Transgender man gives birth

Is that your criterion?

Hopefully you never argue against creationists. I mean, it's no effort to just pretend that their beliefs are true. So why make an issue of it?

I wouldn't, actually. Unless their beliefs were somehow negatively impacting me or it was in the context of a larger discussion about creationism vs evolution.

But what does any of that have to do with referring to a transgender person by their preferred gender?
 
I wouldn't, actually. Unless their beliefs were somehow negatively impacting me or it was in the context of a larger discussion about creationism vs evolution.

But what does any of that have to do with referring to a transgender person by their preferred gender?

It has to do with your criterion, which was the amount of effort required, remember?
 
ponderingturtle said:

For the same reason that a chair shouldn't be worth a house: I just don't think the two are equivalent in value.

The point of these penalties is to hurt the companies that tolerate such activity to convince them not to.

If we're talking about a company in which such sort of behaviour is tolerated, sure, the fine should be higher than if it's directed at a middle-class person. In fact, I'm all for fines to be proportional to the means of the person being fined, like taxes.

So I see your point.

No you didn't.

I did. I pointed out that one is an objective measure and the other a subjective one.

Edited by jsfisher: 
Edited to remove link to moderated content, but otherwise allow the conversation to continue.
 
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Right, which is basically none.

So my question remains: Why make an issue of it?

It seems like you're dancing around the issue. When I point out that the logic you're using would mean that we should never challenge other people's religious beliefs, you wonder why I bring it up. When I explain why by going back to your original comment, suddenly you forget about my point and ask me to get back on topic.

Does your logic apply to all beliefs or no? Is it rude and, I've heard, dehumanising to tell a theist that you think their god doesn't exist?
 
For the same reason that a chair shouldn't be worth a house: I just don't think the two are equivalent in value.

Depends on the chair, I am sure you can find chairs and houses that the chair is legitimately worth more.

As for it being a house, of course it isn't. The law is only in new york city and you are simply not going to be able to buy a house in NYC for $125000, so why even bring that up?

If we're talking about a company in which such sort of behaviour is tolerated, sure, the fine should be higher than if it's directed at a middle-class person. In fact, I'm all for fines to be proportional to the means of the person being fined, like taxes.

Almost as if we should let the jury decide. Like the law you hate does. It just sets a maximum for harassment based on gender.
I did. I pointed out that one is an objective measure and the other a subjective one.

I don't have the medical records of my coworkers to know if they are males, females or something else medically. I only know what they want to be called and how they present themselves. Where do you work that you have that kind of highly detailed personal medical information about all your coworkers?
 
Depends on the chair, I am sure you can find chairs and houses that the chair is legitimately worth more.

I'm sure you know I'm talking about regular chairs, not Ramsesses II's throne.

I don't have the medical records of my coworkers to know if they are males, females or something else medically.

People have been able to identify males and females on sight for millennia. You're doing it wrong.
 
I don't know the financial circumstances of this fellow who gave birth the other day, but I wonder if he's eligible for the WIC program. Should he be? That program is only available to women. Maybe we need to end this unconstitutional discrimination.

(For those unfamiliar, the WIC program is meant to ensure that poor children can get good nutrition. That begins in the womb. It provides food money to pregnant women, and to caregivers of small children. There is no provision in the law for pregnant men.)
 
It seems like you're dancing around the issue. When I point out that the logic you're using would mean that we should never challenge other people's religious beliefs, you wonder why I bring it up. When I explain why by going back to your original comment, suddenly you forget about my point and ask me to get back on topic.

Does your logic apply to all beliefs or no? Is it rude and, I've heard, dehumanising to tell a theist that you think their god doesn't exist?

We're not talking about challenging beliefs or being forced to believe something that you don't.

We're talking about simply affording someone a little respect and consideration. That's it.

I'll put it to you another way, since you want to drag creationism and religion into the discussion. I'm a foul-mouthed atheist. Close friends of mine are devout Christians. Not bible-thumping evangelicals, but Christians nonetheless. One of these friends is offended by cursing. Personally, I think it's a silly thing to be offended over. But out respect for my friend, I do not curse when I am in her presence.

Now I suppose I could make a principled stand and challenge her beliefs every time I feel like cursing, but I find it easier to just be respectful.

There's more important things in life than being right all the time.
 
While I am firmly in the camp of calling people whatever they prefer and leaving it at that, I'm also in agreement that the stated penalty for "harassment" is too steep if it is applied uniformly every time someone says the wrong thing. But is it? Is it a minimum penalty? Would the person in question think it harassment if it's a misunderstanding? Would a case ever occur here? Would it not make a difference whether one misunderstands a situation or whether one, as the original poster implies he would, insists on it on the basis of some perceived notion of rightness and truth that overrides the ideas of others?

We're in a very abstract territory here, it seems. We're all presented at times with situations that make us uncomfortable, about which we would at least secretly want to make nasty comments. Sometimes those comments may be warranted, and sometimes not. Sometimes we understand what's going on and sometimes we don't. Both times, I think, it's likely they can be omitted without hardship. Why should one actually give a damn? If a person with a vagina wants to be called a man, how can you know what's going on in that mind, or that blood stream? Why not just do it? You can spout off about it later at the pub, and feel righteous amid all the laughs and snickers.
 
We're not talking about challenging beliefs (snip)

Yes, that is exactly what we're talking about. The belief that one is one gender and not the other.

We're talking about simply affording someone a little respect and consideration. That's it.

We're talking about the respect and consideration of not challenging people's beliefs. The distinction you're making does not change that.

I'll put it to you another way, since you want to drag creationism and religion into the discussion.

I'm using it as an analogy. Those are useful in discussion, sometimes. Well, useful except to those who don't like their implications, of course.

I'm a foul-mouthed atheist.

Welcome to the club, tabarnaque!

Close friends of mine are devout Christians. Not bible-thumping evangelicals, but Christians nonetheless. One of these friends is offended by cursing. Personally, I think it's a silly thing to be offended over. But out respect for my friend, I do not curse when I am in her presence.

You don't go out of your way to curse in their presence, which is good. But if you slip a few times, hopefully you're not told you're a bigot who's dehumanising them and invalidating their experiences.
 
While I am firmly in the camp of calling people whatever they prefer and leaving it at that, I'm also in agreement that the stated penalty for "harassment" is too steep if it is applied uniformly every time someone says the wrong thing. But is it? Is it a minimum penalty? Would the person in question think it harassment if it's a misunderstanding? Would a case ever occur here? Would it not make a difference whether one misunderstands a situation or whether one, as the original poster implies he would, insists on it on the basis of some perceived notion of rightness and truth that overrides the ideas of others?

We're in a very abstract territory here, it seems. We're all presented at times with situations that make us uncomfortable, about which we would at least secretly want to make nasty comments. Sometimes those comments may be warranted, and sometimes not. Sometimes we understand what's going on and sometimes we don't. Both times, I think, it's likely they can be omitted without hardship. Why should one actually give a damn? If a person with a vagina wants to be called a man, how can you know what's going on in that mind, or that blood stream? Why not just do it? You can spout off about it later at the pub, and feel righteous amid all the laughs and snickers.

Silly question: does that logic apply to trans-racials and otherkin?
 
Perhaps the concept of sexes is hazier than previously conceived. Maybe it's the definitions that should be reconsidered, rather than attempting to force reality to fit the definitions we should make the definitions more flexible to describe reality?

Just because Ug and Grug perceived exactly two distinct sexes a hundred thousand years ago doesn't mean we're stuck with that forever, does it?
"Uterus" is a pretty binary condition to have.

"I'm a uterine male."

"So you're a woman, then?"

"No, I'm--"

"Oh my God I already don't care anymore."

This signature is intended to irradiate people.
 
Silly question: does that logic apply to trans-racials and otherkin?
I'm not even sure what those are, nor whether there are laws and rules of terminology involved. I would, however, generally say that unless someone's peculiarity impinges on your life in some way, it's prudent to guess that there is something about it that you may not understand, and shut up about it.
 
And not houses in detroit.

Haven't they foreclosed on that city yet?

I'm not even sure what those are, nor whether there are laws and rules of terminology involved. I would, however, generally say that unless someone's peculiarity impinges on your life in some way, it's prudent to guess that there is something about it that you may not understand, and shut up about it.

Cool. That way I can say that I'm a british battlecruiser and people can pay to see me when I'm in harbour. And you can't tell me I'm not because that would be rude.
 
While I am firmly in the camp of calling people whatever they prefer and leaving it at that, I'm also in agreement that the stated penalty for "harassment" is too steep if it is applied uniformly every time someone says the wrong thing. But is it? Is it a minimum penalty? Would the person in question think it harassment if it's a misunderstanding? Would a case ever occur here? Would it not make a difference whether one misunderstands a situation or whether one, as the original poster implies he would, insists on it on the basis of some perceived notion of rightness and truth that overrides the ideas of others?

The link to the law was posted. Hell misgendering someone accidentally would not even fall under it. It is like how asking a coworker on a date is not sexual harassment. But constantly asking them and pressuring them to go out with you is.

And the penalty is the maximum, the jury can award less of course.

But people need a straw law to pretend it is crazy.
 

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