Transgender man gives birth

[DragonLady]

It is as bad as singular you. You is plural as well see historic arguments against it.

"Again, the corrupt and unsound form of speaking in the plural number to a single person, you to one, instead of thou, contrary to the pure, plain, and single language of truth, thou to one, and you to more than one, which had always been used by God to men, and men to God, as well as one to another, from the oldest record of time till corrupt men, for corrupt ends, in later and corrupt times, to flatter, fawn, and work upon the corrupt nature in men, brought in that false and senseless way of speaking you to one, which has since corrupted the modern languages, and hath greatly debased the spirits and depraved the manners of men;—this evil custom I had been as forward in as others, and this I was now called out of, and required to cease from."

https://stancarey.wordpress.com/2013/01/29/singular-they-you-and-a-senseless-way-of-speaking/

Yeah; that was in the 1700's and while using "thou" is still probably historically correct, it doesn't match what I was taught in school.

If we're all going to switch the way we use pronouns, we need a new standard for how they're used -both in speech and text. Further, it will probably be a decade or longer before a majority of people adapt, and by that time advances in medicine may make it entirely unnecessary.

 

[uke2se]

And when we don't know what that is?

"Is that your wife? Tell her I said Hi!"

Becomes at best:

"Tell them I said "Hi!"

Which doesn't quite fit with English as she are spoken. I do believe it's linguistically correct, but it's not the way most of us use the word; usually we would only use that term if someone has more than one wife.



How do we know?

Ask?

If I see a 6' muscle monkey follow my teenage daughter into a locker room or bathroom, am I really supposed to sit tight and think "Oh, I'll bet that's one of those trans-people...no worries!" Despite the far more likely chance he is a standard-issue male rapist?

Does this happen to you often? Because I'd say that problem would be much greater if you didn't allow trans-gendered people to use the bathroom of the gender they're tansitioning to than if you did.

Seriously? Or do you think you're going to at least consider the far more likely scenario: the tennis pro is a standard issue male, and your wife just enjoyed a quicky on the bathroom counter?

I don't really know what you're talking about now. Do you think we should ban trans-gendered people from entering the locker room of their assumed gender to prevent people from thinking their wife is sleeping with the tennis-coach?

I'd say:

If you have the equipment to rape women, stay out of the women's restrooms, locker rooms, etc.

Everyone does. You can rape someone with an object or digit.

If you have the equipment to be forcibly penetrated, and look like a woman*, stay out of the areas most often frequented by those heterosexuals with male parts.

So trans-women should go in the women's locker room then. They can be forcibly penetrated and they look like women.

*Yes; I realize those with male parts can be forcibly penetrated, too, but I believe it's much rarer, and those thus endowed have a far better chance of defending themselves, at least one-on-one.

You believe so?

Do you think trans-gendered people raping other people is a big issue?

 

[ponderingturtle]

How do we know?

If I see a 6' muscle monkey follow my teenage daughter into a locker room or bathroom, am I really supposed to sit tight and think "Oh, I'll bet that's one of those trans-people...no worries!" Despite the far more likely chance he is a standard-issue male rapist?

Of course he is legally obligated to use that after all.

I'd say:

If you have the equipment to rape women, stay out of the women's restrooms, locker rooms, etc.

If you have the equipment to be forcibly penetrated, and look like a woman*, stay out of the areas most often frequented by those heterosexuals with male parts.

*Yes; I realize those with male parts can be forcibly penetrated, too, but I believe it's much rarer, and those thus endowed have a far better chance of defending themselves, at least one-on-one.

So all transgender people need to use the mens room?

 

[Darat]

Yeah; that was in the 1700's and while using "thou" is still probably historically correct, it doesn't match what I was taught in school.

If we're all going to switch the way we use pronouns, we need a new standard for how they're used -both in speech and text. Further, it will probably be a decade or longer before a majority of people adapt, and by that time advances in medicine may make it entirely unnecessary.

Well that would be new for English! Why can't the language just change and evolve like it always has done.

And as a matter of perhaps interest although now sadly rapidly dying out when I was growing up and into my twenties "thou" and "thee" were the default in the local dialect.

 

[3point14]

If I see a 6' muscle monkey follow my teenage daughter into a locker room or bathroom, am I really supposed to sit tight and think "Oh, I'll bet that's one of those trans-people...no worries!" Despite the far more likely chance he is a standard-issue male rapist?

How did you calculate these odds?

 

[Aepervius]

You did say that while most of the blame lies with the murderer part of the blame lies with the TG murder victim. That's quite a bit more than you are saying now.

And I still say that the blame of not saying before hand is still on TG side.

 

[DragonLady]

Ask?

...and when you're not in a position to easily do that? This responses to this thread just get more and more inane and further removed from the pragmatic realities of human interaction.

Does this happen to you often?

I've never seen someone follow one of my children, no. But when I was younger I was followed into the washroom on two separate occasions by man-shaped people. It was creepy and scary.

I hope I don't have to explain why attempting to engage those persons in a discussion about their sexuality and or gender would not have been prudent?

Because I'd say that problem would be much greater if you didn't allow trans-gendered people to use the bathroom of the gender they're tansitioning to than if you did.

Explain? How does it make it a bigger social problem if man shaped people use a restroom intended for man shaped people? The only scenario I can imagine is that if he has female bits, he might be in danger from other men. But if he has female bits, he's probably female shaped...in which case, how does it cause more social problems if he's in a restroom intended for those with female shapes?

I don't really know what you're talking about now. Do you think we should ban trans-gendered people from entering the locker room of their assumed gender to prevent people from thinking their wife is sleeping with the tennis-coach?

If that's what you took from my post, sure. Run with it.

Personally, I'd prefer to see trans-gendered people display the same polite, accommodating, understanding, open-minded attitude the rest of us are expected to show by considering the wider social aspects of their choices when they decide which rooms to use.

Everyone does. You can rape someone with an object or digit.

Sure; got any stats for how often that happens?

So trans-women should go in the women's locker room then. They can be forcibly penetrated and they look like women.

Yes.

Problem??? Or do you think they should set themselves up to be assaulted and/or raped by doing otherwise?

You see, you can shout "victim blaming" and be technically correct. But it's no different than teaching a kid to look both ways before crossing a street. Cars hit kids with terrible effects, and teaching them to stay out of danger is just prudence. (IIRC) last I looked the CDC was saying about 20% of women will be raped in their lifetime; refusing to put themselves into potentially dangerous situations is just prudence .

It seems to me that a female shaped person with female parts, needs to be a room designed for females, even if the genetics say otherwise. It's not just a social issue in the sense of being "icky" to some; but also a safety issue for both those who are transitioning, and those who may be affected by their choices.

You believe so?

I do. Do you have any info saying otherwise? I Googled, but haven't found anything very relevant.

Do you think trans-gendered people raping other people is a big issue?

I have no idea. But I do believe opposite sex people raping each other happens pretty often.

 

[DragonLady]

Well that would be new for English! Why can't the language just change and evolve like it always has done.

And as a matter of perhaps interest although now sadly rapidly dying out when I was growing up and into my twenties "thou" and "thee" were the default in the local dialect.

Really? Where was that?

 

[Belz...]

I've never seen someone follow one of my children, no. But when I was younger I was followed into the washroom on two separate occasions by man-shaped people. It was creepy and scary.

I hope I don't have to explain why attempting to engage those persons in a discussion about their sexuality and or gender would not have been prudent?

How do you know they weren't trans-women? You are assuming their gender, which invalidates their experience and dehumanises them!

 

[Darat]

Really? Where was that?

Lancashire - same is/was true for many Yorkshire dialects.

ETA: Even mentioned in Wikipedia so it must be true: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou "...the word thou is a second person singular pronoun in English. It is now largely archaic, having been replaced in almost all contexts by you. It is used in parts of Northern England and by Scots (/ðu/). ..."

 

[DragonLady]

How did you calculate these odds?

I might need to check again for more recent numbers, but IIRC the CDC says about 20% of women (or at least female-shaped persons) will be raped at some point in their lives.

If that's a one-on-one number, that means 20% of men (or man-shaped persons) are rapists.

I suspect it's more like a one-to-three number, but have no proof. That is, I suspect one rapist has three victims before being caught.

Either way, if transgendered people only make up .3% of the population, it's far more likely the person in my scenario is in fact a standard issue male, and far more likely said male is a rapist.

Of course, like every analogy, it falls apart easily and quickly. But that doesn't change or negate the point being made.

The point is: while I'm sure transgendered people have a tough road, their choices -like everyone's- can affect far more than just themselves. If the huge majority is supposed to change their behaviors to accommodate a tiny minority, I see not reason that small group can't also modify their behaviors for the comfort of others.

 

[Ziggurat]

(IIRC) last I looked the CDC was saying about 20% of women will be raped in their lifetime.

That statistic is completely unrealistic and unreliable.

http://time.com/3393442/cdc-rape-numbers/

Included in this statistic are instances of drunk sex. The CDC nominally requires that the person be incapacitated for it to count as rape, but the actual wording of the question used to measure this doesn't. It's a crap statistic, based on a crap survey, specifically designed to inflate the numbers.

 

[DragonLady]

How do you know they weren't trans-women? You are assuming their gender, which invalidates their experience and dehumanises them!

Yes; I assumed their gender. When a man-shaped object follows a woman into a washroom, a prudent, woman conscious of her own safety makes the instant judgement -wrongly or not- that it is a man, and that she might be in danger.

To do otherwise, is to willingly make herself a potential victim.

 

[uke2se]

And I still say that the blame of not saying before hand is still on TG side.

We're talking about blame for murder.

 

[3point14]

I might need to check again for more recent numbers, but IIRC the CDC says about 20% of women (or at least female-shaped persons) will be raped at some point in their lives.

If that's a one-on-one number, that means 20% of men (or man-shaped persons) are rapists.

I suspect it's more like a one-to-three number, but have no proof. That is, I suspect one rapist has three victims before being caught.

Either way, if transgendered people only make up .3% of the population, it's far more likely the person in my scenario is in fact a standard issue male, and far more likely said male is a rapist.

Of course, like every analogy, it falls apart easily and quickly. But that doesn't change or negate the point being made.

The point is: while I'm sure transgendered people have a tough road, their choices -like everyone's- can affect far more than just themselves. If the huge majority is supposed to change their behaviors to accommodate a tiny minority, I see not reason that small group can't also modify their behaviors for the comfort of others.

I don't trust your statistical calculation in the slightest.

 

[DragonLady]

That statistic is completely unrealistic and unreliable.

http://time.com/3393442/cdc-rape-numbers/

Included in this statistic are instances of drunk sex. The CDC nominally requires that the person be incapacitated for it to count as rape, but the actual wording of the question used to measure this doesn't. It's a crap statistic, based on a crap survey, specifically designed to inflate the numbers.

Okay; thank-you for that. I'll read through your link.

 

[uke2se]

...and when you're not in a position to easily do that? This responses to this thread just get more and more inane and further removed from the pragmatic realities of human interaction.

If you're not sure, and you can't ask, maybe don't worry about it? We're talking about being polite to someone's face. If you can't ask, you're hardly talking directly to someone.

I've never seen someone follow one of my children, no. But when I was younger I was followed into the washroom on two separate occasions by man-shaped people. It was creepy and scary.

I hope I don't have to explain why attempting to engage those persons in a discussion about their sexuality and or gender would not have been prudent?

Were those men trans-gendered? Did they behave inappropriately towards you? I mean, beside occupying the same room as you. If so, perhaps the problem is those men, and not all trans-gendered people?

Explain? How does it make it a bigger social problem if man shaped people use a restroom intended for man shaped people? The only scenario I can imagine is that if he has female bits, he might be in danger from other men. But if he has female bits, he's probably female shaped...in which case, how does it cause more social problems if he's in a restroom intended for those with female shapes?

We are talking about trans-gendered people. Trans-women often look like women, and trans-men often look like men. Sometimes they have bits that fit, and sometimes not.

If a trans-woman should go to the locker room which best fits the way she looks, it would normally be the women's locker-room, penis or no penis. Same for trans-men.

If that's what you took from my post, sure. Run with it.

Personally, I'd prefer to see trans-gendered people display the same polite, accommodating, understanding, open-minded attitude the rest of us are expected to show by considering the wider social aspects of their choices when they decide which rooms to use.

Oh, I'm sure you do. But why would you expect them to do so while refusing to do so yourself?

Sure; got any stats for how often that happens?

Nope, as that's not really a statistic that is saved. Rape is rape, whether by penis or some other implement. I can tell you from experience of being a LEO and working for courts that rape with another implement than a penis is exceptionally common.

Yes.

Problem??? Or do you think they should set themselves up to be assaulted and/or raped by doing otherwise?

No, I'm cool with that. Trans-women go into the women's locker room. It's what I've been saying all along.

It seems to me that a female shaped person with female parts, needs to be a room designed for females, even if the genetics say otherwise. It's not just a social issue in the sense of being "icky" to some; but also a safety issue for both those who are transitioning, and those who may be affected by their choices.

What about a female shaped person with male parts?

I have no idea. But I do believe opposite sex people raping each other happens pretty often.

But we're talking specifically about trans-gendered people here.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I might need to check again for more recent numbers, but IIRC the CDC says about 20% of women (or at least female-shaped persons) will be raped at some point in their lives.

Yea but that is mostly by friends and family, totally irrelevant to the issue at hand here other than promoting fear.

 

[Aepervius]

We're talking about blame for murder.

And we already know that you assign no blame whatsoever to the person which intentionally generated such a situation, and would not advise against palcing oneself in such situation. Whatever. I think by that point our position are in black on white and we don't need to spam the board.

 

[applecorped]

And we already know that you assign no blame whatsoever to the person which intentionally generated such a situation. Whatever. I think by that point our position are in black on white and we don't need to spam the board.

We?

Strawmen in fields......forever