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The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 25

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Sure. A truthful witness. One who knows that Knox and Sollecito have been arrested for the murder but doesn't want to get involved. But, after more than a year and talking to a reporter, suddenly finds his conscience and wants to help. Uh huh.

Why did Quintavalle originally tell Volturno that Knox had only been to the store a couple of times and always with Sollecito? Yet, a year later he says he clearly remembers her coming alone the morning of Nov 2.
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The reporter was the same one who "just happened" to also "find" Curatolo. Gee...what a coincidence.

It is your distrust Quintavalle because of his refusal to talk before and possibly doesn't satisfy your "standard" as a witness. But, from an objective viewpoint, you have nothing beyond that for building a theory that Quintavalle is a liar. It is equally rational, and reasonable from a legal perspective, to note that the theory that the witness is planting false evidence, is also not sufficiently supported.
In my opinion, the testimony of Volturno indirectly reporting about their conversation, from which a degree of reticence is inferred, is an insufficient element to draw a conclusion that Quintavalle's court testimony is false, based on Italian jurisprudence.

However, I can't see your assessment as a neutral one. It seems to me that you would be ready to accept only absolutely trustworthy witnesses and dismiss as a false testimony anything that comes from someone with a record below the highest morality standard. But that's not acceptable in jurisprudence.
I am quite stunned, anyway, that the same people who dismiss Quintavalle's testimony because of his possible initial reticence, and are ready to call him a liar who plants false evidence just based on this, on the other hand they are ready to consider trustworthy testimonies and declarations like those Amanda Knox. Those people are ready to "buy" a version of person who claims she suffered of a false memory syndrome - so that truth is that she can't know what the truth is - and at the same time, she claims she remembers of her alibi and writes a book with detail about it. Those people are ready to believe the word (which one?) of "best truth"- and "the truth I don't know what the truth is"- woman who claims intermittent false memory syndrome and places blood on Sollecito's hands, over an anti-mafia prosecutor who investigated the Narducci case.
The double standard they show when it comes to defending the nonsensical ravings of their favourite suspects is quite staggering.
 
What does Italian law do in a situation where someone is simply mistaken or misremembering? Everything is not black and white; there are gray areas and multiple reasons for remembering incorrectly. Humans are notoriously horrible at remembering what they witness. Does Italian law not take into account the known factors with memory? You make it so it is either 100% correct or the witness is a rotten liar. This is not realistic and I can't believe Italian law does not allow for a middle ground.

Indeed jurisprudence has a lot of middle ground, but when it comes to witnesses, basically what is seen as "middle ground" is considered as belonging to the category of what is "reliable". Normally a judge is not called to decide on the reliability or unreliability of a person, but rather on the reliability or unreliability of a testimony. If there is a reason to suspect dishonesty of a person that may have to do with the specific topic of deposition, that has influence on reliability of the testimony.
So the bottom line is that a judge has to decide whether a testimony is reliable or not.
Being mistaken, misremembering, are obvious possibilities - that comes out anyway usually in general terms, when a person in good faith misremembers or is inaccurate or is mistaken, sometimes clues of that could be found in the testimony. All that belongs to the realm of inaccuracy, it's expressed in terms of accuracy rather than in terms of "reliability", but basically it's the same principle. There may be a margin of error or risk in testimonies and that's a very delicate issue, that's why some testimonies may be seen as pieces of circumstantial evidence that may work only if there are other pieces of circumstntial evidence in order to have a sufficient mass of evidence. The existence of further evidence reduces the margin of risk: this is the concept of trial based on circumstantial evidence.
 
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It is your distrust Quintavalle because of his refusal to talk before and possibly doesn't satisfy your "standard" as a witness. But, from an objective viewpoint, you have nothing beyond that for building a theory that Quintavalle is a liar. It is equally rational, and reasonable from a legal perspective, to note that the theory that the witness is planting false evidence, is also not sufficiently supported.
In my opinion, the testimony of Volturno indirectly reporting about their conversation, from which a degree of reticence is inferred, is an insufficient element to draw a conclusion that Quintavalle's court testimony is false, based on Italian jurisprudence.

However, I can't see your assessment as a neutral one. It seems to me that you would be ready to accept only absolutely trustworthy witnesses and dismiss as a false testimony anything that comes from someone with a record below the highest morality standard. But that's not acceptable in jurisprudence.
I am quite stunned, anyway, that the same people who dismiss Quintavalle's testimony because of his possible initial reticence, and are ready to call him a liar who plants false evidence just based on this, on the other hand they are ready to consider trustworthy testimonies and declarations like those Amanda Knox. Those people are ready to "buy" a version of person who claims she suffered of a false memory syndrome - so that truth is that she can't know what the truth is - and at the same time, she claims she remembers of her alibi and writes a book with detail about it. Those people are ready to believe the word (which one?) of "best truth"- and "the truth I don't know what the truth is"- woman who claims intermittent false memory syndrome and places blood on Sollecito's hands, over an anti-mafia prosecutor who investigated the Narducci case.
The double standard they show when it comes to defending the nonsensical ravings of their favourite suspects is quite staggering.

Oh, for God's sake, stop this nonsense. A liar or someone who plants false evidence does so KNOWING that what they are doing is wrong. A false memory, otoh, can be entirely benign. After a year his memory is muddied. A reporter speaks to him and suddenly he thinks "yeah, I remember this and that.." That is not lying, that's just a false memory.

As stated in a prior comment, Quintavalle confirmed to Volturno that he knew Amanda based on the color photo he was shown. He said he had seen her in the store a few times but only with Raffaele. WHY would he say that if he saw her in the store the morning after the murder? Volturno made it clear he wanted to know if Amanda or Raffaele was in the store in the days before or after the murder looking to buy cleaning supplies (bleach) and he said no. Why did he not say "I saw her in the store on the morning of the 1 Nov but I don't know if she bought any cleaning supplies"?

Why is it so difficult for you to assess what took place and accept that if he didn't identify Amanda being at his store when asked by the police, and if there is no CCTV footage to place her there, and there are no other witnesses - store employees or other shoppers - who put her there, and there is no receipt of her buying anything (which makes no sense) then maybe a year later he just THINKS he recalls seeing her and given everything just mentioned this recollection is not reliable. What is it about Quintavalle or his testimony that leads you to believe BARD that he DID see Amanda that morning? ...that is, other than you want it to be so. I would really like to know.
 
But, from an objective viewpoint, you have nothing beyond that for building a theory that Quintavalle is a liar.

ROFL. Except for all his *********** lies. Amanda and Raff spotted together months before Amanda left Seattle. Raff and Rudy sharing a coke. The guy is a fraud, and a stupid one at that. Of all the productive efforts you could focus your time on Mach. Just lol.
 
Mach, like Massei and Nencini before him, think there is no reason for Quintavalle to lie and therefore there is no reason to question his testimony. It's a ploy to evade the real issue of false memory. As mentioned earlier, Quintavalle was shown a color picture of Amanda just days after the murder. Quintavalle noted he had seen her in the store before but always in the presence of Raffaele. So he knows who the police are asking about. His saying she was always in the presence of Raffaele proves that at that point Quintavalle had never seen Amanda at the store alone. Quintavalle says he didn't mention Amanda when asked because he didn't know if she had bought Ace bleach. This is nonsense. If the police are asking you about someone shopping in your store, and you know who the person is, and you saw them then you will tell the police they were there but your not sure if they purchased anything. Quintavalle might have been lying (i.e., deliberately misrepresenting the facts) but much more likely is that over the course of the year his recollections have become muddied and at the behest of the cub reporter he came to believe he saw something he didn't think he saw just days after the murder.

But it is also possible that he remembered he saw the girl in the morning alone, but just didn't mention that to the police. Not because he didn't remember of that, but because, while he felt sure that the girl in the company of sollecito was the same of the newspaper pictures (also because of cognitive bias), on the other hand he did not feel sure that the girl he saw in the morning was the same person - and maybe also because given that he did not identify the morning girl as the same who was with Sollecito one at the time of questioning, because of cognitive paths he might have not even had the thought about that girl. Or maybe he had that thought in a doubtful way, so that he felt afraid to tell it or thought it was better not tell it.
We can draw rational scenarios about the cognitive behaviour of the witness that would explain his hesitance without making him become neither a liar nor a self-deluded individual.

Consider Curatolo's testimony. He claims he saw Amanda and Raffaele on the same evening the disco buses were operating and people were dressed in costume. But he also says the next day he sees the SP in their white overalls. Obviously this can't be since Halloween is 31 Oct and the SP were at the cottage on 2 Nov. So should we consider Curatolo is lying? Not according to the courts, which dismisses Curatolo's testimony regarding the buses and costumes because, per the ISC, Amanda and Raffaele weren't at Piazza Grimana on Halloween. They therefore conclude that he simply has a false memory on this point. However, that he claims the day after seeing them he sees the SP in white is indisputable.

It is objectively not true that it could not be the night of the murder, since it is actually not proven at all that buses were not operating that night (nor it is reasonable to assume it, since there are about 20 clubs in the surrounding area and several privately organized bus operate on Thursday - there's not just one operator, there are others who were never questioned). To dismiss Curatolo's testimony based on the detail of costumes is also not convincing, since Curatolo does not really testify about seeing costumes. He was rather distant and only expected to see costumes, and might have seen some curious attire that may have reminded of them: but Curatolo does not seem to be fully aware of the difference between Halloween and Ognissanti.
 
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(...)

Why is it so difficult for you to assess what took place and accept that if he didn't identify Amanda being at his store when asked by the police, and if there is no CCTV footage to place her there, and there are no other witnesses - store employees or other shoppers - who put her there, and there is no receipt of her buying anything (which makes no sense) then maybe a year later he just THINKS he recalls seeing her and given everything just mentioned this recollection is not reliable. What is it about Quintavalle or his testimony that leads you to believe BARD that he DID see Amanda that morning? ...that is, other than you want it to be so. I would really like to know.

No, really, I have little interest in assessing the reliability of Quintavalle's memory per sé. My point about Quintavalle was a point about Hellmann. I would have accepted a dismissal of Quintavalle's testimony on the part of Hellmann, if his reasons were reasonable. If they had been convincing. But they were not. Hellmann's reasons were fraudulent.

Now, when it comes to Quintavalle's reliability, my point is that I don't even seek to establish BARD that he saw actually Knox in his shop (albeit there is some confirmation from witness Chiriboga). It may be impossible in rerum natura to establish BARD that a testimony is true in the absence of possibility of objective of corroboration. The fact of not being safe and impossible to prove, belongs to the intrinsic nature of testimony. A testimony however is a fact, and it's a fact that works as a piece of circumstantial evidence together with others.

So what I do with Quintavalle is not to believe him blindly, but put his testimony into a system. The effect of his testimony is to disprove Knox's account about the morning.
Now, the point is that Knox's morning account is actually contradicted and undermined by a series of other pieces of evidence, not just by Quintavalle alone. There is other evidence showing the Knox and Sollecito lied. There is an inconsistency between her plan of a trip to Gubbio in the early morning and the time when she said she woke up; there is an inconsistency between the time she said she woke up, and the telephone call from Sollecito's father; there is a contradiction between their accounts of the night (reportedly relaxed & sleeping until 10.30) and the computer records (showing someone was awake for a long time); there is a contradiction between the time she said they had dinner and Sollecito's phone conversation with his father; there is an inconsistency in Knox's reasons for taking a shower in another house, and inconsistencies in Sollecito's and Knox's description of what she did when she alledegly left the house; there is a contradiction between Sollecito's alibi and his computer records. And, there are also elements of a very strange and unexplained behaviour of Knox that is rather consistent with Quintavalle describing her unusualy looking for something in the detergents area: Knox tells a story where she carries a mop and a bucket from a hous to another across the town, for no credible reason. Now, I have never seen in my life anyone walking through the city carrying a bucket and a floor mop. Nobody does anything like that. Why would she tell a story like that that? I assume that if she tells this story, it's because she must have done something like that in the morning, and someone might have seen her doing it, and she knows that it would be something extremely suspicious.

Quintavalle, to me comes across only as a further element of a system. He is one piece of evidence not to be taken alone, but itogether with the whole set of pieces of evidence that undermine Knox's account of the night and morning.
 
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I'm still waiting for Ashley Olsen's friend Amy to be arrested in connection with Ashley's murder in Florence. Did they find her DNA in her own sink yet? They should check as it's very incriminating. Pay no mind that the murder was solved and the killer was seen on CCTV alone heading towards the victim's place, as we know from the Knox case, he was probably just an unfortunate random bystander ensnared by the mastermind shedevil he never met.

He was someone she picked up in a nightclub.

I dare say Knox did the same with Rudy, although at the basketball court.

She says so by her own hand.
 
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Here's my theory of the crime and the corresponding evidence:

-Guede scouted the cottage as a potential burglary target (Evidence: picked up on CCTV)

-Guede smashed the upper window with a large heavy rock, and climbed up and in through the window (Evidence: the rock was proven to be thrown from outside, Guede has a history of rock throwing window climbing break-ins)

-Guede snooped around a bit then went to the toilet (Evidence: open drawer in one of the flatmates room)

-Guede was surprised on the toiler by Meredith's unexpected return (Evidence: unflushed crap in the toilet, Guede's testimony)

-Guede either attempted to escape and encountered the double dead bolt lock, or confronted Meredith right away, either way he eventually attacked her, grabbed her, and stabbed her (Evidence: 3 knife wounds matching a single small switchblade/penknife)

-Guede sexually assaulted Meredith (Evidence: tore bra off, Guede's DNA from rapekit)

-Guede went into the bathroom to clean himself up and grab towels (Evidence: Guede's testimony, blood and footprint in the bathroom)

-Guede got bloody water on his foot while cleaning and made the footprint before putting his shoes back on. (Evidence: bloody bare print on the bathmat)

-Guede went back into the room, rummaged through Meredith purse for goodies her lifeless corpse posed no further obstacle to, stepped in blood, and walked out leaving a trail of blood (Evidence: Guede's DNA on the purse, 16 bloody footprints)

-Guede hit the locked front door, turned back, got Meredith's keys, and left for the final time, locking Meredith's door behind him (Evidence: Meredith's locked door)

Now let's see your reconstruction, this should be good.

This is a good summary of the basics that fit nicely with the evidence and common sense!

I dont think Rudy's bloody bare foot was because of washing them though. He said his pants were wet when leaving and his knees had earlier been soaked in blood when he applied the towels. (for some of his story he gets to be honest!)

I think that in the 2nd bathroom trip, after getting towels on the first one, he tried to wash excess blood off of the pants. So he takes off shoes, socks. Then the pants. As he takes them off he steps on the pants where there is blood, transferring a good amount of blood to the mat in the shape of his foot (generally). He rinses the pants (fully or partially) and puts them back on along with socks and shoes. At this point only his knees have come into contact with the blood on the floor (though he had blood many other places too no doubt) and so there are no other footprints/shoeprints there.
 
This is a good summary of the basics that fit nicely with the evidence and common sense!

I dont think Rudy's bloody bare foot was because of washing them though. He said his pants were wet when leaving and his knees had earlier been soaked in blood when he applied the towels. (for some of his story he gets to be honest!)

I think that in the 2nd bathroom trip, after getting towels on the first one, he tried to wash excess blood off of the pants. So he takes off shoes, socks. Then the pants. As he takes them off he steps on the pants where there is blood, transferring a good amount of blood to the mat in the shape of his foot (generally). He rinses the pants (fully or partially) and puts them back on along with socks and shoes. At this point only his knees have come into contact with the blood on the floor (though he had blood many other places too no doubt) and so there are no other footprints/shoeprints there.


Blimey.
 
It is your distrust Quintavalle because of his refusal to talk before and possibly doesn't satisfy your "standard" as a witness. But, from an objective viewpoint, you have nothing beyond that for building a theory that Quintavalle is a liar. It is equally rational, and reasonable from a legal perspective, to note that the theory that the witness is planting false evidence, is also not sufficiently supported.
In my opinion, the testimony of Volturno indirectly reporting about their conversation, from which a degree of reticence is inferred, is an insufficient element to draw a conclusion that Quintavalle's court testimony is false, based on Italian jurisprudence.

However, I can't see your assessment as a neutral one. It seems to me that you would be ready to accept only absolutely trustworthy witnesses and dismiss as a false testimony anything that comes from someone with a record below the highest morality standard. But that's not acceptable in jurisprudence.
I am quite stunned, anyway, that the same people who dismiss Quintavalle's testimony because of his possible initial reticence, and are ready to call him a liar who plants false evidence just based on this, on the other hand they are ready to consider trustworthy testimonies and declarations like those Amanda Knox. Those people are ready to "buy" a version of person who claims she suffered of a false memory syndrome - so that truth is that she can't know what the truth is - and at the same time, she claims she remembers of her alibi and writes a book with detail about it. Those people are ready to believe the word (which one?) of "best truth"- and "the truth I don't know what the truth is"- woman who claims intermittent false memory syndrome and places blood on Sollecito's hands, over an anti-mafia prosecutor who investigated the Narducci case.
The double standard they show when it comes to defending the nonsensical ravings of their favourite suspects is quite staggering.

You are turning yourself inside out trying to make something logical and believable that just isn't.

I've explained exactly why Quintavalle's testimony is not credible and so has TruthCalls, so I won't bother to do so again.

As for comparing Quintavalle's memory to Knox's, he was under no psychological stress and had suffered no trauma at all when he was questioned by Volturno. He had not just had his roommate murdered in his own home. He had not been subjected to hours of questioning by the police at the questura or at the crime scene. He was being asked a simple question in his own shop. He was not being yelled at, accused of murder, or told he was lying when he didn't tell Volturno he had not seen Knox. That you cannot see the difference is quite staggering...but unsurprising.
 
He was someone she picked up in a nightclub.

I dare say Knox did the same with Rudy, although at the basketball court.

She says so by her own hand.

You can "dare say" all you like along with all the other conjecture you throw out there. But let's get back to reality... cite the evidence "in her own hand" (or anywhere else) that Amanda picked up Guede at the basketball court. This should be interesting.

You can cite that along with the FORENSIC EVIDENCE that Amanda washed her hands of Meredith's blood.
 
No, really, I have little interest in assessing the reliability of Quintavalle's memory per sé. My point about Quintavalle was a point about Hellmann. I would have accepted a dismissal of Quintavalle's testimony on the part of Hellmann, if his reasons were reasonable. If they had been convincing. But they were not. Hellmann's reasons were fraudulent.

Now, when it comes to Quintavalle's reliability, my point is that I don't even seek to establish BARD that he saw actually Knox in his shop (albeit there is some confirmation from witness Chiriboga). It may be impossible in rerum natura to establish BARD that a testimony is true in the absence of possibility of objective of corroboration. The fact of not being safe and impossible to prove, belongs to the intrinsic nature of testimony. A testimony however is a fact, and it's a fact that works as a piece of circumstantial evidence together with others.

So what I do with Quintavalle is not to believe him blindly, but put his testimony into a system. The effect of his testimony is to disprove Knox's account about the morning.
Now, the point is that Knox's morning account is actually contradicted and undermined by a series of other pieces of evidence, not just by Quintavalle alone. There is other evidence showing the Knox and Sollecito lied. There is an inconsistency between her plan of a trip to Gubbio in the early morning and the time when she said she woke up; there is an inconsistency between the time she said she woke up, and the telephone call from Sollecito's father; there is a contradiction between their accounts of the night (reportedly relaxed & sleeping until 10.30) and the computer records (showing someone was awake for a long time); there is a contradiction between the time she said they had dinner and Sollecito's phone conversation with his father; there is an inconsistency in Knox's reasons for taking a shower in another house, and inconsistencies in Sollecito's and Knox's description of what she did when she alledegly left the house; there is a contradiction between Sollecito's alibi and his computer records. And, there are also elements of a very strange and unexplained behaviour of Knox that is rather consistent with Quintavalle describing her unusualy looking for something in the detergents area: Knox tells a story where she carries a mop and a bucket from a hous to another across the town, for no credible reason. Now, I have never seen in my life anyone walking through the city carrying a bucket and a floor mop. Nobody does anything like that. Why would she tell a story like that that? I assume that if she tells this story, it's because she must have done something like that in the morning, and someone might have seen her doing it, and she knows that it would be something extremely suspicious.Quintavalle, to me comes across only as a further element of a system. He is one piece of evidence not to be taken alone, but itogether with the whole set of pieces of evidence that undermine Knox's account of the night and morning.

It's easy to declare that there are all these "inconsistencies" and then fail to actually state what they are. It takes much longer to refute them because the evidence has to be found and then explained. To address all of them would take quite some time, so I'm going to respond to the highlighted section.

First of all, Knox never said she carried a mop and bucket to Sollecito's. She took only the mop. Nor was it across town; it's a few minutes walk, approximately 5-6 minutes. Just because you have not seen someone carrying a mop is not evidence Knox did not do that. What is evidence is that the mop was tested for blood and it was negative. But what is really illogical about your conjecture is that there was no reason, connected to the murder, for Knox to take the mop to Sollecito's. Any clean up connected to the murder would take place at the cottage where the mop already was. For what reason, connected to the murder, would Knox need the mop at Sollecito's?
 
Indeed jurisprudence has a lot of middle ground, but when it comes to witnesses, basically what is seen as "middle ground" is considered as belonging to the category of what is "reliable". Normally a judge is not called to decide on the reliability or unreliability of a person, but rather on the reliability or unreliability of a testimony. If there is a reason to suspect dishonesty of a person that may have to do with the specific topic of deposition, that has influence on reliability of the testimony.
So the bottom line is that a judge has to decide whether a testimony is reliable or not.
Being mistaken, misremembering, are obvious possibilities - that comes out anyway usually in general terms, when a person in good faith misremembers or is inaccurate or is mistaken, sometimes clues of that could be found in the testimony. All that belongs to the realm of inaccuracy, it's expressed in terms of accuracy rather than in terms of "reliability", but basically it's the same principle. There may be a margin of error or risk in testimonies and that's a very delicate issue, that's why some testimonies may be seen as pieces of circumstantial evidence that may work only if there are other pieces of circumstntial evidence in order to have a sufficient mass of evidence. The existence of further evidence reduces the margin of risk: this is the concept of trial based on circumstantial evidence.

There is a lot of scientific research on eyewitness testimony and identification. It is abundantly clear that testimony given a year later after all the information in the papers is intrinsically unreliable. This is a scientific fact. People do not have reliable memories for a transient contact of no significance at the time a year later. In the UK the judge has to caution jurors about the unreliability of eyewitness identification. This is why great care is taken that identification is done with e.g. photographic line ups where witnesses are warned the suspect may not be present in the line up. The most unreliable identification is the one carried out here where the witness is asked (to paraphrase) "Is the guilty person the accused?" . Eye witness testimony must be obtained as soon as possible, it must be obtained in a neutral fashion, using open ended questions, and witnesses must be warned not to discuss their testimony with anyone prior to appearing in court. Quintavale's testimony would be laughed out of a court with knowledge of the science of eyewitness identification.
 
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But this was precisely an objection by Galati appeal against Hellmann: there is no legal category such as a "weak piece of circumstantial evidence"; either something is a piece of circumstantial evidence, or it isn't. Either it is relevant, or it isn't. We have reliability and relevance as dimentions. In fact, to say something would be "weak" even if it was true, that means to dismiss it preliminarily as irrelevant, and Hellmann in fact defines it "di per sé solo non idoneo a provare neanche presuntivamente la colpevolezza".
But this is illogical, because in reality, if true, the testimony would undermine Knox's account and entail further indication of cleanup.
Chieffi is right on this. Hellmann here is guilt of falsifying the rationale. It is just false that the testimony because of its nature, independently from reliability, would be unfit as a piece of circumstantial evidence. And then he calls Quintavalle's testimony "not much reliable" (what does "not much reliable" mean?).
The ambiguous slippery language of Hellmann is actually the suspicious thing, I can see a judge detects that immediately, as I detect it too.



This sums up what I said. In fact Hellmann notes that Quintavalle's testimony is "late", and links his being "late" with a concept of unreliability by speculating that he took a long time to develop a reliable memory. In other words Hellmann injects a suspicious content in his "being late", and he does so also by presenting a false description of Quintavalle's behaviour - which does not belong to trial papers -and drawing illogical conclusions from it.
Litarally Hellmann says "It took a year to the witness to become sure about the correctness of his perception and about the identification with Knox".

If the judges applied Hellmann's logic (speculation) in other cases, they would have never solved the Aldrovandi case, for example. Quintavalle acted exactly the same way as reliable witnesses do. Witnesses don't want to testify - they don't want to provide relevant details. Quintavalle is no exception. And he explicitly admitted to that. Mignini said in the courtroom "we all know why a witness talks only one year late". It's normal there is nothing suspicious in that.

But Hellmann's speculation is in fact, his own speculation. It is not true that it took Quintavalle one year to become sure about his perception - facts are that it took a year for him to talk. Hellmann only makes unsupported suppositions stemming from his own speculations "he could have realized the importance of his testimony earlier".



It is not true. Quintavalle was questioned at lenght and he said he clearly recognized Amanda Knox and could see her in the face. His testimony was not ambiguous.



No, by the way the fact is Hellmann never questioned Quintavalle. He could have done so, if he suspected Quintavalle was unreliable. There is a procedure point here, first thing, which makes Hellmann unreliable. This is another thing that makes Hellmann himself suspicious.

But then, first it is not true that Chieffi buys Quintavalle's testimony - Chieffi slams Hellmann for not addressing it. The SC does not re-interpret the testimony. The SC reads the arguments that Hellmann brings up to disprove the previous court's assessment of Quintavalle's testimony, and finds that in Hellmann there is a misrepresentation of the testimony itself.

And also, the Prosecution General was able to point out that Hellmann misrepresents the testimony of Quintavalle and his behaviour, since in fact Quintavalle had provided a convincing explanation about why he didn't mention certain things to Volturno, and inspector Volturno confirmed his version. There is in fact no logical basis to assert that Quintavalle is lying. Quintavalle did not tell everything to Volturno, but he limited himself to answering Volturno's questions. Any reasoning about colour of the eyes in the picture is pointless, since Quintavalle had no problem recognizing the girl in the picture. He said he knew the girl at sight. He only did not say the girl had come into his shop on that early morning, but Volturno did not ask him when the girl came to his shop. Quintavalle decided to shut up on this circumstance but he talked about it with his employees.
It should be pointed out that Quintavalle's testimony is supported also by the testimony of his employee Chiriboga.



Chieffi does not re-interpret evidence. Chieffi only interprets Hellmann. Theoretically any judge could have still ruled that Quintavalle was an unreliable witness. But not based on the arguments presented by Hellmann.

The problem is you are illogical here.

Take the Luminol prints. You cannot deny that there is a possibility that a Luminol positive print may be due to blood or may be due to an alternative (false positive) mechanism. The question is how likely are the alternatives? This is the 'reliability' of the test. To deny the possibility of an alternative is to deny reality.

The next step is to assess the likelihood that the stains are due to blood or an alternative mechanism.

You (Machiavelli) are at least consistent with your view. You regard a Luminol positive print as most likely attributable to blood even if TMB negative; therefore you view the prints from Sollecito's car and flat as being attributable to blood.

I would argue there is a narrow spectrum that allows a positive Luminol result and a negative TMB. The lower limit for TMB (depending on the reference), is 1:10,000 dilution, for Luminol 1:100,000; the former equivalent to one drop of blood in a litre of water, not enough to be visibly blood stained. This is possible. However, the properties of blood suspensions make this unlikely. Particles like blood cells tend to concentrate at the edge of a drop due to surface tension. So you do not get even distribution of blood across a print as it dries. You get a concentration at the edge of a print. This is not seen here. It would seem unlikely that the same critical concentration that delivered a positive Luminol but negative TMB test was found not only in all the prints found at the second visit in the flat, but also the exact same concentration of blood in Sollecito's car and flat. It is excessively unlikely the same concentration was evenly distributed in all of these prints in multiple different locations.

As a second line of argument even if you believe the prints in the hall are made by Knox in dilute blood there is an entirely innocent explanation; that Knox contaminated here feet with highly dilute blood from the shower (note that this concentration would not be visibly bloody), she reported having the next day. So it is not only unlikely that the prints were attributable to blood, but there is an entirely innocent explanation. This evidence is equally evidence supporting Knox's description of her actions the morning after the murder, supporting her testimony. It is as much evidence for innocence as guilt. It has no informational value.
 
Following up on Planigale's post above:

Reconstructing Memories
The uncritical acceptance of eyewitness accounts may stem from a popular misconception of how memory works. Many people believe that human memory works like a video recorder: the mind records events and then, on cue, plays back an exact replica of them. On the contrary, psychologists have found that memories are reconstructed rather than played back each time we recall them. The act of remembering, says eminent memory researcher and psychologist Elizabeth F. Loftus of the University of California, Irvine, is “more akin to putting puzzle pieces together than retrieving a video recording.” Even questioning by a lawyer can alter the witness’s testimony because fragments of the memory may unknowingly be combined with information provided by the questioner, leading to inaccurate recall.

Many researchers have created false memories in normal individuals; what is more, many of these subjects are certain that the memories are real. In one well-known study, Loftus and her colleague Jacqueline Pickrell gave subjects written accounts of four events, three of which they had actually experienced. The fourth story was fiction; it centered on the subject being lost in a mall or another public place when he or she was between four and six years old. A relative provided realistic details for the false story, such as a description of the mall at which the subject’s parents shopped. After reading each story, subjects were asked to write down what else they remembered about the incident or to indicate that they did not remember it at all. Remarkably about one third of the subjects reported partially or fully remembering the false event. In two follow-up interviews, 25 percent still claimed that they remembered the untrue story, a figure consistent with the findings of similar studies.
(Scientific American, "Why Science Tells Us Not to Rely on Eyewitness Accounts". Hal Arkowitz, Scott O. Lilienfeld on January 1, 2010)

I watched a documentary years ago on the unreliability of eyewitnesses. They staged a purse snatching in a park then interviewed the witnesses. It was amazing just how inaccurate they were. What I found the most interesting was the witnesses who changed their stories after a planted "witness" described seeing something that did not exist. This planted witness described the purse snatcher as wearing a red coat which was false. Several other witnesses then agreed that they had also seen him wearing a red coat. His coat was actually black.

Who knows what the reporter Fois said to Quintavalle that could have influenced what the store owner "remembered" a year later. We know that Fois urged him to go to the police because it was important that Quintavalle thought he saw Amanda the morning of Nov 2. From Quintavalle's court testimony:

ANSWER – I’ll tell you straight away. So, above my shop, actually the doorway is to the building just before my shop, there was a young man living there whom I know since he lives above me; being from Piazza Grimana I know almost everybody, so there was a young man, Antioco Fois, living there, and when he graduated, he got a job with the Giornale dell’Umbria newspaper. Now, he really is, let’s say I think 2 to 3 years… that is, not that it was a friendship, but I knew him, he was someone who often came to the shop. He had started to investigate what life on Corso Garibaldi was like, and we had exchanged a few confidences. One day he even started selling tissues to see how much someone doing this type of work at the traffic lights could earn, tissue handkerchiefs. And we had exchanged a couple of confidences like that. He often passed by and used to ask me: but do you know anything, have you seen something? Have you heard something? I hadn’t, but one day I said to him: Look, things being what they are, that morning I believe I saw… one day I told him I believed I saw Amanda. He said nothing, then he repeated it back to me: “I believe I saw Amanda”. One day he turned up and said to me: Listen but if you saw Amanda you should say so. I said to him: [138] I don’t think the fact that I saw her is significant, I said. Then all this enthusiasm about getting into this story, naturally, it wasn’t me who had it, just like I don’t have it now.

ANSWER – I wanted to finish. So he came back after a couple of days…

PRESIDENT – We’re speaking of Fois?

ANSWER – Of Antioco Fois. He came back to me and said to me: Listen, it’s important that you go tell this thing because of the fact that she has declared that she got up at 10 in the morning and it would be important for the investigation that you say this. I decided at that moment to say it. That’s all.

PRESIDENT – So you went?

ANSWER – So I went. And ended up here.”
 
Originally quoted by bagles:
Chieffi nitpicks on am ambiguous point in the testimony where Quintavalle claims he "never saw her head on" but later saw her "close" but still didn't say head on.

Originally quoted by Machiavelli:
It is not true. Quintavalle was questioned at lenght and he said he clearly recognized Amanda Knox and could see her in the face. His testimony was not ambiguous.

Quintavalle never said he saw Knox full face on, but only three-quarters:

QUESTION – Listen, you remembered the face of this young woman?

ANSWER – Yes.

QUESTION – The part you were able to see?

ANSWER – Yes.

QUESTION – You were able to see her eyes?

ANSWER – Yes, so then she entered, I saw her let’s say like this, three quarters left, three quarters of her left side. I didn’t see her face-on; when she entered, naturally I was standing here on the right between the glass window of the entrance, here’s the door that opens dividing in two, entering the right part of the doorway, she turned to her left side, here there’s a small display window and the counter. I was [135] in this position, between the front counter and the small display window, practically beside the door that was opening.
 
Clutch any good straws lately?

You might ask Mach. I was just clarifying exactly what Quintavalle said by providing his testimony. But I understand accuracy isn't for everyone.

By the way, still waiting for that FORENSIC EVIDENCE regarding Knox washing her hands. Just like I'm still waiting for Mach to produce that "abundant scientific literature" that TMB negative results don't mean blood
isn't present. But I'm beginning to think neither of you is going to present said evidence.
 
Great to see. Another speaking engagement for Amanda. This time for 1,250 lawyers at the Kentucky Bar Association convention.

Way to go Amanda!
 
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