Transgender man gives birth

You are saying that it's about whether someone claiming to be of a specific gender is enough to make that person that gender, which is an odd question.

Why is it an odd question? It's a factual question like any other.


As to your specific problem, the answer is both yes and no. It's enough for that person, and any person interacting with that person on a casual level.

Why do you presume to speak for any of those? Furthermore, the question is objective. It either applies to all or none.

The thing is, we're not talking about just "claiming" to be a specific gender.

Yes we are. We're often told that whatever you feel you are, you are. This is ridiculous on its face, and those who in this thread have said that it isn't the sole criteria for identity seem to agree, but we're yet to see a list of criteria from those who ask _us_ for a liste of criteria.
 
Why is it an odd question? It's a factual question like any other.

I try to explain it later in the post.



Why do you presume to speak for any of those? Furthermore, the question is objective. It either applies to all or none.

I speak only to my understanding of the issue.


Yes we are.

No, we're not.

We're often told that whatever you feel you are, you are.

By whom? Examples please.

This is ridiculous on its face, and those who in this thread have said that it isn't the sole criteria for identity seem to agree, but we're yet to see a list of criteria from those who ask _us_ for a liste of criteria.

I've given you a shortlist and you quoted it. It's by no means conclusive, but it's better than you've done.
 
What are we worried will happen in locker rooms?


Does this mean we need a different locker room for homosexuals?

The second question is interesting, and in both cases we're talking about minorities. To your first question, however, I think it has to do with people in general not being comfortable (to say the least) with being nude in front of people of the opposite sex. Your self-identification doesn't change your body, and everybody around you can see that. It's a social barrier, mind you, and that can change, I suppose, over time, but in the mean time it's no wonder that many, perhaps most people would be uncomfortable in such a situation. And personally I prefer the solution with the fewer people made uncomfortable, all else being equal.

Does that make any sense to you?
 
My issue with the above is that, as you describe, you have an issue. If it's your issue, shouldn't it be you that deals with it?

My "issue" is shared by billions of people around the world. It is not normal for people to walk around naked and unafraid. It is basic human nature and codified in law. I'm not going to get into this argument, I already stated that we are not the odd ones out.

Funny that you think an "issue" shared by billions of people is "our problem" but the transgender issue, which is shared by a tiny fraction of a minority, is also our problem. WE are the ones that must move the heavens and the earth to cater to these people lest we be called bigots.
 
Why do you care? Serious question.

I think we can reduce the answer to this, in the end: the fear that counter-factual beliefs could affect legislation.

Let's say the person on the pic you could see has a vagina.

That's some picture angle, then. Did you mean "vulva"?

Nobody thinks that.

Few people think that. There are some who actually think biological sex is a social construct.

We are not the odd ones here, we are not abnormal

Ah, but in the SJW mindset, the majority is always wrong. It's a kind of bizarro nonsense to the reverse, equally idiotic mindset that minorities are irrelevant.
 
The second question is interesting, and in both cases we're talking about minorities. To your first question, however, I think it has to do with people in general not being comfortable (to say the least) with being nude in front of people of the opposite sex. Your self-identification doesn't change your body, and everybody around you can see that. It's a social barrier, mind you, and that can change, I suppose, over time, but in the mean time it's no wonder that many, perhaps most people would be uncomfortable in such a situation. And personally I prefer the solution with the fewer people made uncomfortable, all else being equal.

Does that make any sense to you?

Would you (or your hypothetical man) be comfortable changing in the same room as this person?
 
As for this whole issue of "it's a small thing to call someone by their preferred pronouns, why is it a big deal?"

To me, it's about the idea of control. When you insist that someone use phrases and terms that they don't believe in you are immediately creating a power imbalance in the relationship. The military understood this a long time ago with its use of "sir" for example.
Nobody is forcing you to use any pronoun (except when you're an employer in NYC apccording to the harrassment law cited upthread). You can call people anything you want, and they can think what they want about how you call them.
If you think that the pronouns in "Excuse me sir/madam, do you know where the train station is?" are somehow about controlling you, then you could always leave the pronouns out and nothing about the question would change.

This can be taken to extremes as has been mentioned in this very thread. What if I believe I'm the Queen of England and you should address me as "your majesty," how many would cater to my whim? Why not? It's a little thing, what do you have to lose?
What if I am a devout Christian who insists that each mention of Jesus should be followed by "our lord and savior forever amen." Why wouldn't you humor me and do that, it's just a few extra words, what's the big deal.

There are good reasons to not go with that but it will always come down to special pleading. You choose to protect the feelings of transpeople by obliging their fantasies, but you refuse to do so for christians because reasons.
I'd say there's a difference between addressing someone directly and talking about a third party. If you're talking to someone, you're going to have to call them something sooner or later. And the way English works, that's probably going to involve a gendered pronoun.
Of course, you could always decide not to talk about Jesus to people who demand you address Jesus in a certain way, and you could always decide not to use gendered pronouns or talk to transgender peopleat all, if they want you to call them something you feel they aren't. Sure, they won't like that, but just as they can't force you to call them sir/madam, you can't force them to like that or shut up about it.

The sad thing is I was going to use mohammed and PBUH as the example and then I realized that leftists would probably go along with that to protect muslims' fragile feelings.
Sure they would, those nasty leftists. No strawman there...
I (apparently a leftist for diagreeing with you) would have the same reaction no matter which god or prophet people would want me to grovel before: You can call them whatever you like, but I'm not a part of your religion, so I won't.

So at the end of the day ideology trumps all as usual. Leftists are willing to cater to their own in groups and will pat themselves on the back for being oh so compassionate while coming up with all sorts of silly rationalizations to not giving the outgroups the same treatment.
How is the existence of transgender people a left-right thing? :confused:
What would a proper 'right wing' treatment of these people be?
 
My "issue" is shared by billions of people around the world. It is not normal for people to walk around naked and unafraid. It is basic human nature and codified in law. I'm not going to get into this argument, I already stated that we are not the odd ones out.

What are you talking about? Who's requiring you to walk around naked and unafraid?

Funny that you think an "issue" shared by billions of people is "our problem" but the transgender issue, which is shared by a tiny fraction of a minority, is also our problem. WE are the ones that must move the heavens and the earth to cater to these people lest we be called bigots.

Nobody's asking you to move heaven and Earth. We're only asking that you are polite to people and that when you're in a locker room, keep your eyes to yourself.
 
My "issue" is shared by billions of people around the world. It is not normal for people to walk around naked and unafraid. It is basic human nature and codified in law.

It is fairly normal behavior in a locker room though, isn't it?


I'm not going to get into this argument, I already stated that we are not the odd ones out.

The world changes, things move on. Sometimes we have to change with it.

Funny that you think an "issue" shared by billions of people is "our problem" but the transgender issue, which is shared by a tiny fraction of a minority, is also our problem. WE are the ones that must move the heavens and the earth to cater to these people lest we be called bigots.

But you can say that about any social shift in the last umpteen years.

"Why should I have to put up with women in the workplace, it's 1950, there's only a few women want to come work here, why should we majority, the men in the office, have to put up with women here. They're the minority, why should we change our attitude and actions?"
 
No, we're not.

So the person's self-identification is largely irrelevant, then? Then what the hell are you guys arguing?

By whom? Examples please.

Just type the phrase into google. The point is that I've seen it done before, by the most extremists of the left.

I've given you a shortlist and you quoted it. It's by no means conclusive, but it's better than you've done.

I've done the same, so how is it better?
 
So the person's self-identification is largely irrelevant, then? Then what the hell are you guys arguing?

No it isn't. Perhaps if you read the thread you would understand? :p


Just type the phrase into google. The point is that I've seen it done before, by the most extremists of the left.

Please provide evidence for your own assertions. It shouldn't be a problem because as you say, it happens 'often'.


I've done the same, so how is it better?

I must have missed it. Linky to post?
 
The second question is interesting, and in both cases we're talking about minorities. To your first question, however, I think it has to do with people in general not being comfortable (to say the least) with being nude in front of people of the opposite sex. Your self-identification doesn't change your body, and everybody around you can see that. It's a social barrier, mind you, and that can change, I suppose, over time, but in the mean time it's no wonder that many, perhaps most people would be uncomfortable in such a situation. And personally I prefer the solution with the fewer people made uncomfortable, all else being equal.

Does that make any sense to you?


In that it's logically consistent, yes. As I mention above, things move on, all sorts of things have made the majority uncomfortable that we now realise were driven by societal bigotry. I hope we're slowly getting over that.

there are a lot of unpleasant things that would still be happening if we just went by what made the majority most comfortable. I don't think society actually works like that. In fact, the phrase 'tyranny of the majority' sprigs to mind.
 
I assume you're not working on:

Can have babies = Woman
Cannot have babies = Man.
Inverted in Albania. If the family patriarch dies without a male successor, a woman from the family takes over the role. Thenceforward, she dresses like a man, acts like a man and represents the family to the community as if she were a man. Which, to the eyes of the community, she now is. She is admitted to the village council, which admits only men. She is no longer permitted to socialize with women, but must instead participate in the social activity reserved to men in the community. It is at once an amazingly sexist, and an amazingly gender fluid society. A society in which man = cannot have babies.


This signature is intended to irradiate people.
 
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Serious question, not a setup or anything : how would said treatment differ if one identified as a man vs if one identified as a woman? I'm not talking about pronoun or first name use, and I don't want to focus on the locker/bathroom portion (I personally don't care who uses which room at all). In an average social situation if I were to (at their request) call an outwardly appearing male "Jane", and use "her/she", what other differences in treatment would be expected or desired as compared to if they prefered "Jim" and "his/he"?

I've asked here and elsewhere about the nuts and bolts of 'what does it mean, at a practical level, to identify as <x>', and various people have tried to explain, but I still don't really understand. I'm not trying to reject the concept out of hand, but I honestly don't understand how a word like "man" has any utility or meaning if it's so wide that someone can be a "man" can give birth. What then, precisely, would differentiate a man from a woman in that sort of circumstance, from the PoV of people saying that a man gave birth in the stated example? Edit to add : if the answer is something along the lines of the way they feel inside, then what is that feeling? What specific things would feel differently inside when identifying as one vs. the other?

This really isn't any sort of trap. If there's a request or demand that people be 'treated as <x>', can we at least start with defining what <x> and <not x> are, because to me at least it's confusing and not at all clear, and I've tried for some time to get various people to explain it.

I honestly don't know. I just treat people as people, regardless of their gender. In nearly all instances, I wouldn't treat a man differently than I would a woman. So for me, the pronoun thing would be purely cosmetic.

I've never had to think about my gender identity much, because mine matches my body. So I probably can't fully grasp how it feels for transgender people to just know that something is wrong with their body.
Or how it feels when someone uses the 'wrong' pronoun. To me sir/madam is just an interjection or a courtesy, and I don't really think about it.
But I can imagine that the distinction is more important to someone who has struggled with their identity and how they are percieved for years or decades.

I don't know how it feels to have a gender identity that doesn't match my sex. I could try to imagine what it would be like to wake up tomorrow in a body that I'm sure isn't mine, while people treat me as if nothing was wrong, and that would be horrifying.
But I'm probably not the right guy to ask for an explanation.
 

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