Ed Dueling protests spark state of emergency in Virginia.

[PhantomWolf]

First off, you're not a mindreader either. Obviously there are some white nationalists who are also white supremacists. Just like there are some Zionists who think that gentiles should and will be slaves to the Jews. You appear to think that Nationalism is inherently racist. That just means that you need to learn what Nationalism is really about. Or maybe you think that everybody who believes that Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish state is bare naked scum that needs to be beaten down whenever they try to exercise their rights to free speech. I'll defend you're right to spew your vile philosophy even if I don't agree with it but I will not defend you're right to physically harm speakers you don't agree with.

You know, last time I checked there were plenty of non-Jews loving in Israel, there were even Arabs and *gasp* muslims living there.

ETA: In fact it's actually close to the US in demographics in that Israel is 75% Jewish and 25% non-Jewish, while the US is 72% white and 28% non-white.

 

[Tommy Jeppesen]

You know, last time I checked there were plenty of non-Jews loving in Israel, there were even Arabs and *gasp* muslims living there.

And Christians.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Seems like almost all of my liberal/progressive friends are now enthusiastically discussing censorship and other clamp downs on free speech.

I think it's time to get my passport in order.

Them: "Hate speech is not free speech and deserves no protection"

Me: "Who decides which speech is hate speech?"

Them: "Oh, so you're a Nazi sympathizer, now?"

First. There have always been limits to Free Speech even in the US.

You can't incite violence and call it free speech.
You can't issue an order to commit a crime and call it free speech.
You can't incite a panic and call it free speech.
You can't defame someone and call it free speech.
You can't disclose classified information and call it free speech.

So there are already limits on what you can say and when you can say it.

The question just remains of where those limits should be.

Secondly...

I think it's time to get my passport in order.

Bahahahahaha. Where are you planning to go? The US has the most liberal speech laws on the planet. In a lot of Europe the White Nationalists who marched in Virginia would be locked up. The UK, Australia, and Canada all have hate speech laws. Even herein New Zealand a lot of the things they were saying could end up with you in legal trouble. South America likewise, in fact in Brazil hate speech can get you locked up without bail. The likes of Asia and the Middle East have even stricter speech laws. Unless you plan to go to one of the African nations who is in such political turmoil that their Governments have little Control then pretty much the rest of the world has laws against Hate Speech. So then where exactly do you plan to go? Russia? Oh wait, Hate Speech there will get you a fine of 300,000 to 500,000 rubles or the salary or other income for a period of 2 to 3 years, or community service for a period of 1 year to four years, with disqualification to hold certain positions or engage in certain activities up to 3 years, or imprisonment for a term of 2 to 5 years. So perhaps not there either.

 

[caveman1917]

Interesting question.

Is it still a Godwin if they really are Nazis?

Yes, at least on this forum. Feel free to go through some previous threads on these specific groups of people, where you'll find that the consensus is largely that they're just "free speech protesters" and calling them fascists is "Godwin's law".

Bet you 10$ that the minute this specific event is sufficiently "ancient history" it'll be back to "they're free speech protesters and calling them fascists is Godwin's law".

 

[Delphic Oracle]

First. There have always been limits to Free Speech even in the US.

You can't incite violence and call it free speech.
You can't issue an order to commit a crime and call it free speech.
You can't incite a panic and call it free speech.
You can't defame someone and call it free speech.
You can't disclose classified information and call it free speech.

So there are already limits on what you can say and when you can say it.

The question just remains of where those limits should be.

Secondly...



Bahahahahaha. Where are you planning to go? The US has the most liberal speech laws on the planet. In a lot of Europe the White Nationalists who marched in Virginia would be locked up. The UK, Australia, and Canada all have hate speech laws. Even herein New Zealand a lot of the things they were saying could end up with you in legal trouble. South America likewise, in fact in Brazil hate speech can get you locked up without bail. The likes of Asia and the Middle East have even stricter speech laws. Unless you plan to go to one of the African nations who is in such political turmoil that their Governments have little Control then pretty much the rest of the world has laws against Hate Speech. So then where exactly do you plan to go? Russia? Oh wait, Hate Speech there will get you a fine of 300,000 to 500,000 rubles or the salary or other income for a period of 2 to 3 years, or community service for a period of 1 year to four years, with disqualification to hold certain positions or engage in certain activities up to 3 years, or imprisonment for a term of 2 to 5 years. So perhaps not there either.

I don't have one ounce of faith in the ability of the American people to get this one right. My biggest concern is actually that it will rapidly be co-opted and turned into a bludgeon by the very people it would be enacted against.

Sent from my SM-J327P using Tapatalk

 

[Beerina]

Here in lies the problem with you claiming to be the only skeptical one... why are you making the assumption that a chopper crash 7 miles from the protests was the result of either side "bringing it down" rather than the far more likely situation that it was caused by mechanical failure?

TBH, some news organizations were claiming "3 deaths" related to the rally. Of course, there's what a scientist or skeptic or lawyer might think "related to" means, and the inference the average person might draw from it.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

Idiots on the internet playing sleuth? I wish any site that has them would ban them.

I think "internet sleuths" can be used to good effect by law enforcement to assist in solving crimes and identifying perpetrators. In a "hive mind" sort of way*.

I don't see it as very different from a "hot line"**. Police do recognize that the majority of tips coming from the public will be dead ends, but among those may be the tip that leads to arrest and conviction.

To condemn "internet sleuths" is to "shoot the messenger". Blame not those quickly finding and posting information about a crime - blame those who take that information and run with it before it's been properly scrutinized.


*I've seen promos for a TV show based on this premise.

*Recognizing that police tips are not generally made public until verified to some extent. But even they will publicize "person of interest" information, long before probable cause to affect an arrest has been established.

 

[Foolmewunz]

I think "internet sleuths" can be used to good effect by law enforcement to assist in solving crimes and identifying perpetrators. In a "hive mind" sort of way*.

I don't see it as very different from a "hot line"**. Police do recognize that the majority of tips coming from the public will be dead ends, but among those may be the tip that leads to arrest and conviction.

To condemn "internet sleuths" is to "shoot the messenger". Blame not those quickly finding and posting information about a crime - blame those who take that information and run with it before it's been properly scrutinized.


*I've seen promos for a TV show based on this premise.

*Recognizing that police tips are not generally made public until verified to some extent. But even they will publicize "person of interest" information, long before probable cause to affect an arrest has been established.

In the context of the discussion, "internet sleuths" refers to the people who go around racing with each other to be the first to get the information on the web. They are not doing investigations and handing the information out to LEO. They are anxious to be the "first to publish", so to speak. We were not discussing Police Hotlines or CIs but eager beavers who rush to get their suspicions out into the public as quickly as possible.

 

[casebro]

Here in lies the problem with you claiming to be the only skeptical one... why are you making the assumption that a chopper crash 7 miles from the protests was the result of either side "bringing it down" rather than the far more likely situation that it was caused by mechanical failure?

I mntioned that possibility too,go find the post that started this debacle.

eta: Post 374, first sentence.

 

[Delvo]

Way back at the beginning, before the car thing happened, the link in the first post here apparently would have described what the protest was about. Now it just diverts to an article about the car thing. Why did these people chose this place & time to gather? What were they responding to?

 

[ponderingturtle]

Way back at the beginning, before the car thing happened, the link in the first post here apparently would have described what the protest was about. Now it just diverts to an article about the car thing. Why did these people chose this place & time to gather? What were they responding to?

They were responding to the proposal to take down a statue of Robert E Lee. The KKK had a similar rally there a few weeks ago. Now is was a more broad collection of alt right white supremacists.

 

[caveman1917]

People are identifying the Charlottesville Nazis and getting them fired

Some far-right protesters are beginning to pay the price for attending the ‘Unite the Right’ rally in Charlottesville, Virginia.

Twitter user @YesYoureRacist, who describes their work as “scouring the underbelly of Twitter to expose people who say they’re not racist, and then go on to prove otherwise,” is posting the identities of those who attended far-right rallies on Friday and Saturday:

 

[BobTheCoward]

In the context of the discussion, "internet sleuths" refers to the people who go around racing with each other to be the first to get the information on the web. They are not doing investigations and handing the information out to LEO. They are anxious to be the "first to publish", so to speak. We were not discussing Police Hotlines or CIs but eager beavers who rush to get their suspicions out into the public as quickly as possible.

They are the worst of both worlds. It isn't a matter of giving tips they come across. They are actively researching (not what those lines were set up for). And they treat every development like it is Law and Order.

 

[BobTheCoward]

People are identifying the Charlottesville Nazis and getting them fired

I wonder what his job was.

 

[varwoche]

First off, you're not a mindreader either. Obviously there are some white nationalists who are also white supremacists. Just like there are some Zionists who think that gentiles should and will be slaves to the Jews. You appear to think that Nationalism is inherently racist. That just means that you need to learn what Nationalism is really about. Or maybe you think that everybody who believes that Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish state is bare naked scum that needs to be beaten down whenever they try to exercise their rights to free speech. I'll defend you're right to spew your vile philosophy even if I don't agree with it but I will not defend you're right to physically harm speakers you don't agree with.

WTF are you going on about? I haven't advocated that speakers be physically harmed in any way, shape, or form. Focus on what's actually been written please.

 

[caveman1917]

Looks like the ACLU finally got what they wanted, with their incessant defense of so-called Nazis' "rights" to recruit and organize for (mass) killings.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

I think "internet sleuths" can be used to good effect by law enforcement to assist in solving crimes and identifying perpetrators. In a "hive mind" sort of way*.

I don't see it as very different from a "hot line"**. Police do recognize that the majority of tips coming from the public will be dead ends, but among those may be the tip that leads to arrest and conviction.

To condemn "internet sleuths" is to "shoot the messenger". Blame not those quickly finding and posting information about a crime - blame those who take that information and run with it before it's been properly scrutinized.


*I've seen promos for a TV show based on this premise.

*Recognizing that police tips are not generally made public until verified to some extent. But even they will publicize "person of interest" information, long before probable cause to affect an arrest has been established.

Then you have to accept the harm they do to the innocent, a lot of them don't believe in innocent until proven Guilty.
You would also have more people like Alex Jones.

 

[alfaniner]

In the context of the discussion, "internet sleuths" refers to the people who go around racing with each other to be the first to get the information on the web. They are not doing investigations and handing the information out to LEO. They are anxious to be the "first to publish", so to speak. We were not discussing Police Hotlines or CIs but eager beavers who rush to get their suspicions out into the public as quickly as possible.

You just described every single news media outlet, ever.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

Then you have to accept the harm they do to the innocent, a lot of them don't believe in innocent until proven Guilty.
You would also have more people like Alex Jones.

Accepted as fact.

But also a fact that it's not likely to change without some Draconian form of censorship.

Might as well complain about the weather.

 

[Thermal]

Government denunciation of counter revolutionaries and disruptive elements is something Trump can learn from Kim Jong Un

Are you saying gov't can't denounce anyone, lest it be accused of totalitarianism or w/e?