Since Saggy could pretend there are translation mistakes I also post a link to the same page in German so he can check by himself the translation is accurate: https://www.bundesarchiv.de/gedenkbuch/chronicles.html.de?page=4
-
Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more
General Holocaust denial discussion Part III
- Thread starter Matthew Ellard
- Start date
- Status
Since Saggy could pretend there are translation mistakes I also post a link to the same page in German so he can check by himself the translation is accurate: https://www.bundesarchiv.de/gedenkbuch/chronicles.html.de?page=4
Elagabalus
Philosopher
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2013
- Messages
- 7,051
You, of course, informed you daughter that it was all a hoax before her trip to the Holohoax museum?
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
Of course he did.
With my daughters, I ask them "What do you think? And why?"
Our proponent seems to be on a diametric trajectory.
Hans
Philosopher
- Joined
- May 10, 2007
- Messages
- 9,266
How can you do that if you scream that you won't read their degenerate lies?
How do you know they are degenerative? You seem rather confused and contradictory.
Do you mean you read what others want you to believe instead of researching the actual history?
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
Saggy has failed to heed the lessons of Sun Tsu, Chapter 3
"What is of supreme importance in war is to attack the enemy's strategy. It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperilled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperilled in every single battle"
How can you attack the validity of the Holocaust if you refuse to read anything about it other than from hoax site. You end up living in an echo chamber!
Last edited:
LemmyCaution
Master Poster
- Joined
- Mar 8, 2011
- Messages
- 2,857
Very, very well said.
On top of which is Saggy's apparent and complete lack of intellectual curiosity. Without engaging arguments he doesn't like, Saggy winds up talking to, and reassuring, himself. I begin to doubt the claimed basis for his views - supposedly study (of revisionist works) - and wonder if all Saggy brings to the table is the few dated links he repetitively posts.
What's happening here is typical pigeon chess...
LemmyCaution
Master Poster
- Joined
- Mar 8, 2011
- Messages
- 2,857
One posture deniers adopt is that of discovering "historical truth" - disinterested inquiry. Of course, that's in fact what scholars have long been doing and continue to do, with large and interesting output in this area, including many truly revisionist works that deepen understanding of the period. Anyone with an interest in the Third Reich, the war, the Holocaust, indeed modern Europe would not only read a but welcome this vibrant, often surprising work.
By contrast, Saggy, beaming with pride, has told us that he won't even look at the large body of research on the Holocaust, nicely exposing the claim of disinterested "truth-finder" as totally bogus. He seems to know little about the period, let alone the discoveries, debates, and discourse of scholars who study it. But this proud ignorance, typical of HD, also raises the question, what are the aims of HDers? If they aren't interested in the history, and indeed many like Saggy refuse even to find out what historians and other scholars say, what is their interest in the Holocaust?
Saggy has, thankfully, given us a number of rather broad hints as to his interest: he believes that Judaism is going to kill us all; he believes that Jews have been conditioned by millennia of self-absorption, lying duplicity, and contempt for everything in the world save themselves; and he doesn't expect Judaism to survive. He couples these beliefs with what he calls "the degenerate lies of the hoax." In this, his denial is extremely ordinary and based on the same foundation as that of most deniers.
By contrast, Saggy, beaming with pride, has told us that he won't even look at the large body of research on the Holocaust, nicely exposing the claim of disinterested "truth-finder" as totally bogus. He seems to know little about the period, let alone the discoveries, debates, and discourse of scholars who study it. But this proud ignorance, typical of HD, also raises the question, what are the aims of HDers? If they aren't interested in the history, and indeed many like Saggy refuse even to find out what historians and other scholars say, what is their interest in the Holocaust?
Saggy has, thankfully, given us a number of rather broad hints as to his interest: he believes that Judaism is going to kill us all; he believes that Jews have been conditioned by millennia of self-absorption, lying duplicity, and contempt for everything in the world save themselves; and he doesn't expect Judaism to survive. He couples these beliefs with what he calls "the degenerate lies of the hoax." In this, his denial is extremely ordinary and based on the same foundation as that of most deniers.
Last edited:
I'm working on a hoax primer which I'll post when complete, maybe in sections, it's turning out to be bigger than I anticipated. Stay tuned.
In the meantime ...
"Judaism is going to kill us all" - this is my fear, that US/Israeli military aggression will provoke WW III. Even today the US congress is passing sanctions against Russia and Russia is responding. This is complete insanity driven by US/Israeli aggression.
" Jews have been conditioned by millennia of self-absorption, lying duplicity, and contempt for everything in the world save themselves; " No question about that.
"doesn't expect Judaism to survive. " I don't see how Judaism can survive the lies of the holohoax, coupled with the ethnic cleansing of Palestine. I'm hoping the rest of us can survive.
"the degenerate lies of the hoax." Why 'degenerate'? We are accustomed to heroic lies, but to lie about one's craven cowardness and weakness, with Jewish sondercommandos cajoling their friends and relatives, even mothers and daughters, to stroll into the gas chambers, is really a unique phenomenon on the world stage.
"based on the same foundation as that of most deniers" I'm sure you're thinking antisemitism, but you've put the cart before the horse. I expect that anyone who understands the holohoax will on that basis alone become an antisemite.
LemmyCaution
Master Poster
- Joined
- Mar 8, 2011
- Messages
- 2,857
Based on what?
Leaving aside the merits, er, lack thereof, this is irrelevant to whether the Germans carried out a mass murder of Jews during WWII. Yet you inject these sorts of "observations" into discussion of WWII and the Holocaust.
Feel free to prove to us that survivors of the Sonderkommando lied about what they were forced to do. You haven't begun to do so. I ask that you start with the Auschwitz Sonderkommando manuscripts.
Mere assertion is not proof, please be aware, no matter how many times or emotionally the assertion is repeated.
Of course I haven't: since there is voluminous evidence for the genocide - AND you, for example, refuse to engage with it (hint: the case of the Netherlands), even refusing to read works you disagree with a priori - one is left wondering why a handful of people using techniques like yours, and who are anti-Semites, rail against the facticity of the Holocaust.
Last edited:
Elagabalus
Philosopher
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2013
- Messages
- 7,051
ah... OK, so you're saying that you believe the "sondercommandos" stories even though the stories, according to you, are false?
LemmyCaution
Master Poster
- Joined
- Mar 8, 2011
- Messages
- 2,857
The way I read it was that he wanted to say that the Sonderkommando members debased themselves as murderers of their own people, but he realizes that screws the pooch for him - so instead he insults the SK men as degenerates willing to degrade themselves to put across a lie. But I'll be the first to say that he's not being clear . . . except about his antipathy.
Elagabalus
Philosopher
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2013
- Messages
- 7,051
For me it's just not very clear. Sigh .... I miss the Rizoli Bros ....
Nessie
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2012
- Messages
- 16,726
That you have refused to answer my questions and points about the Dutch Jews, proves you are not interested in working on a full and proper research of the Holocaust. Your avoidance of my questions and points means you lose the debate and the Holocaust took place as claimed, where by c101,000 Dutch Jews died, including c34,000 murdered at Sobibor.
CaptainHowdy
Graduate Poster
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2012
- Messages
- 1,819
Never been the door of the gas chamber? It looks like the door of the gas chamber https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/media_ph.php?ModuleId=0&MediaId=670"]according to the Holocaust Museum.
The same type of door wasn't used at every gas chamber. This is a photograph of the door to the gas chamber at Dachau from the Holocaust Museum collection:
http://idamclient.ushmm.org/IMAGES/...e=1&width=800&height=800&qfactor=2&type=asset
And yet another photograph of a different gas chamber door:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-irLWLoWqX...1600/Auschwitz+1%2C2%2C3+January+2012+437.JPG
Edited by Agatha:
Hotlinked pictures turned into URLs in accordance with rule 5. Please do not hotlink unless the originating site explicitly permits it.
Have all these doors been debunked? Does that prove there were no gas chambers?
Last edited by a moderator:
Neither one really looks like a door to a shower room. I would have thought the Nazis could do better.
Axxman300
Philosopher
They did.
The wood door you keep posting was washroom door for the "Laying Out Room" or autopsy room, not the gas chamber:
https://www.scrapbookpages.com/AuschwitzScrapbook/Tour/Auschwitz1/Auschwitz07A.html
The Nazis did better. If you want to be an antisemite you need to up your game.
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
The translation of the signage on the door
Vorsicht! Gas! = Attention! Gas!
Gaszeit = Gas times
Zu = To
Auf = On
(times written in chalk)
Lebensgefahr = Risk of Death
Nicht Offnen = Do not open
This is a warning to whoever is going to open the door not to do so at certain times. This would either be an access door that the Sonderkommando or guards would go through to remove the bodies for disposal, or if it was a main entrance to the gas chamber, then the guards would have to make sure that the door was fully open before the victims came in.
Last edited:
Thank goodness the Jews didn't understand German, the whole 'shower room' ruse would have been for nothing.
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
For heaven's sake did you actually READ what I posted, or just shoot your mouth off as usual!
NOTE: I noticed that you hadn't posted here for a few days. I was rather hoping that meant you were away reading up on your enemy. Sadly, it looks like that was a forlorn hope.... you obviously wish to remain ignorant. Oh well, your choice!
Last edited:
- Status