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I have expressed doubt about exactly one thing that Comey did - his purposeful shift to unclassified memos, with the expectation of releasing them publicly. I have had no complaints about any of his testimony, and have been perfectly willing to accept it as given. Similarly with Brennan. I fail to see how I'm not extending Comey the benefit of the doubt by accepting his testimony as accurate. Please expand on what you mean here.

"With the expectation of releasing them publicly." Can you point me to where Comey stated that this was an expectation of his? Because I haven't seen it, which makes this appear to be an example of an extremely uncharitable reading of his actions. This uncharitable reading, of course, is never applied to Trump, for some reason, but only to those critical of him.
 
"With the expectation of releasing them publicly." Can you point me to where Comey stated that this was an expectation of his? Because I haven't seen it, which makes this appear to be an example of an extremely uncharitable reading of his actions.
It's completely unjustifiable in a universe where Comey did not know at the time that he would have reason to release them. Of course he was well aware at the time that it would be good to have them available if they should be needed, and that they might well be. You'd have to have been brought up in a cave not to know that about Trump.

This uncharitable reading, of course, is never applied to Trump, for some reason, but only to those critical of him.
No way would Trump prepare something with an expectation of release should some situation arise. It's just type and Send : you know where you are with Trump.
 
"With the expectation of releasing them publicly." Can you point me to where Comey stated that this was an expectation of his? Because I haven't seen it, which makes this appear to be an example of an extremely uncharitable reading of his actions. This uncharitable reading, of course, is never applied to Trump, for some reason, but only to those critical of him.

It seems to have been his expectation, although this is my interpretation. It is also an interpretation that many in this thread share with me, so I don't believe I'm out in left field on this. Here are two spots where I've quoted the transcript. Have you read the transcript, by the way?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11875062#post11875062

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11880758#post11880758
 
"With the expectation of releasing them publicly." Can you point me to where Comey stated that this was an expectation of his? Because I haven't seen it, which makes this appear to be an example of an extremely uncharitable reading of his actions. This uncharitable reading, of course, is never applied to Trump, for some reason, but only to those critical of him.

The uncharitable reading is what is never applied to Trump, that his actions are never (by some people) given the worst possible interpretation. Yet Comey's motivations are presumed to be the basest corruption.
 
It seems to have been his expectation, although this is my interpretation. It is also an interpretation that many in this thread share with me, so I don't believe I'm out in left field on this. Here are two spots where I've quoted the transcript. Have you read the transcript, by the way?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11875062#post11875062

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11880758#post11880758
Well, that's odd. When Trump makes a claim or excuse for his actions, no matter how preposterous (so angry that blood was coming from her whatever eyes?!?) you take it at face value, but when Comey claims he wrote the memos as unclassified to share with the relevant investigatory committee, you ignore it and claim he did it with the expectation to share with the public.
 
Well, that's odd. When Trump makes a claim or excuse for his actions, no matter how preposterous (so angry that blood was coming from her whatever eyes?!?) you take it at face value, but when Comey claims he wrote the memos as unclassified to share with the relevant investigatory committee, you ignore it and claim he did it with the expectation to share with the public.

YEah, totally odd. It's really weird that I repeatedly accept that Trumps claims could be complete ********, but also say that there are other interpretations. It's even weirder that I would consider suggesting that one thing Comey did seemed questionable to me, and that he seemed to have had some intent. Yep, that's really dastardly of me to dare to consider a heretofore not considered alternative interpretation of either of those events.

As for "so angry that blood was coming from her... " Who the hell fills in "vagina" as their very first thought? That's not even a thing! I mean, seriously, who comes up with that as their fill-in-the-blank? Trump: "You could see there was blood coming out of her eyes. Blood coming out of her — wherever."

Yeah, I can totally tell that "vagina" is the logical thing to go there, I mean, we can all *see* bloody vaginas. :rolleyes: I mean, she's a woman, right, so that's totally the only thing that could go there!
 
YEah, totally odd. It's really weird that I repeatedly accept that Trumps claims could be complete ********, but also say that there are other interpretations. It's even weirder that I would consider suggesting that one thing Comey did seemed questionable to me, and that he seemed to have had some intent. Yep, that's really dastardly of me to dare to consider a heretofore not considered alternative interpretation of either of those events.

As for "so angry that blood was coming from her... " Who the hell fills in "vagina" as their very first thought? That's not even a thing! I mean, seriously, who comes up with that as their fill-in-the-blank? Trump: "You could see there was blood coming out of her eyes. Blood coming out of her — wherever."

Yeah, I can totally tell that "vagina" is the logical thing to go there, I mean, we can all *see* bloody vaginas. :rolleyes: I mean, she's a woman, right, so that's totally the only thing that could go there!

Thank you. Yes, you have labored mightily to find some interpretation, any interpretation, that makes Trump look better, but when it comes to someone critical of Trump, like Comey, suddenly the effort is directed towards finding an interpretation that makes Comey look bad. It is nice when we can see our biases like this. This way, we may be able to get past them and admit that maybe, just maybe, Trump isn't the good guy, and his transparently self serving after the fact justifications don't hold water.
 
I have seen Comey's action in 2 different jobs I had. A senior VP knew bad times were coming for him and he documented every single meeting he went to. After the meetings. he would immediately write down what was said and by whom, to the best of his remembrance. Certainly not because he'd release it to the media but for his own protection.

Another was the CEO who had a glimmer of an idea a takeover was in the works. He wasn't stupid so he also documented all meetings right away. He was forced out but his memos got him an extremely generous severance package.

Executives, powerful political appointees, even a mid level manager, knows they have to stay on top of what's going on. Comey obviously knew the **** was running in his direction and was smart enough to cover his ass. Good for him, I say!
 
I have expressed doubt about exactly one thing that Comey did - his purposeful shift to unclassified memos, with the expectation of releasing them publicly recognizing the possibility that they might be released publicly. I have had no complaints about any of his testimony, and have been perfectly willing to accept it as given. Similarly with Brennan. I fail to see how I'm not extending Comey the benefit of the doubt by accepting his testimony as accurate. Please expand on what you mean here.


FTFY.

Again.

Can't help yourself, can you?

Since this simple distinction has been explained to you on repeated occasions I am forced to conclude that your deceit is intentional.

Quit repeating such willful and baseless distortions, and your other claims of a lack of bias might seem less absurd.

Maybe not much, but at least a little.
 
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I think this is the sort of thing cat is talking about. What was Comey's "proof"?


Comey's contemporaneous memos are proof. The might not be absolute proof. They might not be proof you accept. But they fit a far higher standard of veracity and authority than anything which so far has been offered to contradict them.



And note, Trump cast slurs against Comey, is it so hard to believe that Comey might have some issues with trump and being casting their conversations in light of that?


It is hard to believe that Comey cast his memos in that light because of Trump's slurs against him when he wrote them before Trump's slurs against him.

Yes.
 
Okay, I will withdraw my complaint then. I haven't been "in favor of" a viewpoint, so much as I've been "against a speculation-fueled" viewpoint.

I'll reiterate that there's a bit of hmm... selection bias? Find me a ravenously anti-Democrat thread that is chock-full of bad logic and speculations-accepted-as-fact, and I promise I'll give you the same arguments I give here. All the threads right now are anti-Trump. Most of them are vehemently so. Many of the posters have pre-existing beliefs based on allegation and speculation, and are perfectly willing to interpret obvious spin as proof of whatever it is they've already decided to believe. Several posters have pretty much stated that nothing at all will change their minds about Trump having colluded with Russia. Several have expressed that any denial of collusion is "proof" of collusion having occurred.

It's become pretty clear that any argument against bad logic will be viewed as "Pro-Trump". The only thing that can prevent someone as being labeled "Pro-Trump" is if they vacuously accept the narrative that has been pushed, and go ahead and just parrot the unreasonable and unreasoned assertions put forth. Daring to question this dogma means that one is "Pro-Trump".
There's playing Devil's Advocate, and there's letting the Devil crash on your couch for six months while he gets his life together.

Much of what you're calling "bad logic," really isn't.
 
So again, nothing is gong to change your mind? If the special investigator concludes that Trump didn't directly conclude, you'll let it drop... but it appears that you would still believe he was guilty, and just managed to get away with it. Is that an accurate interpretation of your post?

No, it isn't an accurate interpretation. It's you trying to twist it to look like you want it to because you seem to dislike any anti-trump sentiment.

The first highlighted 'nothing' was my statement that nothing would stop me from being suspicious of him. It was clear and i know you know that doesn't support your "you're-not-a-skeptic-gotcha", but you tried to weave it in anyway.

In the hypothetical that Mueller clears Trumps of collusion, I won't "let it drop", I will "happily accept his conclusions", as i stated. I'd prefer you didn't put your own slant on my words to suit your needs.

The second was a 'probably nothing', specifically to the obstruction charge and not to the collusion charge as your interpretation dishonestly represents, wherein I leave space for something i haven't anticipated or am not yet aware of. That said, I'm not sure what other information can come to light with regard to this charge and I would guess that the investigating authority will probably issue a statement to the effect of "there is not enough evidence to support legal action", just like they did with the Hillary email story.
 
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Oh, you've got a very good point. I mean, look at these completely tangible and incontrovertible cases where Trump is known to be wrong. They're material things right? I mean, the size of his crowd is a really big deal, and has bearing on... what exactly? And you know, insisting that Clinton got a bunch of illegal votes... that's so much worse than insisting that Trump only won because of bigots, and stupid people, and misogyny, and the reasons that Clinton tossed out... right? These two things that keep coming back around as such absolutely solid evidence of Trumps lack of credibility... they're very meaningful... aren't they?

Ahh, yes, of course. You've got a sparkling point. I mean, it's not like he made these claims at vastly different times or anything, right? They're occurring in the same time span, aren't they? I mean, it's not like a hyperbolic bombast could possibly consider exaggerating a brief encounter with someone important when that reflected glory makes them seem more important, right? It's clear, of course, that there's no reason to think critically at all about the veracity of what he said on an interview where he was trying to make himself seem important. It makes perfect sense to accept that statement as the one that's totally and completely true, and use it as justification for alleging collusion! It's perfectly reasonable and objective, no cherry picking at all here, but my this fresh pie sure is yummy.

And yet, they aren't dismissed as evidence of nothing. They aren't ignored. They're not treated as being impossible to determine. If his statements disagree with the current narrative, then they are presented as yet more evidence that Trump is a liar without credibility and he's untrustworthy. But on those occasions where his statements strengthen the current narrative, then those statements aren't questioned at all - they're accepted as being perfectly 100% true... and are often spun as being an admission.

That's the nice thing about this game. You get to pick and choose which statements work best for you. If they disagree with the narrative you're pushing, you just get to say that they're false statements, lies, dishonesty from a known liar. If they agree with your narrative, you get to say that they're evidence, admission, and just go to show how bad a person he is. If his empty rhetoric (and make no mistake, it's almost all empty) contradicts what you want reality to be, then you can investigate and keep on investigating, and if nothing comes up you can claim there's a cover-up or that someone is a shill or whatever you need to say in order to justify continuing to dig and dig and dig. And if his empty rhetoric supports what you want reality to be, you don't have to bother with fact checking anything - he said it, so by god, it must be true!

This is just a massive jumping of the shark.
 
Comey's contemporaneous memos are proof. The might not be absolute proof. They might not be proof you accept. But they fit a far higher standard of veracity and authority than anything which so far has been offered to contradict them.






It is hard to believe that Comey cast his memos in that light because of Trump's slurs against him when he wrote them before Trump's slurs against him.

Yes.
So, no proof at all then? They could also be memos written by a guy who wanted to cover his ass. Sure, I think Comey and his memo's are more reliable than Trump but that ain't proof. And saying it is reveals as much or more bias than anything the Cat has written. Don't get over your ski's that just gives Trump cover.
 
So, no proof at all then? They could also be memos written by a guy who wanted to cover his ass. Sure, I think Comey and his memo's are more reliable than Trump but that ain't proof. And saying it is reveals as much or more bias than anything the Cat has written. Don't get over your ski's that just gives Trump cover.
When a police officer pulls you over for speeding, and you go to court to fight the charge, the officer's testimony that you were speeding counts as proof enough for the court.

Why does that not work here?
 
So, no proof at all then? They could also be memos written by a guy who wanted to cover his ass. Sure, I think Comey and his memo's are more reliable than Trump but that ain't proof. And saying it is reveals as much or more bias than anything the Cat has written. Don't get over your ski's that just gives Trump cover.

No, it's not "proof" Tapes wouldn't even be "proof", because maybe they are fake ??

It is, however, evidence. Strong evidence.

And Trumps history of lying is evidence. Strong evidence.
 
Even in the case of the cop, it may be proof enough for a speeding ticket but it is still his word against your's.

Yes, evidence, not proof. Overplaying your hand just feeds the suspension of disbelief of the Trump supporters. Simply saying, its Trump's word against Comey's and I believe Comey, doesn't. This is similar to the Trump sexual assault thing. Trump said he could get away with grabbing women in the pussy, that was played as Trump said he had grabbed women by the pussy. Easily lets his aficionados, yell liar and ignore that Trump's behavior is actually quite disturbing even if it is debatable as to whether it was illegal or worthy of impeachment.

If you want to make an impact. Remind folks how upset they were when Clinton met with Lynch and how Trump's meeting with Comey was a lot like that but we know for a fact they actually talked about investigations that may implicate Trump or at least his close associates.
 
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Oh, you've got a very good point. I mean, look at these completely tangible and incontrovertible cases where Trump is known to be wrong. They're material things right? I mean, the size of his crowd is a really big deal, and has bearing on... what exactly? And you know, insisting that Clinton got a bunch of illegal votes... that's so much worse than insisting that Trump only won because of bigots, and stupid people, and misogyny, and the reasons that Clinton tossed out... right? These two things that keep coming back around as such absolutely solid evidence of Trumps lack of credibility... they're very meaningful... aren't they?

I think so.

The crowd size, not quite as much, but the claim of illegal votes? That's a very big deal indeed. Really. It shows a combination of delusion and self-aggrandizement that is dangerous.

The reason that the votes thing is more important than the crowd size is that the crowd size is unimportant, but the votes claims are very, very, important, and he has demonstrated he is incapable of accepting reality on a very important subject. He will make stuff up to stroke his ego, even on subjects that really matter.

That's bad.
 
I think so.

The crowd size, not quite as much, but the claim of illegal votes? That's a very big deal indeed. Really. It shows a combination of delusion and self-aggrandizement that is dangerous.

The reason that the votes thing is more important than the crowd size is that the crowd size is unimportant, but the votes claims are very, very, important, and he has demonstrated he is incapable of accepting reality on a very important subject. He will make stuff up to stroke his ego, even on subjects that really matter.

That's bad.
He's also undermining faith in the system that got him where he his. Delusion, self-aggrandizement, and self sabotaging, yet he refuses to accept that Russian interference in the election is a serious problem. Tilting at windmills when there's a real giant in plain view. Very odd and disturbing behavior in a leader for sure.
 
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