CCW holder killed reaching for ID.

[Mumbles]

This makes no sense to me. How would I be killed? By what method?

To be fair, as a black guy in the US, I would *never* get out of my car when pulled over by a cop, unless told to do so.

Of course, Sean Hannity has said that he sometimes no only gets out of his car, but also lifts his shirt so that the cop can freaking see where his concealed gun is. But he's somewhat famous, and white.

Here's the funny part - police and their friends will come up with a milliuon and one excuses for why it was perfectly reasonable to beat or kill a random black guy. But they're incredibly offended when the parents of a black boy teach him to treat cops like rabid dogs, and insist that Black Lives Matter is racist or terrorist for saying "stop killing us".

 

[ponderingturtle]

Yep. We may need to outlaw concealed carry just to protect the police. They can't seem to handle it.

I tried to go to the NRA site to see if they had any comment after being called out by The Daily Show. Their website is horrendous. I didn't see anything related, but I can't attest to them not having something on there.

The NRA is never going to go against the police.

 

[Dr. Keith]

The NRA is never going to go against the police.

An obedient gun owner may as well not own a gun.

 

[ponderingturtle]

An obedient gun owner may as well not own a gun.

But only thugs go against the police, everyone knows that. As models of law and order they will always support the police.

 

[CORed]

This is true in many cases - not just murderers, but for police that are far too violent in general. In this case, though, they stated explicitly that they were going to provide training to get him out of policing, so with any luck he won't be out panicking and shooting people again.

I think police officers like this one may be more dangerous than the deliberate bullies, and there seem to be way too many of them out there. a Bully's behavior is at least somewhat predictable. You never know when one of these high-strung cowards is going to imagine that somebody taking their wallet out of his pocket is pulling a gun and shoot them.

 

[3point14]

To be fair, as a black guy in the US, I would *never* get out of my car when pulled over by a cop, unless told to do so.

As far as I can see, and things are probably grossly distorted in the reporting, if one is black in America, there are a lot of things one has to do that seem, quite honestly, *********** unreasonable, in order to not get shot.


I still want to know how alfaniner thinks I'm going to be in trouble getting out of my car when stopped by police.

 

[Ranb]

....But anyway, an officer is obviously going to fear for their life if they think someone is reaching for a gun and ignoring loud commands to not do so. It would essentially be impossible for the officer to not fear for his life at that point.

The gun wasn't even out in plain view when the officer opened fire.

We don't need 150 pound pussies walking about with a badge and gun if they're going to shoot at the slightest provocation.

 

[3point14]

You say this so dismissively. As though the Officer is just blatantly and obviously BSing after the fact when he says he feared for his life.

Is the nervous citizen, in the presence of an apparently dangerous LEO with his weapon drawn, afforded the same license?

 

[alfaniner]

I still want to know how alfaniner thinks I'm going to be in trouble getting out of my car when stopped by police.

Because I know someone who was shot and killed by a policeman doing that very thing.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I still want to know how alfaniner thinks I'm going to be in trouble getting out of my car when stopped by police.

It is simple police are wired to fear traffic stops far beyond any actual risk from them, in part because videos of police getting killed at traffic stops. The police cars getting plowed into by drunk drivers might kill more but there isn't emotionally effective video from them.

So you don't act in the way the police officer is expecting you will be more likely to get a violent response. Getting out is not expected. You want to survive a traffic stop you have to be very careful.

 

[3point14]

Because I know someone who was shot and killed by a policeman doing that very thing.

Where?

 

[3point14]

It is simple police are wired to fear traffic stops far beyond any actual risk from them, in part because videos of police getting killed at traffic stops. The police cars getting plowed into by drunk drivers might kill more but there isn't emotionally effective video from them.

So you don't act in the way the police officer is expecting you will be more likely to get a violent response. Getting out is not expected. You want to survive a traffic stop you have to be very careful.

I really, really don't.

There may be a geographical disconnect here.

 

[alfaniner]

Where?

You must have missed this post.

 

[3point14]

You must have missed this post.

I think you miss my point. I have not been explicit.

I don't live in the USA. The police here are not routinely armed. I'd need to look up the stats, but I don't believe that the police here have ever shot dead an innocent man at a traffic stop.

I can't imagine what I'd have to do to get shot by the police due to a misunderstanding while interacting with them. I'm fairly sure it's impossible but I'm open to feasible scenarios.


Edit: There was a guy with a baguette that got shot? It's a vague memory.

 

[mgidm86]

I really, really don't.

There may be a geographical disconnect here.

You've been dying to say it for two pages now...please make your all important, thread-winning gotcha...

ETA:
All the videos I saw up until today - the one with the girlfriend in the car right after the shooting - were backwards. I thought that she was the driver because in the videos she appears to be on the driver's side.

Now today, after hearing about how the guy was pulled over, I rechecked the videos. Some are reversed.

This one is reversed as they show it on a TV news broadcast.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxyQtvv_1i8

All this time I thought the cop shot him from the passenger side and that Castillo was the passenger. Am I the only one?

 

[3point14]

You've been dying to say it for two pages now...please make your all important, thread-winning gotcha...

I was intrigued to see how long it took someone to work out that it's entirely possible for someone to be posting from outside the US where our interactions with the police don't have quite the same flavour as some of those in the US.


Given this extract from the exchange:

That's not very wise.

Only where you live...

I think the accusations of attempted gotcha-ing aren't entirely fair. Perhaps I should have repeated myself, yes, but when I've been fairly explicit, during the actual thread, I didn't really feel the need to.

 

[quadraginta]

What makes you think it's unwise?

What do you think might happen to me as I'm getting out of my car?

I am extremely curious. I want to know why you think it's unwise for me. I already know why it's unwise for you.

Not speaking for him, but aside from the danger of maniacal, panicked, trigger happy cops, it is advisable to stay in your car as much as is reasonably possible when pulled over on the shoulder. The driver's side is especially problematic.

Just to keep from getting hit by other motorists.

IN NC they passed a law a while back making it compulsory to move over to a farther lane away (where one exists) as soon as practicable whenever you see any sort of emergency vehicle (including cops) on the shoulder of the road.

You can get ticketed for failing to do so.

Cops, emergency personnel, and yes, drivers, were getting whacked too often by unobservant (or sometimes too eagerly observant) passing traffic.

 

[Dr.Sid]

You've been dying to say it for two pages now...please make your all important, thread-winning gotcha...

ETA:
All the videos I saw up until today - the one with the girlfriend in the car right after the shooting - were backwards. I thought that she was the driver because in the videos she appears to be on the driver's side.

Now today, after hearing about how the guy was pulled over, I rechecked the videos. Some are reversed.

This one is reversed as they show it on a TV news broadcast.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxyQtvv_1i8

All this time I thought the cop shot him from the passenger side and that Castillo was the passenger. Am I the only one?

Might be because front facing cameras reverse the image, so it acts like mirror, it's easier for people to frame the shots. If she used front facing camera to capture the video, it would be flipped. Some news agencies realized it, and 'deflipped' it.

 

[Mumbles]

As far as I can see, and things are probably grossly distorted in the reporting, if one is black in America, there are a lot of things one has to do that seem, quite honestly, *********** unreasonable, in order to not get shot.


I still want to know how alfaniner thinks I'm going to be in trouble getting out of my car when stopped by police.

Well, again, it's less about being shot - although that's a possibility, obviously. The more likely scenario, and one which every black guy I grew up around had happen, was having a cop just suddenly walk up already belligerent and ready to beat someone and drag them off to jail at a moment's notice - and yet will refuse to show up when they're called on for an actual emergency. Sean Hannity is safe, if only because he's a famous and a shameless bootlicker.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

If they are so fearful and frightened about a black man having a gun.

Where are you drawing your conclusion that the officer's fear was tied to Castile's race from? The power of pure, baseless assumption?

You don't think this officer might've behaved exactly the same way if a white man, or a fellow Amerindian, had told him he had a gun and then started reaching around his pocket and ignoring commands not to?

Where was the NRA? Why are they totally silent about a law abiding gun owner shot dead seemingly doing everything right?

The NRA has a lot of police officers as members and all NRA and CCW type culture / classes / seminars / speakers / books tend to be heavy on protocol and emphasizing the right way to behave in an encounter with police while legally armed. I'm not in the NRA and I don't have a CCW, but I have watched some of their material and one of their big names is Massad Ayoob.

Ayoob is a former police officer himself and he has a lot of videos out there, instructional and seminar, where he talks about this stuff. These people are BIG on things like "calmly tell the officer you have a legal firearm and a CCW, keep your hands in plain sight, and ask the officer what he'd like you to do next." etc.

The logical reason why they didn't rush to Castile's defense is that they had police telling them that he did not conduct himself in anything remotely like the ways their entire culture repeatedly emphasizes that you need to. Why would they go to bat for someone who, to a great extent, personifies what NOT to do according to all their pre-existing materials?

Or it could just be that they're all racists!

(I actually agree they're all racists, because this planet is home to about 8 billion racists. I also agree that the 2nd amendment is actually for white people, because this entire country was constructed for white people and ALL legal frameworks were made with them in mind. But that's beside the point.)

The thing that struck me on watching the video is how the mere mention that the driver had a gun threw the cop into a complete panic.

I find it interesting that you'd be struck by something that didn't happen.

Watch the video again. When Castile first says "I have to tell you I have a firearm" the officer's initial reaction is quite calm. He says "okay, well don't reach for it then" and he says this quite calmly. It's 100% clear that he did NOT go into a panic, let alone a complete panic, at the mere mention of the gun. It was what Castile did with his hands, and his heedlessness of repeated commands from the officer, which sent the officer into a panic.