in the graves.” 47 of the corpses were examined; “all of the corpses have gunshot wounds in the top areas of the body, many corpses have several wounds, that evidences that the execution was carried out from small and automatic weapon.”
 
:D
LemmyCaution said:
In The Tragedy in Lithuania: 1941-1944 New Documents on Lithuanian Collaborators During the Second World War 2008) we can find the following reports:

doc 13. REPORT OF THE MEDICO-LEGAL EXAMINATION
OF THE MASS GRAVE IN THE VICINITY OF THE TOWN OF ŽAGARE September 24, 1944 submitted by Assistant chief medico-legal expert of the 1st Baltic front, captain of medical service I PRIKHODKO; Medico-legal expert of the 51st army, captain of medical service FILYAKOV

doc 14. REPORT OF MEDICO-LEGAL VISUAL EXAMINATION OF THE SITE OF THE MASS GRAVE IN THE VICINITY OF ŽAGARE September 24, 1944 submitted by Assistant chief medico-legal expert of the 1st Baltic front, captain of medical service I PRIKHODKO; Medico-legal expert of the 51st army, captain of medical service FILYAKOV

doc 16. ACT ON CRIMES OF FASCIST AGGRESSORS AND THEIR ACCOMPLICES IN THE VICINITY OF THE CITY OF ŽAGARE October 5, 1944 submitted by Chairman of the Commission I Military Public Prosecutor 8 PAVKD

doc 17. SPECIAL REPORT ON MASS EXECUTIONS IN THE CITY OF ŽAGARE Top secret October 6, 1944; in addition to ours 20175/2

These 4 documents provide description of what investigators found following excavation of three mass graves (and examination of the remains discovered in these graves) at Žagare in Lithuania.

The following should be noted, of the three mass graves (one large, two small) studied:

- “The examination of corpses established that the destruction of Soviet civilians was carried out by execution from firearms, rifles, pistols, and submachine guns”

- from the large grave, a total of 2,402 corpses . . . exhumed, among them: 20 . . . corpses were subjected to full medico-legal examination, 2,382 corpses . . . were subjected to medical-legal visual examination”; corpses were also extracted and examined from the smaller graves

- “All the corpses, except for five Lithuanians, are Jewish”.

The final report (doc 17) notes the exhumation of 2,448 corpses. The corpses examined were reported to be

Corpses of men - 574
Corpses of women - 1,225
Corpses of children under 15 - 675
Corpses of babies - 24

Arithmetic was not the strong suit of those compiling doc 17 as their tally adds to 2,498, not 2,448, which means that they summed to less than the total - or made errors in the breakdown of corpses by sex and age. Earlier reports gave slightly varying totals (e.g., doc 16 has from grave 1 - 530 men, 1,223 women, and 625 children, thus "2,403 corpses were extracted" the total being off by 1, not 50 in this case; from grave 2 - "38 male corpses"; and from grave 3 - 8 corpses for a total of 2,424. And so on.)

Further, also from The Tragedy in Lithuania: 1941-1944 New Documents on Lithuanian Collaborators During the Second World War 2008 we can read docs 46 & 52 on the inspection of mass graves at "Ilokiai."

In doc 52 (doc 52 ACT ON CRIMES AND ATROCITIES OF FASCIST AGGRESSORS AND THEIR ACCOMPLICES IN THE ILOKIAI BOROUGH, THE MEŽEIKIAI UYEZD, THE LITHUANIAN SSR October 18-19 1944) in particular we are told that, following interrogations, the investigative commission examined three mass graves where witnesses had told that the town of Ilokiai’s Jews had been buried after being shot. In the three graves were reported to be*

- grave 1: “300 disorderly dumped corpses of men, women, and children in 4 layers” and without shoes and mostly undressed
- grave 2: “about 100 corpses”; “disorderly dumped corpses of men, women and children”
- grave 3: “3 corpses of men”

Again we confront a maths problem as the report says “So, in total, up to 475 corpses were revealed in the graves.” 47 of the corpses were examined; “all of the corpses have gunshot wounds in the top areas of the body, many corpses have several wounds, that evidences that the execution was carried out from small and automatic weapon.”
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Right from the Soviet archives, ay ..... :) Published in 2008 ! Sure, that's legit ! Better late than never :D
 
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Saggy said:
Right from the Soviet archives, right ..... :) Published in 2008 ! Sure, that's legit !
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How would you know differently?

Still unable to decide whether to push the button or not - yes it is still waiting for you to decide. Step up and join your SS brothers or be a wimp?
 
Saggy said:
:D


Right from the Soviet archives, ay ..... :) Published in 2008 ! Sure, that's legit ! Better late than never :D
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The copyright is certainly not a problem - it's to be expected in fact; these documents date from the war period and were in closed archives - not released until recently due to Soviet decisions to keep the archives closed. The archives containing these documents were opened long after the fall of the USSR.

Explain to us what you think is wrong with these reports - other than that they have evidence you don't like - and tell us too about your own investigative work into events in Žagare and "Ilokiai." I'm especially interested in what you have to say about EMs and other German reports which mention "the wholesale execution of the Zagare Jews," as one report put it, as well as the "mutiny [of Jews which] took place" there, according to a different German report.

If these reports are in error, you will need to explain these German reports which confirm the main findings.

Also, if you insist that the reports are not legitimate, tell us how and when they were created.
 
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LemmyCaution said:
- and tell us too about your own investigative work into events in Žagare and "Ilokiai."
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I googled to find: "all Jews where cruely killed by the Lithuanian population at the marketplace and buried in Naryshkin Park". Nobody told them about the excavation.

Perhaps Muelenkamp should let them know :).
 
Saggy said:
I googled to find: "all Jews where cruely killed by the Lithuanian population at the marketplace and buried in Naryshkin Park". Nobody told them about the excavation.

Perhaps Muelenkamp should let them know :).
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No link Saggy?

Why did you leave that out?

Here is the full quote

During World War II and the German occupation, the Germans set up a Jewish ghetto in Žagarė, to hold Jews from Šiauliai Ghetto. In a massacre of the Einsatzgruppe A at the Jom Kippur the 2nd. October 1941 all Jews where cruely killed by the lithuanian population at the marketplace and buried in Naryshkin Park. The blood was flowing to the Svete River and the Fire brigade had to wash it away.
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http://elirab.me/zagare/

But this is a secondary source - what is the primary Saggy?
 
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