General Holocaust denial discussion Part III

[Saggy]

You know Jacob too! Small world, good guy, but is he paying you on time?

I'm sending him a note, telling him he should ask for his money back

 

[Hans]

I'm sending him a note, telling him he should ask for his money back

Saggy I believe you'll get a bonus. You have managed to self-debunked yourself with truly 'amazing' display of extraordinarily inept posting.

 

[Pacal]

Wait! I was under the impression that Hitler blamed a whole raft of things on the Jews; chiefly, the loss of WW1 and the subsequent economic woes of the Weimar Republic as well as his own personal failures.

I had also read that anti-Semitism was rife in Vienna when Hitler was living there, where at that time he apparently had visions of becoming a great artist, but he turned out to be a talentless hack and pretty much sucked at anything involving paint and canvas. Supposedly, he blamed the Jews for this failure as well.

The argument developed by certain writers about Hitler to deny that he was an anti-Semite prior to the end of World War I, or not much of one until after the war relies on the notion that Hitler was friends with a number of Jews hence he could not have been much of a anti-Semite.

This has always struck me has hopelessly naïve and it ignores the well known phenomena of "some of my best friends are..."

 

[Nick Terry]

The argument developed by certain writers about Hitler to deny that he was an anti-Semite prior to the end of World War I, or not much of one until after the war relies on the notion that Hitler was friends with a number of Jews hence he could not have been much of a anti-Semite.

This has always struck me has hopelessly naïve and it ignores the well known phenomena of "some of my best friends are..."

But Hitler's type of antisemitism was historically specific: it couldn't have been expressed in the same way until after the Bolshevik Revolution.

The other problem is we only have Hitler's own word on his antisemitism until after WWI. Other sources on his life up to the end of WWI don't confirm his self-portrayal.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Volcker Ullrich's recent biography of Hitler explores his contacts and friendships in Vienna, which included Jews, prior to WWI and IMO does a nice job (brief but nice) depicting the atmosphere there, in which Ullrich suggests that Hitler absorbed a lot of the activist/political anti-Semitism and crankery prevalent in the city (Schönerer, Lueger, et al). Arguing that Hitler's self-legend of his "epiphany" in Vienna doesn't hold up, Ullrich notes (citing Hanisch - there's not a lot to go on) that already in Vienna Hitler was describing Jews as "a race unto themselves" and remarking that Jews "smelled different." Ullrich's point is that Hitler's "paranoid Jew-hatred" didn't come about at once, in a conversion experience, but evolved - conditioned by ideas current in the city before the Great War; Hitler was neither the final product of (his own) legend nor free of anti-Semitism during his time in Vienna.

 

[Saggy]

Volcker Ullrich's recent biography of Hitler explores his contacts and friendships in Vienna, which included Jews, prior to WWI and IMO does a nice job (brief but nice) depicting the atmosphere there, in which Ullrich suggests that Hitler absorbed a lot of the activist/political anti-Semitism and crankery prevalent in the city (Schönerer, Lueger, et al). Arguing that Hitler's self-legend of his "epiphany" in Vienna doesn't hold up, Ullrich notes (citing Hanisch - there's not a lot to go on) that already in Vienna Hitler was describing Jews as "a race unto themselves" and remarking that Jews "smelled different." Ullrich's point is that Hitler's "paranoid Jew-hatred" didn't come about at once, in a conversion experience, but evolved - conditioned by ideas current in the city before the Great War; Hitler was neither the final product of (his own) legend nor free of anti-Semitism during his time in Vienna.

What you are missing is the pure genius of these remarks ...

""The more I argued with them, the better I came to know their dialectic. First they counted on the stupidity of their adversary, and then, when there was no other way out, they themselves simply played stupid. If all this didn't help, they pretended not to understand, or, if challenged, they changed the subject in a hurry, quoted platitudes which, if you accepted them, they immediately related to entirely different matters, and then, if again attacked, gave ground and pretended not to know exactly what you were talking about. Whenever you tried to attack one of these apostles, your hand closed on a jelly-like slime which divided up and poured through your fingers, but in the next moment collected again. But if you really struck one of these fellows so telling a blow that, observed by the audience, he couldn't help but agree, and if you believed that this had taken you at least one step forward, your amazement was great the next day. The Jew had not the slightest recollection of the day before, he rattled off his same old nonsense as though nothing at all had happened, and, if indignantly challenged, affected amazement; he couldn't remember a thing, except that he had proved the correctness of his assertions the previous day.

Sometimes I stood there thunderstruck.

I didn't know what to be more amazed at: the agility of their tongues or their virtuosity at lying.

Gradually I began to hate them."


And you're also missing that 'antisemitism' is the ultimate reaction of every national group that has come into contact with the Jews, to get an idea of why see

antisemitism101.com

Just as an example, in Israel it is the norm for Jews to spit, literally, on Christians, as you can see from this article in Haaretz ...

Christians in Jerusalem Want Jews to Stop Spitting on Them

And moreover, it's religiously mandated !

 

[LemmyCaution]

What you are missing is the pure genius of these remarks ...

""The more I argued with them, the better I came to know their dialectic. First they counted on the stupidity of their adversary, and then, when there was no other way out, they themselves simply played stupid. If all this didn't help, they pretended not to understand, or, if challenged, they changed the subject in a hurry, quoted platitudes which, if you accepted them, they immediately related to entirely different matters, and then, if again attacked, gave ground and pretended not to know exactly what you were talking about. Whenever you tried to attack one of these apostles, your hand closed on a jelly-like slime which divided up and poured through your fingers, but in the next moment collected again. But if you really struck one of these fellows so telling a blow that, observed by the audience, he couldn't help but agree, and if you believed that this had taken you at least one step forward, your amazement was great the next day. The Jew had not the slightest recollection of the day before, he rattled off his same old nonsense as though nothing at all had happened, and, if indignantly challenged, affected amazement; he couldn't remember a thing, except that he had proved the correctness of his assertions the previous day.

Sometimes I stood there thunderstruck.

I didn't know what to be more amazed at: the agility of their tongues or their virtuosity at lying.

Gradually I began to hate them."


And you're also missing that 'antisemitism' is the ultimate reaction of every national group that has come into contact with the Jews, to get an idea of why see

antisemitism101.com

Just as an example, in Israel it is the norm for Jews to spit, literally, on Christians, as you can see from this article in Haaretz ...

Christians in Jerusalem Want Jews to Stop Spitting on Them

And moreover, it's religiously mandated !

Saggy, please learn how to construct an argument and carry on a discussion - as you're on a friggin' discussion board, not at a Nazi cheerleading competition. (And, please, read your own links: the yeshiva student, according to Haaretz, was to be brought to trial for what he did - and was barred from the area for 75 days.)

 

[Elagabalus]

...But if you really struck one of these fellows so telling a blow that, observed by the audience, he couldn't help but agree, and if you believed that this had taken you at least one step forward, your amazement was great the next day. The Jew Saggy had not the slightest recollection of the day before, he rattled off his same old nonsense as though nothing at all had happened, and, if indignantly challenged, affected amazement; he couldn't remember a thing, except that he had proved the correctness of his assertions the previous day...

FTFY.

I'll admit that he describes what you're doing here to a tee. Now, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that you're probably not Jewish (that you know of). Yet, uncle Adolf has successfully described your actions in this very thread! Is it because you're secretly Jewish and Evil? Or maybe AH was erroneously applying a trait to a group of people when this trait can exist in all men (and women). As you, yourself, have so aptly shown in your previous posts.

 

[Saggy]

Saggy, please learn how to construct an argument and carry on a discussion - as you're on a friggin' discussion board, not at a Nazi cheerleading competition.

I understand that after 70 years of constant non-stop degenerate Jewish propaganda, that the simple truth about the Germans sounds like Nazi cheerleading.

(And, please, read your own links: the yeshiva student, according to Haaretz, was to be brought to trial for what he did - and was barred from the area for 75 days.)

It is common practice, there are any number of links, e.g. United Against Spitting by Gilad Atzmon

"Jewish spitting is not exactly breaking News. I myself have explored the issue more than once. The Israeli professor Israel Shahak commented on Jewish hatred towards Christianity and its symbolism, suggesting that “dishonouring Christian religious symbols is an old religious duty in Judaism.” According to Shahak, “spitting on the cross, and especially on the Crucifix, and spitting when a Jew passes a church, have been obligatory from around AD 200 for pious Jews.”

Beyond that, the topic here is the holohoax, and the first step in understanding the holohoax, a campaign of preposterous lies by the Jews, is understanding the character of the Jews, and their relationship to the goyim. There is no better introduction, for the goyim, than holohoax survivor Israel Shahak's book 'Jewish Religion, the Weight of Three Thousand Years'.

 

[LemmyCaution]

I understand that after 70 years of constant non-stop degenerate Jewish propaganda, that the simple truth about the Germans sounds like Nazi cheerleading.

No, Nazi cheerleading sounds like Nazi cheerleading. That, and your inability to make a case for your beliefs, preferring instead merely to assert and re-assert them. E.g., posting a passage from Mein Kampf which scholars have critiqued, based on a variety of sources, is not entering into discussion - it's cheerleading. The very passage you copy-paste is the one scholars show why not to trust. You have nothing to say against their arguments, so you spam the passage again.

Beyond that, the topic here is the holohoax

Actually it isn't, you stuck your nose into a discussion of the development of Hitler's anti-Semitic views. You have no insights into the topic - and simply repeat Hitler's attempt to create a legend about himself - without analysis or reflection.

and the first step in understanding the holohoax, a campaign of preposterous lies by the Jews

Except that you've yet to prove any of what I have said about the Holocaust to be a lie or to be based on a lie. I'm 99.9% sure the same can be said as well in the case of every other member of this forum whose arguments you've dodged and whose motives and honesty you've attacked.

Except that the history of the Holocaust is written by non-Jews - some of the top scholars in the field are German of course - as well as by Jews.

understanding the character of the Jews, and their relationship to the goyim.

I have no idea what you're talking about. Why don't you try explaining? It sounds as though you're trying to say that the Jews deserved the fate they received in the Holocaust, but the Holocaust didn't happen.

As has been suggested, you need to toughen up, stop being such a dainty little snowflake, and embrace the first part of your emotion.

 

[Saggy]

I have no idea what you're talking about. Why don't you try explaining? It sounds as though you're trying to say that the Jews deserved the fate they received in the Holocaust, but the Holocaust didn't happen. .

The character of the Jews and their relation to the goyim? Why, that's too easy. I'll leave it to Ovadia Josef, former chief rabbi of Israel, who has a way with words ....

 

[LemmyCaution]

The character of the Jews and their relation to the goyim? Why, that's too easy. I'll leave it to Ovadia Josef, former chief rabbi of Israel, who has a way with words ....

[qimg]http://i.imgur.com/JK7nfcy.jpg[/qimg]

Except that the American Jewish Congress expressed revulsion at this statement, saying,

Rabbi Yosef’s remarks — suggesting outrageously that Jewish scripture asserts non-Jews exist to serve Jews — are abhorrent and an offense to human dignity and human equality. Judaism first taught the world that all individuals are created in the divine image, which helped form the basis of our moral code. A rabbi should be the first, not the last, to reflect that bedrock teaching of our tradition.

And the ADL (no doubt a favorite of yours) slammed the former chief rabbi for this sermon:

It is disturbing to see any religious leader, and particularly Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, use their podium to preach such hateful and divisive ideas. In a world where bigotry and prejudice are prevalent, it is especially important for religious leaders to use their influence to teach respect and acceptance.

And there goes your unified field theory of "the Jews" and their relationship to non-Jews.

 

[Saggy]

And there goes your unified field theory of "the Jews" and their relationship to non-Jews.

If you had only followed the antisemitism101 link, it could have saved all the confusion on your part. This vid gives the explanation, and is very informative for the goyim ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSy6ENVAJlY

Gurwitz is an Israeli former yeshiva student, he explains that the Jews have two modes of operation, 'in peaceful times', that is, when they are not in control of the situation, and then 'in the world to come', when they do. In peaceful times they throw up a smokescreen to disguise their true aims. In the world to come the masks disappear. Listening to the 10 minute vid provides a wealth of info.

 

[LemmyCaution]

No, I get that, whatever the evidence is, the Jews are guilty; whatever the evidence shows, there was no Holocaust; whatever evidence shows your paranoid claims wrong, you will continue to believe them. I knew this. No need to repeat it.

 

[Hans]

If you had only followed the antisemitism101 link,

Saggy dear this isn't a thread about your personal blog where you can go on and on about your irrational fear and hatred of Jews.

It is actually about the 'General Holocaust denial', since you simply don't know enough about the subject to mount even the most basic 'denial' attempt, and have shown repeatedly you cannot discuss, debate or do anything of value in a scholarly manner. Why do you think substituting your personal hatred of one of the groups that were victims of the holocaust is not off topic?

Let me ask you one question. Given you obvious rabid hatred of Jews why do you believe your beloved Nazis wouldn't have tried to kill them all? Shouldn't they have.

One last question, if there was a button

>>>>>button<<<<<<

that if you pressed it would kill all the Jews in the world wouldn't you press it and save the planet from their coming domination? If not why not?

 

[Saggy]

Saggy dear this isn't a thread about your personal blog where you can go on and on about your irrational fear and hatred of Jews.

It is actually about the 'General Holocaust denial', since you simply don't know enough about the subject to mount even the most basic 'denial' attempt, and have shown repeatedly you cannot discuss, debate or do anything of value in a scholarly manner. Why do you think substituting your personal hatred of one of the groups that were victims of the holocaust is not off topic?

Let me ask you one question. Given you obvious rabid hatred of Jews why do you believe your beloved Nazis wouldn't have tried to kill them all? Shouldn't they have.

One last question, if there was a button

>>>>>button<<<<<<

that if you pressed it would kill all the Jews in the world wouldn't you press it and save the planet from their coming domination? If not why not?

The character of the Jews, the character of the Nazis, Hitler's antisemitism, etc., are all relevant factors in studying the holohoax. Therefore, the information on antisemitism101.com
if correct, is relevant.
Do you find any errors on the site? If so, what are they?

 

[Hans]

...deleted evasion....

So you would betray Adolph and your race and NOT destroy the Jews? Does that mean you are under their control?

Did you not say they were going to destroy humanity?

 

[Hans]

Question for the experts since Saggy seems to be mired in confusion.

Were there any SS or other German soldiers/allies who were court-martialed for refusing to kill civilians?

 

[Degeneve]

Question for the experts since Saggy seems to be mired in confusion.

Were there any SS or other German soldiers/allies who were court-martialed for refusing to kill civilians?

Difficult to answer properly. According to German historian Wolfram Wette 22000 German soldier were court martialed and sentenced to death for desertion (with 15000 executed). It is however difficult to say what their reasons for deserting were.

One can however notice the case of Feldwebel Anton Schmid who was executed because he tried to save the life of 250 Jews.

In one of his letters to his wife je wrote:

I will tell you how this came about: there were many Jews here, who were rounded up by the Lithuanian militia and were shot in a field outside of the City, always around 2,000 to 3,000 people. The children were already killed on the way by bashing them against trees. You can only imagine

But I imagine Saggy will tell us that this is not a valid testimony proving that the Germans killed the Jews...

 

[Saggy]

Difficult to answer properly. According to German historian Wolfram Wette 22000 German soldier were court martialed and sentenced to death for desertion (with 15000 executed). It is however difficult to say what their reasons for deserting were.

One can however notice the case of Feldwebel Anton Schmid who was executed because he tried to save the life of 250 Jews.

In one of his letters to his wife je wrote:



But I imagine Saggy will tell us that this is not a valid testimony proving that the Germans killed the Jews...

"there were many Jews here, who were rounded up by the Lithuanian militia"

I have thought for some time that Jews were killed in Lithuania and Latvia by the locals in revenge ... the usual pogrom kind of thing ... for the Jews' role in the Soviet occupation. But, even here, I'm wondering, are their mass graves that have been excavated? If there is a mass killing, in this case lets say 20+, there is a mass grave. A mass killing and no excavated mass grave is suspect.