CCW holder killed reaching for ID.

marplots said:
It's just not right. Ever since Trayvon Martin was shot by George Zimmerman, the whole Hispanic vs. Black thing has continued downhill. Now we have Officer Yanez shooting Philando Castile in questionable circumstances.

They should have been great allies instead of enemies.
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Dafuq?
 
Ranb said:
Remember that the victim was a person not a community.

Ranb
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Am I really the one who needs to be reminded of that? Essentially every black person who discusses this or other cases frames it as an attack against them at the community / racial level. They insist that it is more than a case of an individual having a bad fate befall him, it is indicative of society's relationship with / view toward them as a whole. As a community.

If we really lived in a society that thinks about individuals as individuals, you'd be just as likely to see a nonblack person brought onto the news to comment about how awful this event was as you are likely to see a black person brought on to provide that perspective.

I'm merely trying to offer an explanation of why a police officer might be a little bit more wary / on guard about a black man with a gun than he would be a white man. It's because of the behavior pattern of the community he's part of. It's an awareness of stats we can't expect, and wouldn't want, police to lack.

It's the same reason an 85 year old black grandma is probably not going to put the cop on edge quite as much as a 19 year old white male who smells like weed and has facial tattoos will.

Can't expect cops to not notice who the person they're interacting with is.

marplots said:
It's just not right. Ever since Trayvon Martin was shot by George Zimmerman, the whole Hispanic vs. Black thing has continued downhill. Now we have Officer Yanez shooting Philando Castile in questionable circumstances.

They should have been great allies instead of enemies.
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Allies in what? Wresting control of this society away from whites?
 
The only fundamental question of this case, and the question that determines whether the officer should've been charged / convicted is this:

Did Castille behave stupidly and move in ways that could reasonably lead the officer to think he was going for the weapon after announcing he had it?

Not a one of us here knows the answer. None of the jury knew it either. Diamond the girlfriend (and hammer wielding assaultress) may not even have known.

So how can any reasonable person wish he was in prison for a vast portion of his life over this without knowing that? The jury erred on the side of giving an officer the benefit of the doubt, as is appropriate.
 
The obvious thing to do is not carry round guns. But that isn't going to happen over there.

Why not just have rules where cops can't shoot people to death till they actually see a gun or other lethal weapon

Also. You can't shoot people to death who are sitting prone in a street. Happen to not get your orders. Are obviously mentally impaired but passive. Obviously blind and don't understand what's going on. Little kids with plastic water pistols.

Stuff like that
 
cullennz said:
The obvious thing to do is not carry round guns. But that isn't going to happen over there.

Why not just have rules where cops can't shoot people to death till they actually see a gun or other lethal weapon

Also. You can't shoot people to death who are sitting prone in a street. Happen to not get your orders. Are obviously mentally impaired but passive. Obviously blind and don't understand what's going on. Little kids with plastic water pistols.

Stuff like that
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In theory, we already have these rules.

In practice, the Supreme Court has ruled that police can use lethal force in any situation where a "reasonable" person would feel threatened, and many jurors foolishly insist that police can do no wrong. In addition, many police take "warrior cop" training, and departments across the country have been given military equipment, supposedly for drastic emergencies. Even if we put aside outright violent robber governments like that of Ferguson, it's still a recipe for disaster. People like Radley Balko and Michael Wood Jr. have spoken and written about the effects of all of this extensively.
 
bignickel said:
And keep in mind: policeman isn't in the top 10 most dangerous jobs in this country.

If a logger (not the guy on this forum) is told ""Sir, I have to tell you, I do have a firearm on me," he can't draw a weapon and fire.

If a construction worker is told ""Sir, I have to tell you, I do have a firearm on me," he can't draw a weapon and fire.

And If a taxi driver is told ""Sir, I have to tell you, I do have a firearm on me," he can't draw a weapon and fire.

But the guy with the safer job can... because. Danger.
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Black people should know better than to think they can get away with simply obeying the gun laws that are for white people. Hell the physical evidence in the case contradicted the defenses story and it still doesn't matter.

And of course the pro gun groups will ignore this because they are really only about white people owning guns. THis should be a major case for the NRA but they don't care about some black guy thinking he can own a gun like proper white folk.
 
ponderingturtle said:
Black people should know better than to think they can get away with simply obeying the gun laws that are for white people. Hell the physical evidence in the case contradicted the defenses story and it still doesn't matter.

And of course the pro gun groups will ignore this because they are really only about white people owning guns. THis should be a major case for the NRA but they don't care about some black guy thinking he can own a gun like proper white folk.
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You seem really certain that Castile didn't behave incredibly stupidly and either reach for the gun or make reaching motions which the officer could reasonably interpret that way in the moments leading up to his death.

I'm curious, from whence do you draw this certainty?
 
Just watched the full dashcam footage. Thoughts:

- Officer Janez is very polite and professional from the moment this starts until even AFTER he's told Castile has firearm

- Looks like the vehicle had exactly the burned out tail bulb he says to Castile that it has, to my eye. Left rear lights are not all as functional as the right side. This is relevant because NPR did a huge thing about how Castile had 46 pull overs in his years as a driver and they implied this was evidence of racial profiling and inappropriate behavior by cops. This video indicates strongly toward the other possibility: Castile was a bad driver and not conscientious at all about keeping his vehicle in good working order. I recently had a few lights on my car go out over a couple months and each time I wasted no time correcting it.

- Janez was not going to "execute Castile juss fo bein' black" and Castile could have easily survived this even after declaring he had the firearm. He was shot, without doubt, because of what he was doing with his hands in the moments immediately after telling that to Janez. So, the only question now is "what was he doing with his hands down at one side, and why?"

Was he attempting to get his concealed carry permit and/or license to show the officer?
Was he actually going for the gun?

I consider option two very unlikely, but not 100% impossible. I would wager very strongly that he was getting his ID. That makes this tragic of course, but after you tell a cop "I have a firearm" you keep your hands still, visible, and you wait for instructions. You don't immediately go to reach for anything in your pants. If you do, this is a foreseeable outcome.

So Janez being convicted here would have been absolutely absurd, but expect that after a decade or two more on current trends, a cop in a situation like this WILL be convicted or only able to get hung juries at best. Racial appeasement / tribalized jury system / mob rule / trial by media are all growing trends.

So why did Castile make the incredibly dumb and fatal decision to reach around his pants and apparently not even stop doing so as the officer said "don't reach for it!" twice? Probably because he was high and his judgement / awareness / comprehension / reaction time were all compromised.

I hope that weed was worth ruining this officer's career, life and ability to ever have mental peace again and I hope that weed was worth causing massive loss and anguish to his family and trauma to the child in the back seat.

ETA:

I went and found the YouTube version of it which had the most views and actually still allowed comments. Browsed through. Most are agreeing with my take here, but there was an interesting dispute between people saying Castile says "I'mma have to pull it out" at 1:12 in the video after the Officer says "don't pull it out" and others saying Castile actually says "I'm not gonna pull it out"

This reminds me of the "these ****** ___s" thing on the Zimmerman call. People heard what they wanted to hear to bolster the narrative they emotionally connected with, at least in the case of those who thought it was a racial slur (it wasn't) but in this case, after listening several times, I believe he does say "I'm not gonna pull it out" - though the first time I heard it, it did sound somewhat like "I'mma have to pull it out."

So see? I ended up landing on the interpretation which DOES NOT fit my "narrative" (I actually don't have a narrative, I have a steely eyed, no-nonsense realistic appraisal of the situation.)
 
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mgidm86 said:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/06/2...ting-police-car-dashcam-footage-released.html

Dash cam footage released.
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And the video shows exactly what we already knew - Castile was told to hand over his license, made a good faith effort to inform the cop of what was happening, and was rewarded with multiple shots from a panicked police officer.

The cop should be under the jail right about now - but at least he seems to be leaving the profession entirely. That's below the bare minimum of what justice looks like, but it's better than we usually see for cops that murder black people.
 
Mumbles said:
And the video shows exactly what we already knew - Castile was told to hand over his license, made a good faith effort to inform the cop of what was happening, and was rewarded with multiple shots from a panicked police officer.
The cop should be under the jail right about now - but at least he seems to be leaving the profession entirely. That's below the bare minimum of what justice looks like, but it's better than we usually see for cops that murder black people.
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Let's go through the portion of the video where they interact... I've got it queued up now, and I'll transcribe it.

Janez: "Hello sir"
Castile: "What's going on?"
Janez: "How're you? Good. Reason I pulled you over is your brake lights are out. So you only have one activated, active brake light and that's gonna be your passenger side one. Your third brake light, which is up here on top, and then this one back here - is gonna be out. You have your license and insurance?"
***Castile can be seen reaching into glove compartment and pulling out the insurance and/or registration info and handing it to Janez who then begins reading it***
Castile: "Sir, I have to tell you I do have a firearm on me."
Janez: "Okay, okay." (said calmly and matter of factly)
Janez: "Don't reach for it then." (Fairly calm)
Janez: "Don't pull it out!" (Less calm but still not super loud yet - just insistent command voice at this point)
Castile: "I'm not pulling it out" (Sounds somewhat irritated, or just seeking to impress upon the officer with clarity that he isn't pulling it out. Spoken with emphasis on "not")
Janez: "Don't pull it out!" (much louder and more insistent)
***as he says it this time he draws his firearm with his right hand and reaches his left hand into the car, trying to stop Castile's hand from getting what it's reaching for***
***Something causes Janez to draw back and give up on trying to physically prevent Castile from getting what he's reaching for, and draw his firearm and shoot Castile several times***
***At this point, you can hear Castile cry out in what are very sad and difficult to listen to expressions of pain as he says "I wasn't reaching for it!" once or twice and as his girlfriend echoes that***


So now, let's make some obvious observations that no one should be disputing if they watched this with a reasonable, fair mind:

  1. Janez was polite and professional from the beginning
  2. It appears there really was an issue with the car's brake lights
  3. Castile gets a lot of credit for being cooperative and promptly getting his insurance from the glove compartment and handing it to the officer
  4. Castile gets a lot of credit for informing the officer of his firearm
  5. Castile gets credit for emphasizing that he is NOT pulling out the gun
  6. Janez gets credit for repeatedly, in a fast moving and brief situation, instructing Castile to stop what he's doing. After the fact, people can nitpick his wordchoice but when you see how fast this goes, that's a stupid thing to do. Janez also gets credit for trying to physically reach in and prevent Castile from reaching with his hand. Between him doing this, his tone, the seriousness of the situation (you've just told a cop you have a firearm and he's telling you to stop reaching for it - even if it's not what you're reaching for) there is simply no excuse for Castile not halting all motion and though things went fast, he ABSOLUTELY had time to halt his motions. Janez gets credit for providing him time to do that.
  7. What person would ever, ever keep reaching for anything, regardless of what it is, as an increasingly aggravated police officer with a gun tells them to stop and then even physically tries to stop them with his hand? What in the world would make a person continue? Being high? Being stupid? Being both? Being prideful and wanting to have a little moment where you get to pull out the wallet and say "see officer? it was just my wallet!" ??? It's hard to explain, but I'm wagering intoxication played a role in bad judgement here.
  8. How can anyone call this murder or say the officer should "be under the jail" ? He behaved properly. The fault here is on Castile.
 
Well the important thing we don't know .. was he reaching for anything ? And even if he was, and said 'I'm not reaching for a gun' .. is that enough reason to be killed on spot ?
 
Dr.Sid said:
Well the important thing we don't know .. was he reaching for anything ?
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We know he was reaching for something. Here's how:

1.) First of all, the only way he wasn't is if we believe Officer Nicey McPleasantpants goes from "Yeah hi, how are you doing? Okay yeah, you've go ta tail light out" to full 1000% Psycho murderer mode where he's prepared to pretend an innocent man who has his hands clearly in view, up on the steering wheel, is reaching for something when he isn't, just so he can murder this person, and then goes back to being clearly very emotionally impacted by what he did immediately after.

2.) Diamond Reynolds, the girlfriend, acknowledges Castile was reaching for something in how she talks about the incident on both this video and the live stream video. She disputes that it was the gun he was reaching for, but not that he was reaching for something.

Dr.Sid said:
And even if he was, and said 'I'm not reaching for a gun' .. is that enough reason to be killed on spot ?
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Wrong way to think about it.

The question is:

"if you've just told an officer you have a firearm and then you start to reach for something in your pants, even if it's your wallet and not the firearm, and the officer starts yelling at you to not reach for the firearm, even if that's not what you're doing, and he reaches into the car to try to stop your hand going where it's going, and you do anything other than completely halt all motion of your hands immediately when that first command is given, and certainly upon the subsequent ones... is getting shot multiple times by that officer a super foreseeable result?"

And the answer is obviously yes. And you can also expect that he won't get convicted for it, either. In fact, he won't even get charged unless the media and "community" can make a racial story about it.

This was a non-story and certainly not a racial incident.

Had Castile been Erik Svenson of Minneapolis and done exactly these same actions, he'd have been shot in exactly the same way. And there would likely never, ever have been charges brought or a trial over it.
 
Skeptic Tank said:
So now, let's make some obvious observations that no one should be disputing if they watched this with a reasonable, fair mind:....
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The "obvious observations" you're making are those of an eye witness or at the very least, a person who was in the court room to hear the testimony. Also I'm not about to be completely convinced of "the obvious observations" of a person who takes the other view; that the police officer is a murderer.
 
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