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The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 25

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The Supreme Court disagrees with you. This case was fundamentally about the forensics and certainly not about the circumstantial evidence. M/B's acquittal is largely based on the lack of forensic evidence.

You mean B/M's joke.
An yet it you read that verdict alone, you would also come to the conclusion that it is a proven fact that Knox was on the scene of crime when Meredith was killed, and that it was proven that Meredith was killed by multiple persons.
Because this is what B/M says.
If B/M state they are certain, the would have to assume there is sufficient circumstantial evidence.

But B/M is not a court of merits. And actuall, it was not a real verdict - it is a political one, with random things copied in it.
The courts of merits - like Massei - said that the evidence was a "picture without holes" and recognized the case as "based ao circumstantial evidence".
 
You mean B/M's joke.
An yet it you read that verdict alone, you would also come to the conclusion that it is a proven fact that Knox was on the scene of crime when Meredith was killed, and that it was proven that Meredith was killed by multiple persons.
Because this is what B/M says.
If B/M state they are certain, the would have to assume there is sufficient circumstantial evidence.

But B/M is not a court of merits. And actuall, it was not a real verdict - it is a political one, with random things copied in it.
The courts of merits - like Massei - said that the evidence was a "picture without holes" and recognized the case as "based ao circumstantial evidence".

"Reexamination.. of the factual circumstances... has revealed — in the opinion of this Court — the substantive nonexistence not to mention ambiguity, of this evidence.
..
But the only circumstantial evidence which remains solid...does not, even taken together, allow us to arrive at the conclusion that the culpability of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito of the crime of murder has been proven in any way.
...
'the law, if it tolerates the acquittal of the guilty, does not tolerate the conviction of the innocent.'"


-Hellmann-Zanetti Sentencing Report
 
Let's not forget that the multiple killers "fact", Knox being at the scene of the crime when Meredith was killed, and that she heard Meredith scream were all judicial facts previously finalized by a Supreme Court.

No it is false. You seem to not understand the law - therefore you rationalize impossible things. B/M explicitly says the contrary of your claim: B/M points out that previous findings in Guede's trial are themselves non-binding, so there was no need to come to the same conclusion on this trial, BUT - this is what B/M say - B/M agree with Nencini's finding on this point, and say that a fact is that in Knox and Sollecito's trial, a further confirmation of those fact was found.
Do you understant?
It's not established judicial facts: its that a further confirmation of those facts was proven in Knox & Sollecito trial, and B/M agrees with it.

M/C had to deal with them. I have never been shown, despite having asked multiple times since 2015, an example of a SC openly disagreeing with another SC's findings in the same case. They had no choice but to incorporate them.

This is a ridiculous statement. The B/M are not incorporating any SC previous verdict: while they are instead openly disagreeing with the points of law actually stated by Chieffi in the most awkward way.

As for the "eloquent proof" that Knox had contact with Meredith's blood and washed her hands of it, neither the courts nor any other person, including you and Vixen, have ever provided any forensic proof that this ever happened. Despite being asked for the actual evidence of this on multiple occasions, this proof has never been presented. Exactly what was the "eloquent proof"?

Again, it is ridiculous that you respond to these statements by turning B/M statements into questions to me. I am not going to respond en lieu of B/M, I am not going to speculate on what prompted them to write this or that, that was not the topic (and btw, I don't believe anything B/M wrote was done on a honest research).
The only point is it is that B/M did establish these things, this is certainly an undisputable fact. This is what is actually written in the verdict, not what you spin about it.
 
You mean B/M's joke.
An yet it you read that verdict alone, you would also come to the conclusion that it is a proven fact that Knox was on the scene of crime when Meredith was killed, and that it was proven that Meredith was killed by multiple persons.
Because this is what B/M says.
If B/M state they are certain, the would have to assume there is sufficient circumstantial evidence.

But B/M is not a court of merits. And actuall, it was not a real verdict - it is a political one, with random things copied in it.
The courts of merits - like Massei - said that the evidence was a "picture without holes" and recognized the case as "based ao circumstantial evidence".

LOL...a joke, heh? Only because you don't like the conclusion they came to.

As I said, which you have totally skipped past, is that fact that they had to deal with the previous findings of Supreme Courts on those particular issues. No, they don't have to assume anything. They have to deal with the existence of these judicial facts.

I don't care what Massei said. Massei was overturned for very good reasons. I care what the Supreme Court said. And they relied heavily on the forensics of the case as I quoted above.
 
(...)
-Hellmann-Zanetti Sentencing Report

Hellmann-Zanetti also says that the bathmat print is not Sollecito's because it has a toe attached to the metatarsus, and because the murderer must have stepped on pool of blood a flat surface in order to produce it (a pool of blood on a flat surface with a step in it doesn't exist on that murder scene).
Also says that Sollecito, Knox could not hang out together with Guede (despite the testimonies, despite they attended the same bars and the same friends and exactly the same places) because Knox & Sollecito are "goodfellows" while Guede is "different".
The same Helmmann-Zanetti also said that a malicious planting of false evidence against an innocent on a murder case is not logically connected to the murder.
 
Hellmann-Zanetti also says that the bathmat print is not Sollecito's because it has a toe attached to the metatarsus, and because the murderer must have stepped on pool of blood a flat surface in order to produce it (a pool of blood on a flat surface with a step in it doesn't exist on that murder scene).

Nitpicking minor trivia. Also a consequence of the overly indulgent Italian motivations system that feels compelled to reconstruct stochastic chaotic events atom-for-atom. It's a messy indecipherable print on a fuzzy bathmat that could have been made by anybody.

Also says that Sollecito, Knox could not hang out together with Guede (despite the testimonies, despite they attended the same bars and the same friends and exactly the same places) because Knox & Sollecito are "goodfellows" while Guede is "different".

So in other words, he's perceptive. Good for him.

The same Helmmann-Zanetti also said that a malicious planting of false evidence against an innocent on a murder case is not logically connected to the murder.

Nobody's perfect. This was a mistake in his verdict and reasoning.

Overall he painted a consistent coherent picture of a burglary gone bad homicide whose flaky investigation ensnared two innocent students through unfortunate ambiguous circumstances that were found guilty despite the evidence being, to use his words "non existent."

The students were freed, the State Department monitoring the case considered the matter closed, and everybody got on with their life.

Then Chieffi said, ah, but Quintavalle was struck by Amanda's blue eyes in courts. And thus...M&B. But it's academic. The case ended in 2011. I'm sorry.
 
LOL...a joke, heh? Only because you don't like the conclusion they came to.

No it's a joke just because it is inconsistent and nonsense, besides violating the code such as in contradicting Chieffi's points of law, as I happened to show several times. And bear in mind that B/M don't have the evidence. They can't see it.

As I said, which you have totally skipped past, is that fact that they had to deal with the previous findings of Supreme Courts on those particular issues. No, they don't have to assume anything. They have to deal with the existence of these judicial facts.

No. I told you this is false. You are repeating a false things. This is your invented rationalization. B/M themselves write the contrary: they say that the judge does not need to agree with findings from Guede's trial, but they say that they happen to agree.

I don't care what Massei said. Massei was overturned for very good reasons.

No it wasn't. It was actually a verdict that was never overturned on the merits. Because Hellmann was annulled. And Nencini did not overturn Massei.
There was never a legitimate court of merits who ever looked at the evidence and overturned Massei. It didn't happen.
No legitimate court of merits ever acquitted Knox & Sollecito. They were never acquitted based on the evidence.
And the courts noted that it was a case based on circumstantial evidence. Actually, also Chieffi (SC) which is a definitive SC verdict, recognized the case as based on circumstantial evidence.

I care what the Supreme Court said. And they relied heavily on the forensics of the case as I quoted above.

The definitive Supreme Court verdicts include Chieffi.
Because Chieffi was never annulled.
B/M - being a court of legitimacy - cannot define what the case evidence is or "rely" on something: they are actually even prevented from accessing the evidence file.
 
Nitpicking minor trivia. Also a consequence of the overly indulgent Italian motivations system that feels compelled to reconstruct stochastic chaotic events atom-for-atom. It's a messy indecipherable print on a fuzzy bathmat that could have been made by anybody.

Let's say Hellmann-Zanetti is an idiots' work, its quicker.

So in other words, he's perceptive. Good for him.

In other words he is a racist pig - as pointed out by Prosecutor General Riello before the Supreme Court (albeit using softer words).
When you find things like that in a verdict, you need to dump it in the trash. This cannot be.

Nobody's perfect. This was a mistake in his verdict and reasoning.

Oh, the complete lack of logic is a little mistake.

Overall he painted a consistent coherent picture of a burglary gone bad homicide whose flaky investigation ensnared two innocent students through unfortunate ambiguous circumstances that were found guilty despite the evidence being, to use his words "non existent."

So he is good because he writes some words that you like.
Although, to be accurate, he doesnt present any consistent picture of burglary gone wrong at all.

(...)
Then Chieffi said, ah, but Quintavalle was struck by Amanda's blue eyes in courts.

No, Chieffi only said Hellmann was a fraud, and everything he wrote is worth nothing. Hellmann's arguments are crap. SC established that definitively.
Hellmann doesn't exist and cannot exist in a court of law.
 
Let's say Hellmann-Zanetti is an idiots' work, its quicker.

Well, at least he can read a clock, which is more than can be said for say, Neninci. He doesn't have a high bar here.

In other words he is a racist pig - as pointed out by Prosecutor General Riello before the Supreme Court (albeit using softer words).
When you find things like that in a verdict, you need to dump it in the trash. This cannot be.

Amanda and Raff were not hanging around with Guede. Nobody put them together, not even individually. I don't recall any evidence that Amanda spoke two words to him. Raffaele never met him. The boys downstairs, who were of a shadier cut than Amanda and Raff because they were actively engaged in criminal activity (cultivating and I imagine distributing drugs) didn't even know Guede well, not well enough to know his name at any rate. He was over there just enough to consider it a valid burglary target, as far as I can tell.

You might as well just admit you buy your hero Guede's ridiculous date-toilet-black man found story. To be fair, it really is the only theory that can actually work with (some of) the evidence. In fact props has to be given to Guede for being the only person to date to put forth a straight forward linear PGP narrative.

Oh, the complete lack of logic is a little mistake.

I don't know much about the Italian judicial system, so I lack the context to conclude why Hellmann convicted on that charge. But from my perspective it is a much lesser logical failure than I have seen from the other judges.

So he is good because he writes some words that you like.
Although, to be accurate, he doesnt present any consistent picture of burglary gone wrong at all.

To be fair, it isn't his job to. His job was to analyze the prosecution's case against Amanda, which he correctly pointed out was garbage.

No, Chieffi only said Hellmann was a fraud, and everything he wrote is worth nothing. Hellmann's arguments are crap. SC established that definitively.
Hellmann doesn't exist and cannot exist in a court of law.

Chieffi is an embarrassment to your country's judicial system and if I were you I would try to quietly move on from publicizing the Chieffi report. But if you want to do the FOA's work for them, by all means spread the word of Chieffi to a wider audience.
 
Hellmann-Zanetti also says that the bathmat print is not Sollecito's because it has a toe attached to the metatarsus, and because the murderer must have stepped on pool of blood a flat surface in order to produce it (a pool of blood on a flat surface with a step in it doesn't exist on that murder scene).
Also says that Sollecito, Knox could not hang out together with Guede (despite the testimonies, despite they attended the same bars and the same friends and exactly the same places) because Knox & Sollecito are "goodfellows" while Guede is "different".
The same Helmmann-Zanetti also said that a malicious planting of false evidence against an innocent on a murder case is not logically connected to the murder.

So dishonest. The Bathmat print was USELESS for any positive attributions. And there were NO credible testimonies that Sollecito ever met Guede. Kokomani was a joke.

But guess what? The case is over. There may or may not be some financial compensation coming to Knox or Sollecito but that is the end of it. Get over it.
 
And so we go round again.

This judge said this but meant this, that judge over ruled that judge who was over ruled by this judge who was over ruled by another judge.

This judge said this so that is a judicial fact.

This judge declared this to be true even though there is no evidence to support it.

Whatever all these judges decreed the evidence is there for all to see.

There is no evidence whatsoever that AK washed MK's blood from her hands.

There is no evidence AK or RS were at the scene at the time of the murder, there is evidence they had been at the house, but we all know they were there before and after the murder.

There are no footprints/shoeprints of AK or RS proven to be in MK's blood.

There is no evidence of blond hairs found on the handbag.

There is no womans shoeprint in blood in the murder room.

The bra clasp was kicked around, moved across the room and handled by multiple persons before being tested, as evidence it is useless. It would be interesting to have found out if any of the unattributed DNA found on the clasp belonged to any of the investigators or Filomena's boyfriend who was also known to have come into contact with the bedroom door.

Arguing about what happened in the police interviews is never going to come to anything as there is no recording of them.....apparently.

The case has gone through the whole of the Italian legal process and the outcome is the two accused have been found not guilty.

Even if, as some believe, there was more than one attacker, it makes no difference to the trial of AK and RS. Their trial was to find if they were involved in the murder, not whether RG acted alone or not.

They went into this process presumed innocent unless it could be proven otherwise. They have been acquitted/exonerated/found not guilty therefore they retain their status of being innocent of the crime.

All the arguing about what was said and what it actually meant will not change this fact.
 
Do you mean the "Headsup" box on TJMK?
It reads:
I just love how speculations become facts over there on TJMK...
The "headsup" box above is based on two posts in the comments to TJMK's latest post (unrelated to the original post's subject).
The first one reads:

the second:
.
PQ's response is this post:
Always appreciated, good friend Ergon.

There is to be a Florence hearing on Sollecito’s attempt to settle for his defamations before Cassation hears his compensation appeal. For him hopefully unfortunate timing!

The Headsup box currently at the top reads as follows.


Posted by Peter Quennell on 06/12/17 at 08:17 AM | #


When it comes to Raffaele Sollecito, the last time we heard in the real media about the "book trial" (diffamazione) against Sollecito's book "Honor Bound" was in June 2015, IIRC there were some posts on TJMK about the parties fighting in subsequent hearings about the correct translations, but it looks like PQ has removed them...

The latest from Raffaele Sollecito is, that he is suing PM Mignini and others (dated April 2017), so at least to me it doesn't look like Sollecito If you have information I don't have (like a court date) please share...

When it comes to the highlighted parts of PQ's comment, lacking something substantial, I guess his "There is to be" is - just as usual - wishful thinking.

When it comes to the "bodes very badly for Knox as her book is far more defamatory - and amazingly was re-released with all defamations intact." I'd suggest the Italian Codice Penale as reading material, as there are Articles 595, 597 and especially Article 124:





:D

ETA: Your "book calunnia" shows, that you have no idea what you are talking about...


Diffamazione then. Things will soon become clear as all the loose ends are tied up.

One thing is clear. Both Raff and Amanda defamed Mignini outrageously in their books, presumably under the belief he would be convicted with 'abuse of office' in the Monster of Florence trial.

Well, he has been totally and completely cleared (the offence 'did not exist').

Where does that leave the kids' claims of his corruption and victimisation?

We can see why Raff might want to settle.
 
Diffamazione then. Things will soon become clear as all the loose ends are tied up.

One thing is clear. Both Raff and Amanda defamed Mignini outrageously in their books, presumably under the belief he would be convicted with 'abuse of office' in the Monster of Florence trial.

Well, he has been totally and completely cleared (the offence 'did not exist').

Where does that leave the kids' claims of his corruption and victimisation?

We can see why Raff might want to settle.

One thing is clear; that nothing you claim regarding Sollecito "begging for Mignini to settle" is based on any evidence. It's mere speculation and wishful thinking on your part.

The M of F case against Mignini has absolutely nothing to do with Sollecito. Once again, you presume to know what Sollecito is thinking. You don't.
 
Diffamazione then. Things will soon become clear as all the loose ends are tied up.

One thing is clear. Both Raff and Amanda defamed Mignini outrageously in their books, presumably under the belief he would be convicted with 'abuse of office' in the Monster of Florence trial.

Well, he has been totally and completely cleared (the offence 'did not exist').
Where does that leave the kids' claims of his corruption and victimisation?

We can see why Raff might want to settle.

Is this the same as being totally and completely cleared because the appellants did not commit the act?
 
Do you mean the "Headsup" box on TJMK?
It reads:
I just love how speculations become facts over there on TJMK...
The "headsup" box above is based on two posts in the comments to TJMK's latest post (unrelated to the original post's subject).
The first one reads:

the second:
.
PQ's response is this post:
Always appreciated, good friend Ergon.

There is to be a Florence hearing on Sollecito’s attempt to settle for his defamations before Cassation hears his compensation appeal. For him hopefully unfortunate timing!

The Headsup box currently at the top reads as follows.


Posted by Peter Quennell on 06/12/17 at 08:17 AM | #


When it comes to Raffaele Sollecito, the last time we heard in the real media about the "book trial" (diffamazione) against Sollecito's book "Honor Bound" was in June 2015, IIRC there were some posts on TJMK about the parties fighting in subsequent hearings about the correct translations, but it looks like PQ has removed them...

The latest from Raffaele Sollecito is, that he is suing PM Mignini and others (dated April 2017), so at least to me it doesn't look like Sollecito If you have information I don't have (like a court date) please share...

When it comes to the highlighted parts of PQ's comment, lacking something substantial, I guess his "There is to be" is - just as usual - wishful thinking.

When it comes to the "bodes very badly for Knox as her book is far more defamatory - and amazingly was re-released with all defamations intact." I'd suggest the Italian Codice Penale as reading material, as there are Articles 595, 597 and especially Article 124:





:D

ETA: Your "book calunnia" shows, that you have no idea what you are talking about...

Diffamazione then. Things will soon become clear as all the loose ends are tied up.
Thank you, since the discussion about this case is down to shouting matches about the meanings of words I guess having the right word to discuss might be important ;)
On the highlighted part: I guess the "loose ends" won't be "tied up", they'll just unravel and this second to last(?) sattelite trial will just die, like most of the ones before by the statute of limitations kicking in...
One thing is clear. Both Raff and Amanda defamed Mignini outrageously in their books, presumably under the belief he would be convicted with 'abuse of office' in the Monster of Florence trial.
How so?

Please be specific, The "Narducci" nonsense seems to be connected to the "Monster of Florence", but it looks like Dr Mignini wasn't able to score a conviction on that one either.
Fact is that back in 2007 when Meredith Kercher was murdered by Rudy Guede, Dr Mignini faced charges of "abuse of office" and suggesting that those charges had an influence on his "investigation"/"framing of Knox and Sollecito for the Kercher murder" looks like "fair comment" to me, not defamation...

Well, he has been totally and completely cleared (the offence 'did not exist').
Most of the case against Dr Mignini has been solved by the statute of limitations with the prosecutors of Florence torpedoing their own case wasting time by going to the Supreme Court instead of getting the judges in Turin up to speed. The latest piece from the CSM only proves that this instance isn't really willing to do the job it is assigned to. Its job is to sort out the "rotten apples" in the Italian justice system, but it looks like they are only there to confirm that "there are no rotten apples"...

Where does that leave the kids' claims of his corruption and victimisation?
I guess it's still standing, because Dr Mignini being cleared in 2017 doesn't change how things were in 2007, when he was desperate to win a high profile case to divert attention from his troubles in Florence...
On a sidenote: if you look at Dr Migninis closing arguments to Judge Micheli it is very clear that for him this case is about him and his "bella figura":
Signor Giudice dell'udienza preliminare, la Procura deve trarre le sue conclusioni, a questa udienza, in relazione ad un delitto la cui gravità ed efferatezza è ben testimoniata dallo straordinario interesse che questo tragico episodio ha suscitato, possiamo dire, nel mondo intero.

Si è parlato di "delitto globale”, per alludere ad una vicenda che ha coinvolto emotivamente l'opinione pubblica nazionale ed internazionale, specie, in quest'ultimo caso, in quest'ultimo aggettivo (internazionale), quelle dei paesi di lingua anglosassone a cui apparteneva la vittima, la giovane Kercher Meredith Susana Cara e appartiene l'imputata Amanda Knox.

È una vicenda giudiziaria che si è svolta e continua ad esserlo, sotto i riflettori mediatici di mezzo mondo, con tutti i problemi che questo ha comportato.

Glì organi d'informazione esercitano un'attività fondamentale e imprescindibile in un ordinamento democratico. Debbo dire che, salve alcune eccezioni, gli stessi, sia italiani che stranieri, hanno svolto egregiamente un'attività che deve contemperarsi, e non è affatto facile, con l'opposta e parimenti imprescindibile esigenza della segretezza degli atti d'indagine.

Non si può ignorare, però, che vi sono stati interventi anomali, lesivi, spesso gravemente, dei diritti individuali e, purtroppo, numerose violazioni del segreto investigativo che hanno arrecato non pochi danni alle indagini perché la violazione del precetto di cui all'art. 326 C.P. si porta dietro, come elemento indefettibile, un pregiudizio all'attività d'indagine e, spesso, un danno incalcolabile a chi è stato colpito da un dolore che nessuna statuizione giudiziaria potrà colmare e agli stessi indagati e imputati.

All'udienza preliminare, nel corso dell'escussione del teste Barrow ma anche di quella di Kokomani, è emerso un fenomeno scandaloso, quello del mercimonio avente ad oggetto atti processuali e in particolare audizioni di persone informate sui fatti: di fronte a offerte di denaro per rendere interviste o per partecipare a trasmissioni televisive, vi è chi si è correttamente rifiutato di prestarsi a profferte così vergognose e chi addirittura l'ha sollecitata. Ma dall'altra parte, vi è stato sempre il tentativo di spostare la "gestione" della vicenda su canali extraprocessuali, spesso al fine di demolire il lavoro degli inquirenti e l'accertamento della verità dei fatti.

Non possono tacersi, inoltre, gli attacchi strumentali e inqualificabili che sono stati rivolti agli inquirenti, specialmente agli organi di Polizia giudiziaria e sul servizio di Polizia scientifica della Direzione Centrale Anticrimine della Polizia di Stato, da chi ha approfittato del vincolo assoluto del riserbo che grava sugli inquirenti stessi e dell'opposta, libera possibilità per difensori e CC.TT. delle parti private e "difensori" di supporto delle stesse, di partecipare ad ogni genere di trasmissioni e rendere tutte le interviste e dichiarazioni che abbiano inteso rendere.

Si è tentato di arrivare ad una "cognizzazione", mi si perdoni il neologismo, del delitto di Perugia, per alludere non all'esito giudiziale del procedimento, ma al ''processo mediatico" del delitto del piccolo Samuele.

Spesso, qualche organo d'informazione o qualche "esperto" o "cultore", nazionale o non, che non conosceva una virgola degli atti del procedimento, ignorando disinvoltamente, presuntuosamente e superficialmente (miscela esplosiva !), com'è ormai costume, che le indagini le fanno i Pubblici Ministeri e la Polizia giudiziaria e che vanno rispettate le statuizioni ormai immodificabili dell’Autorittà giudiziaria, ha parlato, a proposito del delitto di Perugia, di un "caso irrisolto" (mi è capitato spesso di sentirlo così definire in televisione), come altri delitti (come ad esempio, quello di Garlasco), cercando di portare "acqua" al mulino di qualcuno degli imputati a discapito di altri.

Tralascio gli anomali interventi dei genitori e parenti dei due imputati, interventi che possono anche comprendersi ma che hanno espresso la più totale ignoranza delle norme processuali e sostanziali e dell'andamento stesso delle indagini.

Ma, certi ambienti e non, spesso d'oltreoceano, non si sono fermati a questo .... la presunzione è una malattia molto diffusa contro cui non esistono cure, purtroppo, quando ad essa si associa, immancabile, la superficialità.

No, sono andati oltre: hanno attaccato in maniera indecorosa, con assoluta carenza di argomenti e con impressionante superficialità il sistema giudiziario di questo Stato, l'unico, ricordo, avente giurisdizione su questa vicenda.

Ma non basta ancora: supportati da qualche noto giallista, totalmente sprovvisto di cultura giuridica specie degli ordinamenti stranieri e terrorizzato da inesistenti provvedimenti di espulsione o di arresto nei sui confronti (che esistono solo nella sua indubbiamente fervida fantasia di scrittore) e sostenitore
fideistico di teorie investigative ormai definitivamente sconfessate a livello giudiziario e calunniose per innocenti, hanno cercato di legare strumentalmente questo delitto di Perugia a vicende criminali efferate e crudeli, quanto inquietanti, inquinate e sordide, accadute non lontano da qui e le ramificazioni locali di tali vicende. Gli stessi si sono letteralmente inventati riferimenti a non ben definite "ipotesi cospirative" per spiegare il coinvolgimento giudiziario della Knox e del Sollecito, accanto al (secondo loro) unico e vero responsabile, il ragazzo di colore, come se per questi personaggi i delitti si dovessero commettere sempre e soltanto da singoli e non esistessero crimini commessi da consorzi criminali (cito, tra tutti, quelli di "Cosa Nostra"), se non in prospettive "di cospirazione", che non ho ancora capito con esattezza cosa significhi e a cosa alluda. 1 riferimenti a queste "teorie" li ho letti in uno strano blog aperto in coincidenza con il due novembre 07. Questo accade quando si pretende di accostarsi alla variegata realtà criminale del nostro tempo con l'ottica deformante degli schemi preconcetti su cui far rientrare per forza la realtà, aprioristicamente "cospirazionisti" o aprioristicamente"anticospirazionisti" poco importa.

Ovviamente, le menti di tale operazione stanno, però, in Italia, non negli Stati Uniti.

Hanno detto, per lo più da 9.000 cliilometri di distanza, meno frequentemente da 5.000, senza conoscere forse nemmeno una parola degli atti del procedimento nè la complessità del linguaggio giuridico italiano : abbiamo capito tutto. Da qui, abbiamo capito tutto: c'è un solo responsabile, il ragazzo di colore, gli altri non c'entrano. Ve lo diciamo noi.

Io sono rimasto scandalizzato e sconcertata da questo atteggiamento. È la prima volta che mi ci sono imbattuto e non credo che mi troverò ancora di fronte a tanta presunzione e superficialità.

Un minimo di esperienza, di prudenza, di accortezza dovrebbe impedire simili giudizi sommari, espressi da 5.000, ma più spesso addirittura da 9.000 chilometri di distanza.

E tutto questo senza spendere una sola parola sul fatto che le ordinanze custodiali siano state confermate in tutti i loro presupposti dal Tribunale del Riesame e dalla Prima Sezione penale della Suprema Corte !

Sorvolo su altri, ancora più gravi, incredibili e reiterati episodi d'interferenza. Mi limito a dire che sarebbero inconcepibili in Italia e non siamo certo un paese perfetto.

Noi italiani, come tutti i popoli di questo mondo, chi più chi meno, abbiamo i nostri difetti. E uno di
essi, secondo me, il maggiore e il più limitante, è l'esterofilia e l'autocommiserazione, gravissimo limite: l'idea che gli altri facciano sempre meglio e che i sistemi degli altri siano migliori e debbano per forza essere imitati. La realtà e l'esperienza di questa vicenda giudiziario - mediatica dovrebbe suggerire invece maggiore realismo e discernimento.

Credo, infatti, che pregi e difetti siano diffusi tra tutti i popoli di questo mondo e che ognuno debba dotarsi dei sistemi, specie giudiziari, conformi alla propria identità e alla propria storia, senza imitare per forza gli altri.

Nessuno, in Italia, si sarebbe permesso di denigrare ed attaccare con tanta impudenza e sfacciataggine gli inquirenti, ad esempio, statunitensi. Da noi c’è lo sport, ormai sempre più in voga, di attaccare comunque e dovunque i magistrati italiani, specie del Pubblico Ministero, ma a nessun giornalista, ad esempio, italiano, a nessun operatore giuridico italiano verrebbe in mente di diffamare e calunniare un Pubblico Ministero americano che stia indagando su un imputato italiano. A nessuno e giustamente. A questi, si, eccome ! E non solo il Pubblico Ministero ma anche il GIP, anche il Tribunale del Riesame e anche i giudici della Corte Suprema che hanno condiviso in pieno tutti i presupposti delle ordinanze di custodia cautelare !

E oggi, su queste ordinanze e sentenze, è calata la pietra tombale (per gli imputati) della definitività ed incontestabilità.

Si potranno condividere o meno, ma nessuno, in Italia e altrove può permettersi di affermare che contro i due imputati Knox e Sollecito (che sono quelli per cui si batte la grancassa mediatica) non vi siano elementi che giustifichino la custodia cautelare e che l'unico che meriti la prigione sia il “cattivo"di turno, il ragazzo di colore che non gode evidentemente di tanti sponsor a livello internazionale.

Si è cercata la rissa...la provocazione, sperando che da essa potesse giungere qualcosa di positivo per la Knox ed il Sollecito e perché si potesse scaricare tutto sul ragazzo di colore alla cui difesa va il merito di un'assoluta correttezza professionale.

Si è cercato di togliere di mezzo, attraverso la calunnia, da questi degni discepoli di Don Basilio, non solo gli uomini e le donne della Squadra Mobile che hanno svolto egregiamente il loro compito, si è cercato, addirittura, di togliere di mezzo in questa, ma soprattutto in altre vicende giudiziarie, il
Pubblico Ministero, ma nessuno si faccia illusioni: nessuno ha abbandonato e abbandonerà mai il suo posto. Sia molto chiaro a tutti, a Perugia e altrove.

Eppure, nonostante la difficoltà, quasi l'impossibilità di lavorare con serenità e tranquillità, nonostante tutti gli ostacoli e le turbative, nonostante le mine vaganti di questo e di altro procedimento che si è voluto legare al primo, sono stati necessari solo otto mesi per concludere le indagini, inviare gli avvisi ex art. 415 bis c.p.p. e richiedere il rinvio a giudizio dei tre imputati e le misure cautelari, come s'è detto, ma va ripetuto, sono state tutte puntualmente e rigorosamente confermate dal Tribunale del Riesame e dalla Suprema Corte, cosa che, troppo spesso, i detrattori, italiani e non, delle indagini, hanno disinvoltamente occultato e passato sotto silenzio.

E come non sottolineare la compostezza e il riserbo che in questi mesi, in questi difficili mesi, hanno invece caratterizzato i familiari della giovane ragazza uccisa (la conferma di uno stile di vita che caratterizzava lei e le sue più strette amiche e che emerso dagli atti): nessuno potrà ridare a loro quella giovane simpatica e amante della vita che noi abbiamo imparato a conoscere dalle foto e dai ricordi dei familiari e delle amiche, quella ragazza che in fondo era amata da pressoché tutti coloro che la conoscevano, che amava profondamente questa città e il panorama, splendido, che poteva ammirarsi da quell'appartamento nel quale era felice di trascorrere la sua esperienza italiana e perugina, in attesa di tornare a Londra per il compleanno della madre a cui Meredith, Mez per gli amici, era tanto affezionata. Da loro, dalla madre, dal padre, dai fratelli non abbiamo visto altro che un dolore incolmabile e l'attesa fiduciosa di giustizia. Non un gesto né una parola inutile, stonata e fuori posto....

È una premessa d'obbligo, a difesa dei miei collaboratori, dell'ufficio a cui appartengo e della vittima di questo efferato delitto.

Oggi, noi siamo davanti a Lei per la stessa vicenda ma in relazione a due istituti processuali diversi tra loro.

Da una parte, c'è il giudizio abbreviato richiesto dall’imputato Rudy Herman Guede, un giudizio che, a prescindere del l'esito degli esami testimonial i svolti, dovrà basarsi sugli atti dell’indagine e nel quale Lei Signor Giudice dell’udienza preliminare dovrà decidere nel merito.

Dall'altra, c'e l'udienza preliminare classica, per gli altri due imputati, che dovrà concludersi con una statuizione meramente processuale, non di merito, concernente la utilità e la necessità del giudizio o
l'inutilità di un giudizio, sulla base, rispettivamente, della presenza o meno di elementi che impongano l'approfondimento e la verifica dibattimentali dell'accusa.

We can see why Raff might want to settle.
Well, to me it looks like "Raff" (haven't you still found out how the name "Raffaele" is written?) is attacking, not retreating...
 
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It has been shown in the trial that more than 100 tests were performed by the same machine over six days in which no trace of contamination from Meredith's DNA turned out, before the amplification of sample 36B.
It is proven there was no laboratory contamination.
Nobody ever found laboratory contamination on this case. No courts of merits found laboratory contamination. It is a pro-Knox invention.



Your use of the word "desperation" is amusing, nonsensical.
The testing of sample 36B was within an incodente probatorio, a procedure open to scrutiny and documentation by all parties, and prof. Potenza (Sollecito's defence consultant) took part to the tests.



Stefanoni, on 8th Oct. 2008 hearing, declared that several confirmatory tests on samples from luminol footprints were performed, and they turned out negative. She also warned the judge that those tests usually turn out negative when they are collected from latent traces, thus it was not possible to draw a definitive conclusion through biological tests.Your allegations against Stefanoni are false.

Mach, prior to performing the DNA profiling on 36B the results from the lab were;

- Negative for blood using TMB
- Negative for human species using an antibody test (confirmatory)
- Negative for DNA (using the Qubit Fluorometer, NOT PCR as Stefanoni said)

Do you deny this? (I assume you won't as it's all very well documented). And I think we can also agree these were exactly the same results obtained from sample 36C.

So now, please explain why;

1. Why was 36B recorded as DNA positive while 36C was recorded as DNA negative when they both had identical lab results?
2. Why was 36B amplified when every test run prior to that indicated there was nothing in the sample to test?

It was desperation. Three tests all indicated there was nothing to test for in the sample. I believe ANY credible forensic lab would have simply filed sample 36B away because the tests results indicated as much. To perform DNA amplification at that point was a desperate attempt to find something when everything was indicating there was nothing there.

There absolutely was contamination in Stefanoni's lab - that was proven. Stefanoni and her lab is probably the ONLY forensic lab in the world that claims they've never had a case of contamination. It says a lot about Stefanoni.

Contamination is NOT proven by way of citing usage of the equipment prior to the test. It is done by way of positive and negative controls. There were no negative control results provided for the analysis work on this sample.

All this becomes moot anyway since Stefanoni only performed a single amplification run which per international standards (even today) is insufficient for LCN profiling. I get it that you don't think much of following proper protocols but even your own RIS made it clear a single amplification of LCN DNA is insufficient to considered the results reliable.

So you have something that Luminol reacts to (Luminol reacts to MANY things other than blood... a very well documented problem when using Luminol). You admit further tests were performed on these samples (specifically TMB and DNA) and came back negative. But in your mind, it's entirely proper to allow an assumption to supersede scientific test results. I can't even begin to describe how ludicrous that idea is. So you assume;

- The traces are blood even though the only tests performed on the samples other than Luminol indicated it wasn't.
- You assume it's human blood (as opposed, say, to being cat blood) even though no tests which could have confirmed it was human blood were run.
- You assume it's Meredith's blood even though there was either no DNA, or the DNA found didn't belong to Meredith.

It's laughable how you can look past all of this overwhelming evidence proving the traces were not made from Meredith's blood merely because Luminol reacted to them and you want it to be Meredith's blood.

And btw, ALL samples collected from a crime scene are 'latent' yet in most cases definitive results can be obtained using proper testing procedures. And when proper test procedures can't yield definitive results the samples are discarded.

By your logic the following is perfectly acceptable;

"Your Honor, I performed multiple tests on the sample and they all came back negative, but I respectfully ask you to ignore those results and trust me on this... it's the victims blood."

My opinion of Stefanoni is just that, an opinion. However, my "allegations" are supported by the facts of the case. What allegation(s) do you think are false?
 
Is this the same as being totally and completely cleared because the appellants did not commit the act?

Nope. Section 530 para 1, explicitly states '[the offence] does not exist'.

Section 530 para 2 is silent. It merely says, 'insufficient evidence'.

It is not on the statute.

(You do know what a statute is, I hope.)
 
One thing is clear; that nothing you claim regarding Sollecito "begging for Mignini to settle" is based on any evidence. It's mere speculation and wishful thinking on your part.

The M of F case against Mignini has absolutely nothing to do with Sollecito. Once again, you presume to know what Sollecito is thinking. You don't.

Really? Are you sure? The PIP have spent all these years hollering (as you say in the States) that 'Mignini is a corrupt prosecutor being investigated in the MOF case and has mad theories about dark rituals'.

Raff and Amanda exploit this fully in their books.

And now poor Raffy Boy is summonsed to a court to explain his calumnies to a judge.

Where does that leave Madam? Her book is bristling with claims of Mignini's alleged unhealthy corruption and persecution of her.
 
Thank you, since the discussion about this case is down to shouting matches about the meanings of words I guess having the right word to discuss might be important ;)
On the highlighted part: I guess the "loose ends" won't be "tied up", they'll just unravel and this second to last(?) sattelite trial will just die, like most of the ones before by the statute of limitations kicking in...

How so?

Please be specific, The "Narducci" nonsense seems to be connected to the "Monster of Florence", but it looks like Dr Mignini wasn't able to score a conviction on that one either.
Fact is that back in 2007 when Meredith Kercher was murdered by Rudy Guede, Dr Mignini faced charges of "abuse of office" and suggesting that those charges had an influence on his "investigation"/"framing of Knox and Sollecito for the Kercher murder" looks like "fair comment" to me, not defamation...


Most of the case against Dr Mignini has been solved by the statute of limitations with the prosecutors of Florence torpedoing their own case wasting time by going to the Supreme Court instead of getting the judges in Turin up to speed. The latest piece from the CSM only proves that this instance isn't really willing to do the job it is assigned to. Its job is to sort out the "rotten apples" in the Italian justice system, but it looks like they are only there to confirm that "there are no rotten apples"...


I guess it's still standing, because Dr Mignini being cleared in 2017 doesn't change how things were in 2007, when he was desperate to win a high profile case to divert attention from his troubles in Florence...
On a sidenote: if you look at Dr Migninis closing arguments to Judge Micheli it is very clear that for him this case is about him and his "bella figura":



Well, to me it looks like "Raff" (haven't you still found out how the name "Raffaele" is written?) is attacking, not retreating...


Careful. You can't accuse Mignini of corruption as you have no proof he broke the law .

The Micheli closing submissions: so what? It was his JOB as - hello? - Public Prosecutor to submit the prosecution case.
 
One thing is clear; that nothing you claim regarding Sollecito "begging for Mignini to settle" is based on any evidence. It's mere speculation and wishful thinking on your part.

The M of F case against Mignini has absolutely nothing to do with Sollecito. Once again, you presume to know what Sollecito is thinking. You don't.

Really? Are you sure? The PIP have spent all these years hollering (as you say in the States) that 'Mignini is a corrupt prosecutor being investigated in the MOF case and has mad theories about dark rituals'.

Raff and Amanda exploit this fully in their books.

And now poor Raffy Boy is summonsed to a court to explain his calumnies to a judge.

Where does that leave Madam? Her book is bristling with claims of Mignini's alleged unhealthy corruption and persecution of her.

Yes, really. Nothing you posted is based on any evidence. It's pure conjecture. You present no evidence that Raffaele is "begging" Mignini, or even negotiating, to settle the lawsuit. The fact that Raffaele filed a lawsuit against Mignini as recently as 2 months ago does not indicate he is "begging" Mignini for anything. When you can present evidence (not speculation, wishful thinking, or conjecture) supporting your claim, do so. Until then, it's just a waste of time.

Yes, I am sure that the M Of F case had nothing to do with the Kercher case itself. Although I do agree that Mignini, in 2007, was desperate for a "big win", I have never subscribed to the idea that Mignini was corrupt or intentionally "framed" Knox and Sollecito. I don't resort to the "corrupt judge" and other conspiracy theories the PGP are so fond of.

The PGP spent years proclaiming Amanda would be found guilty, extradited, and sent back to prison in Italy. Then you hung your hopes on the lawsuit by the police against her. How'd that work out for ya? As for the " mad theories about dark rituals", it is a fact that Mignini declared it as such in his address to the Oct 19, 2008 court when he said the murder:

“was premeditated and was in addition a ‘rite’ celebrated on the occasion of the night of Halloween. A sexual and sacrificial rite [that] in the intention of the organizers … should have occurred 24 hours earlier” — on Halloween itself — “but on account of a dinner at the house of horrors, organized by Meredith and Amanda’s Italian flatmates, it was postponed for one day.”

My advice would be not to get to sure of yourself about the results of Mignini's lawsuit against Raff. This is Italy and how it ends up is anybody's guess.

By the way, the use of "Raffy Boy" and "Madam" is very childish.
 
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