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General Holocaust denial discussion Part III

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"there were many Jews here, who were rounded up by the Lithuanian militia"

I have thought for some time that Jews were killed in Lithuania and Latvia by the locals in revenge ... the usual pogrom kind of thing ... for the Jews' role in the Soviet occupation. But, even here, I'm wondering, are their mass graves that have been excavated? If there is a mass killing, in this case lets say 20+, there is a mass grave. A mass killing and no excavated mass grave is suspect.

Mass grave Lithuania

https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/sites/default/files/MMWG_Killing_Sites.pdf

"The “Baltic Mass Graves Project” led to the
identification and signposting of killing sites in Estonia, Lithuania,
and Latvia: in Lithuania, 202 sites were identified and marked in 2003
-2004, 100 in Latvia, and 6 in Estonia

A claim of mass survival with no survivors is suspect. Show me what had happened to the Lithuania Jewish population in 1945. Start by evidencing where they ended up.
 
Mass grave Lithuania

https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/sites/default/files/MMWG_Killing_Sites.pdf

"The “Baltic Mass Graves Project” led to the
identification and signposting of killing sites in Estonia, Lithuania,
and Latvia: in Lithuania, 202 sites were identified and marked in 2003
-2004, 100 in Latvia, and 6 in Estonia

A claim of mass survival with no survivors is suspect. Show me what had happened to the Lithuania Jewish population in 1945. Start by evidencing where they ended up.

Well, I chased a link ... and came up with one excavated mass grave at Serniki, but no details, I googled and got only a little more info ... the excavations were apparently connection with an Austrailian trial ..

"A mass grave in Serniki was then excavated,"

Ref 1
... examinations of selected skulls of 553 individuals, alleged to be Jewish men, women, children, ... part of an investigation by the Austrailian govt ...


Ref 2
"To prosecutors, however, Polyukhovich was a mass murderer. They charged him with involvement in the massacre of about 850 people from the Jewish ghetto of Serniki in Nazi-occupied Ukraine in 1942. If convicted, he could have faced life in prison.

For nine weeks, the jurors heard grisly testimony. One witness said he saw Polyukhovich shoot three people with one bullet, then crush a survivor's skull with his rifle butt. Video footage of an exhumed mass grave in a pine forest outside Serniki showed hundreds of skeletons, face down, in layers. Most had been shot in the head.

But Australia's first and probably last Nazi war crimes trial ended in acquittal last week. A South Australian Supreme Court jury in Adelaide took less than an hour to find Polyukhovich not guilty of crimes against humanity."

So, was it a mass grave of Nazi victims, or, of NKVD victims?

The information is sketchy at best.

Also from the link ..

"Jedwabne massacre"

This one has a wiki entry ...

investigated in 2002

"confirmed by the number of victims in the two graves, according to the estimate of the archeological and anthropological team participating in the exhumation"

"After a fresh investigation, concluded in 2003, the Polish Institute of National Remembrance stated that the pogrom was committed by Polish inhabitants of the town,[6] with the complicity of the German Ordnungspolizei. "
 
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Difficult to answer properly. According to German historian Wolfram Wette 22000 German soldier were court martialed and sentenced to death for desertion (with 15000 executed). It is however difficult to say what their reasons for deserting were.

One can however notice the case of Feldwebel Anton Schmid who was executed because he tried to save the life of 250 Jews.

In one of his letters to his wife je wrote:



But I imagine Saggy will tell us that this is not a valid testimony proving that the Germans killed the Jews...

Thanks for the reply. I asked that as I remembered that a number of SS reports stated that the soldiers were having problems in killing civilians and I believe a less 'human on human' approach was sought to avoid this problem.

Is that correct?
 
"there were many Jews here, who were rounded up by the Lithuanian militia"

I have thought for some time that Jews were killed in Lithuania and Latvia by the locals in revenge ... the usual pogrom kind of thing ... for the Jews' role in the Soviet occupation.
Here, for anyone interested in the history, are some comments on the German command in Lithuania as pertains to EK3 and the extermination program:

Shortly after the German invasion of the USSR, in Vilnius, Lithuanian nationalist units began seizing Jews in the city streets and taking them to Ponary, where they were executed. EK9, commanded by Filbert, arrived in the city around 2 July 1941. On 30 June Filbert had informed his men that their duties in the USSR would be in the spirit of National Socialism and would involve killing Jews (at Filbert’s trial, this was explained as a Führer order, as other EG leaders claimed in the NMT Einsatzgruppen trial). In Vilnius Filbert decided to utilize the same killing site which had been used for a few murder actions carried out by Lithuanian squads – at Ponary. EK9 carried out executions of Jews at Ponary beginning 4 July. According to Jäger, about 4,000 Jews were killed in such early German actions in Lithuania prior to the activity of his EK3 there. (Yitzak Arad, Ghetto in Flames, pp 66-68) Jewish sources, including Kruk and Dworzecki, describe the snatching of Jews on the streets during this time, and Kruk recorded information that those snatched were being killed at Ponary by some point in July.*

The murder system was refined quickly, and by 8 July large numbers of Jews were being taken from Vilnius and killed, probably at Ponary at this time, certainly there by later in the month. The EG situation report for 15 July already spoke of a “daily liquidation quota” for EK9. (Yitzhak Arad, Shmuel Krakowski, and Shmuel Spector, eds., The Einsatzgruppen Reports, p 29) Sakowicz’s first journal entry, for 11 July, recorded these killings, too, describing how “I discover that many Jews have been ‘transported’ to the forest. And suddenly they shoot them.” (Kazimierz Sakowicz, Ponary Diary, 1941-1943, p 11) Sakowicz listed about a dozen additional shooting actions, averaging about 300 victims each, during the month of July, all before the arrival of EK3 in the area. Sakowicz recorded his observation that “Only the Shaulists do the shooting and guarding.” (p 12) Shaulists was shorthand for Sauliu Sajunga, a paramilitary rifle unit composed of Lithuanian nationalists. (p 12)

In early July, the Germans changed their administration of the city of Vilnius, ousting local collaborators and installing a military government. Local police and partisan units were subordinated to the German Order Police, whilst a militia, called the Ypatingi Buriai, made up of local riflemen and referred to as the Shaulists by Sakowicz, was formed and attached the 2nd week of July to EK9. (Arad, Ghetto in Flames, pp 70-71; Yitzak Arad, introduction to Ponary Diary, pp 6-8) Two EG operational reports described this placement of the Lithuanian paramilitary under the command of the EK. First, the EG report dated 7 July 1941 noted that “The Lithuanian police branches in Vilnius, subordinated to the Einsatzkommando, were given the task of drawing up the names of Jews in Vilnius. . . . Subsequently, searches and arrests were made and 54 Jews were liquidated on July 4 and 93 were liquidated on July 5” (the combined force also searched out Communists). (Arad, Krakowski, Spector, p 15) In addition, the report for 13 July described this command structure: “In Vilnius by July 8th the local Einsatzkommando liquidated 321 Jews. The Lithuanian Ordnungsdienst which was placed under the Einsatzkommando after the Lithuanian political police had been dissolved was instructed to take part in the liquidation of the Jews. 150 Lithuanian officials were assigned to this task. They arrested the Jews and put them into concentration camps where they were subjected the same day to special treatment.” (Arad, Krakowski, Spector, p 22) (Are we to believe that Colonel Jäger and the other EG officers were mistaken in understanding whether they or the Lithuanians were in control?) This command structure was instituted before Jäger’s EK3 arrived in the area, but the unit described in this report served first under EK9 and then supported EK3 when Jäger arrived in August. The “150” (approximately) men executed the special tasks with regard to Jews and the overall security operation assigned both EKs. Sakowicz referred to the men in this unit as “Shaulists,” as we’ve seen above. A number of witnesses in the city of Vilnius witnessed a subunit of this group rounding up Jews there; Sakowicz witnessed other subunits doing the shooting and standing guard duty at the killing site at Ponary.

Further changes came by summer’s end with Lithuania being transferred from military control to civilian control and administered under Rosenberg’s Eastern administration as part of the Ostland. This new structure allowed Himmler’s forces to remain active but not under the authority of the civilian government. (Arad, Ghetto in Flames, pp 82-84) EK9 departed Lithuania at the end of July. At the same time Gebietskommissar Hingst was installed to run the city government in Vilnius, replacing military governor Zehnpfenning.*

It was in early August that EK3 came to the area, with about 30 Security Police and SD men stationed in Vilnius by 9 August. (Ghetto in Flames, p 89) The Lithuanian paramilitary units now answered to the Security Police and SD in Vilnius, reporting to the Gestapo in Vilnius; the Gestapo man in charge during the time covered by Jager’s report was Schweinberger. Thus, Lithuanian militiaman First Lieutenant Lukoschos reported to and took direction from Schweinberger; second in command of the Shaulists was Second Lieutenant Norvaisas. The local police, commanded by Iskauskas, reported into the German police (and helped in the roundups and ghetto-formation process that were part of the events of early September 1941) (Ghetto in Flames, pp 90-91) Schweinberger’s role in roundups of Jews and organizing the division of tasks between Germans and Lithuanians was observed by Jews in Vilnius. (Herman Kruk, The Last Days of the Jerusalem of Lithuania, pp 122-123; Mark Dworzecki, from Yiddish book Yerushalayim D’Lita in Kamf un Umkum: “The majority were Lithuanian fascists. We called them ‘Ypatingas’ [chosen]. Their office was at 12 Vilna Street. They were admitted into service by Gestapo Officer Schweinenberg.”)

Sakowicz’s observations included his seeing how the division of labor played out, with Germans dealing with plans and disposal of property of the victims and like while the Lithuanian units did the grunt work. In this vein, Sakowicz explained how Lithuanians robbed the Jews’ belongings: “For the Germans 300 Jews are 300 enemies of humanity; for the Lithuanians they are 300 pairs of shoes, trousers, and the like.” In August, after Jager's EK3 had taken over, Sakowicz described how one victim resisted and “struck a German with a bottle on the temple,” as the German took the man’s belongings: “Since August 22 the Germans have been taking the valuables from the man condemned to death.” (p 19) The next day Sakowicz noted that “a few Germans” brought “12 Jewish women, young ones I believe” to the Ponary forest for execution. Citing a local priest, he explained that during executions of Jewish women that day, one group “was liquidated not by the Shaulists but by the Germans.” (p 21) About the early September action, discussed above, Sakowicz wrote that the shooting squad and perimeter guards were Lithuanians (p 28) who carried out the action at the behest of the Germans, specifically mentioning the threat made by Hingst (p 29), the German-installed city administrator who had issued a warning to “the entire Jewish community” of Vilnius. (Yitzhak Arad, The Holocaust in the USSR, p 145)

Sakowicz recorded during later months how "Gestapo" men or other "Germans" would accompany the trucks carrying the shooters as they drove from Vilnius to Ponary (p 54, 61, 66-67) and how Germans were at the shooting site while “Lithuanians" did the shooting (pp 57, 61-62). He also described how Germans intervened when they caught Lithuanians looting the goods of the murdered Jews, which in principle belonged to the Reich. (pp 62, 64) One day in early 1943 Sakowicz observed how at Ponary “the Germans were shooting with the submachine guns and the Lithuanians with rifles.” (p 66)

The notion that the Germans didn't oversee murder operations in Lithuania during 1941 is simply risible - that's partly the point of Jäger's report, after all, to explain his successful program management.

On mass graves in Lithuania, for example, I'll just add 2 references to what has been posted previously in this thread:

Document no. 125 in Documents Accuse, pp 259-260, is a report of 30 July 1942 by the Public Health Board of the District of Vilnius (No. 1150) made to the Gebietskommissar of Vilnius, concerning "Interment of corpses and carcasses." It reads in part that
Investigations have shown the following common graves: . . .

5) In the parish of Rudamina: in the Paneriai Forest near the station of Paneriai the common graves are situated on somewhat higher sandy grounds. The common graves are round in form and measure some 30 metres round. If any depression happens to occur it is filled out with earth. The graves are fenced in and are under constant surveillance. They are under the control of the German security police. . . .

(signature illegible)
District Physician of the District of Vilnius
This was an area where witnesses reported frequent mass executions of Jews.

Doc 239, medical officer of Trakai district

(Sakowicz's diary too describes his own examination of the mass graves at Ponary.)
 
Thanks for the reply. I asked that as I remembered that a number of SS reports stated that the soldiers were having problems in killing civilians and I believe a less 'human on human' approach was sought to avoid this problem.

Is that correct?
Soldiers and police officers were often excused from shooting duty if they were not "up to it" or had issues with it, without punishment. I think EtienneSC and I went round on this some months ago in this thread.
 
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Here, for anyone interested in the history, are some comments on the German command in Lithuania as pertains to EK3 and the extermination program:

Shortly after the German invasion of the USSR, in Vilnius, Lithuanian nationalist units began seizing Jews in the city streets and taking them to Ponary, where they were executed. EK9, commanded by Filbert, arrived in the city around 2 July 1941. On 30 June Filbert had informed his men that their duties in the USSR would be in the spirit of National Socialism and would involve killing Jews (at Filbert’s trial, this was explained as a Führer order, as other EG leaders claimed in the NMT Einsatzgruppen trial). In Vilnius Filbert decided to utilize the same killing site which had been used for a few murder actions carried out by Lithuanian squads – at Ponary. EK9 carried out executions of Jews at Ponary beginning 4 July. According to Jäger, about 4,000 Jews were killed in such early German actions in Lithuania prior to the activity of his EK3 there. (Yitzak Arad, Ghetto in Flames, pp 66-68) Jewish sources, including Kruk and Dworzecki, describe the snatching of Jews on the streets during this time, and Kruk recorded information that those snatched were being killed at Ponary by some point in July.*

The murder system was refined quickly, and by 8 July large numbers of Jews were being taken from Vilnius and killed, probably at Ponary at this time, certainly there by later in the month. The EG situation report for 15 July already spoke of a “daily liquidation quota” for EK9. (Yitzhak Arad, Shmuel Krakowski, and Shmuel Spector, eds., The Einsatzgruppen Reports, p 29) Sakowicz’s first journal entry, for 11 July, recorded these killings, too, describing how “I discover that many Jews have been ‘transported’ to the forest. And suddenly they shoot them.” (Kazimierz Sakowicz, Ponary Diary, 1941-1943, p 11) Sakowicz listed about a dozen additional shooting actions, averaging about 300 victims each, during the month of July, all before the arrival of EK3 in the area. Sakowicz recorded his observation that “Only the Shaulists do the shooting and guarding.” (p 12) Shaulists was shorthand for Sauliu Sajunga, a paramilitary rifle unit composed of Lithuanian nationalists. (p 12)

In early July, the Germans changed their administration of the city of Vilnius, ousting local collaborators and installing a military government. Local police and partisan units were subordinated to the German Order Police, whilst a militia, called the Ypatingi Buriai, made up of local riflemen and referred to as the Shaulists by Sakowicz, was formed and attached the 2nd week of July to EK9. (Arad, Ghetto in Flames, pp 70-71; Yitzak Arad, introduction to Ponary Diary, pp 6-8) Two EG operational reports described this placement of the Lithuanian paramilitary under the command of the EK. First, the EG report dated 7 July 1941 noted that “The Lithuanian police branches in Vilnius, subordinated to the Einsatzkommando, were given the task of drawing up the names of Jews in Vilnius. . . . Subsequently, searches and arrests were made and 54 Jews were liquidated on July 4 and 93 were liquidated on July 5” (the combined force also searched out Communists). (Arad, Krakowski, Spector, p 15) In addition, the report for 13 July described this command structure: “In Vilnius by July 8th the local Einsatzkommando liquidated 321 Jews. The Lithuanian Ordnungsdienst which was placed under the Einsatzkommando after the Lithuanian political police had been dissolved was instructed to take part in the liquidation of the Jews. 150 Lithuanian officials were assigned to this task. They arrested the Jews and put them into concentration camps where they were subjected the same day to special treatment.” (Arad, Krakowski, Spector, p 22) (Are we to believe that Colonel Jäger and the other EG officers were mistaken in understanding whether they or the Lithuanians were in control?) This command structure was instituted before Jäger’s EK3 arrived in the area, but the unit described in this report served first under EK9 and then supported EK3 when Jäger arrived in August. The “150” (approximately) men executed the special tasks with regard to Jews and the overall security operation assigned both EKs. Sakowicz referred to the men in this unit as “Shaulists,” as we’ve seen above. A number of witnesses in the city of Vilnius witnessed a subunit of this group rounding up Jews there; Sakowicz witnessed other subunits doing the shooting and standing guard duty at the killing site at Ponary.

Further changes came by summer’s end with Lithuania being transferred from military control to civilian control and administered under Rosenberg’s Eastern administration as part of the Ostland. This new structure allowed Himmler’s forces to remain active but not under the authority of the civilian government. (Arad, Ghetto in Flames, pp 82-84) EK9 departed Lithuania at the end of July. At the same time Gebietskommissar Hingst was installed to run the city government in Vilnius, replacing military governor Zehnpfenning.*

It was in early August that EK3 came to the area, with about 30 Security Police and SD men stationed in Vilnius by 9 August. (Ghetto in Flames, p 89) The Lithuanian paramilitary units now answered to the Security Police and SD in Vilnius, reporting to the Gestapo in Vilnius; the Gestapo man in charge during the time covered by Jager’s report was Schweinberger. Thus, Lithuanian militiaman First Lieutenant Lukoschos reported to and took direction from Schweinberger; second in command of the Shaulists was Second Lieutenant Norvaisas. The local police, commanded by Iskauskas, reported into the German police (and helped in the roundups and ghetto-formation process that were part of the events of early September 1941) (Ghetto in Flames, pp 90-91) Schweinberger’s role in roundups of Jews and organizing the division of tasks between Germans and Lithuanians was observed by Jews in Vilnius. (Herman Kruk, The Last Days of the Jerusalem of Lithuania, pp 122-123; Mark Dworzecki, from Yiddish book Yerushalayim D’Lita in Kamf un Umkum: “The majority were Lithuanian fascists. We called them ‘Ypatingas’ [chosen]. Their office was at 12 Vilna Street. They were admitted into service by Gestapo Officer Schweinenberg.”)

Sakowicz’s observations included his seeing how the division of labor played out, with Germans dealing with plans and disposal of property of the victims and like while the Lithuanian units did the grunt work. In this vein, Sakowicz explained how Lithuanians robbed the Jews’ belongings: “For the Germans 300 Jews are 300 enemies of humanity; for the Lithuanians they are 300 pairs of shoes, trousers, and the like.” In August, after Jager's EK3 had taken over, Sakowicz described how one victim resisted and “struck a German with a bottle on the temple,” as the German took the man’s belongings: “Since August 22 the Germans have been taking the valuables from the man condemned to death.” (p 19) The next day Sakowicz noted that “a few Germans” brought “12 Jewish women, young ones I believe” to the Ponary forest for execution. Citing a local priest, he explained that during executions of Jewish women that day, one group “was liquidated not by the Shaulists but by the Germans.” (p 21) About the early September action, discussed above, Sakowicz wrote that the shooting squad and perimeter guards were Lithuanians (p 28) who carried out the action at the behest of the Germans, specifically mentioning the threat made by Hingst (p 29), the German-installed city administrator who had issued a warning to “the entire Jewish community” of Vilnius. (Yitzhak Arad, The Holocaust in the USSR, p 145)

Sakowicz recorded during later months how "Gestapo" men or other "Germans" would accompany the trucks carrying the shooters as they drove from Vilnius to Ponary (p 54, 61, 66-67) and how Germans were at the shooting site while “Lithuanians" did the shooting (pp 57, 61-62). He also described how Germans intervened when they caught Lithuanians looting the goods of the murdered Jews, which in principle belonged to the Reich. (pp 62, 64) One day in early 1943 Sakowicz observed how at Ponary “the Germans were shooting with the submachine guns and the Lithuanians with rifles.” (p 66)

The notion that the Germans didn't oversee murder operations in Lithuania during 1941 is simply risible - that's partly the point of Jäger's report, after all, to explain his successful program management.

On mass graves in Lithuania, for example, I'll just add 2 references to what has been posted previously in this thread:

Document no. 125 in Documents Accuse, pp 259-260, is a report of 30 July 1942 by the Public Health Board of the District of Vilnius (No. 1150) made to the Gebietskommissar of Vilnius, concerning "Interment of corpses and carcasses." It reads in part that
This was an area where witnesses reported frequent mass executions of Jews.

Doc 239, medical officer of Trakai district

(Sakowicz's diary too describes his own examination of the mass graves at Ponary.)

OK, 100,00 killed at Ponary. And not a shred of physical evidence? Sounds like the holohoax.

Ponary massacre

Excavations? I guess they forgot.
 
OK, 100,00 killed at Ponary. And not a shred of physical evidence? Sounds like the holohoax.

Ponary massacre

Excavations? I guess they forgot.
Wrong, the Wikipedia website you linked to mentions the excavated pits - and SK-1005 destroyed many of the corpses buried there (popular account here), still bodies were exhumed after the war (thanks for Nessie for posting a link I don't have handy). And an archaeological project is underway now.
 
author: Roberto Muehlenkamp

No, you have to do better than that.
No, you have to do better, no ad hominems, tell us substantively what's wrong with what Nessie posted.

Simply casting aspersions on a person (one who is not here to defend himself, I note) is not an argument.

No ad hominems, you can do it if you try!
 
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author: Roberto Muehlenkamp

No, you have to do better than that.

Why? You are unable to poise any intellectual response other than hand waving?

Not much of a denier are you now? lol

Why ask for evidence you are unable to comprehend?

I remind you that you have been so confused and ineffectual recently that you cannot even decided to, or not to, push a button.

You have to do better than that.
 
And not a shred of physical evidence?

You are particularly interested in physical evidence then Saggy?

So where is the physical evidence for the survival of the Jews that you claim were shipped east?

I mean you have physical proof don't you? Something other than just you saying so?

There is also a button you have to decide about. Hitler would cry at your indecision.
 
Why? What's insufficient about this?

Your entire line of "argument" in this thread has been to give excuses at to why you don't have a look at the evidence. Man up.

A bit too much of a request for Saggy I believe, small steps, he needs small steps may I recommend he try to 'baby up' first, then 'boy up', etc. Just a suggestion. Once he can get to 'young adult' try 'man up' again.

lol

I mean he cannot even decide whether to push a button or not?

I'm starting to think his earlier displays of hatred and fear of Jews was just pretend.
 
author: Roberto Muehlenkamp

No, you have to do better than that.

He has collated evidence and presented it. The person who has to do much better is you.

You have ignored my request to evidence the mass transit and survival of c34,000 Dutch Jews sent to Sobibor. I now have a request in for you to evidence and prove the mass transit and survival of the Jewish population of Lithuania (c160,000) and those sent to Ponary (c70,000).

Please start by collating the evidence you use to substantiate your belief those people lived on.
 
He has collated evidence and presented it. The person who has to do much better is you.

You have ignored my request to evidence the mass transit and survival of c34,000 Dutch Jews sent to Sobibor. I now have a request in for you to evidence and prove the mass transit and survival of the Jewish population of Lithuania (c160,000) and those sent to Ponary (c70,000).

Please start by collating the evidence you use to substantiate your belief those people lived on.

Yesterday, when we had installed our son in his student room, we went to the centre of the city for a few drinks. two streets away we passed three little brass bricks in the pavement in front of an ordinary door. A family of three jews had lived in that house and were deported and killed in Sobibor.

Edit: Just meant to say, things like this brings it all a little closer to home.
 
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It is sad that Saggy and the rest of the denialists refuse point blank to engage in any evidencing so as to show how people, such as the three sent to Sobibor, actually survived.

The only reason why it is worth keeping going with him and his like is to show how corrupt denialism is.
 
Thanks for the reply. I asked that as I remembered that a number of SS reports stated that the soldiers were having problems in killing civilians and I believe a less 'human on human' approach was sought to avoid this problem.

Is that correct?

There were two things happening. Those soldiers who actively participated in the shootings became traumatised by the sheer horror which inspired the quest for easier methods. Even Himmler admitted that.

However, there was another small group who refused to participate from the very outset in any way.
 
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