Paul Bethke vs the 613 Mitzvot

[abaddon]

No commands can be rejected, as all commands have relevance.

Really? Why do you reject them?

But the law of a sanctified marriage take pre-eminence. So, when marriage was first instituted by the Creator between Adam and Eve, this was and is the only acceptance, anything else is adultery. So, all the commands pivot on this fact.

And back to the adultery obsession yet again.

 

[Paul Bethke]

Other then the stories in the Bible, and its derivative works (Koran, Book of Mormon) any evidence that Yahweh exists?

No evidence at all at this stage!

 

[Paul Bethke]

Really? Why do you reject them?


And back to the adultery obsession yet again.

How can I be obsessed with adultery when I expose it as the reason the Creator will judge this world as is written--Heb 13:4 Marriage should be honoured by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.

This is highlighted all through the Scriptures as being the reason for judgement, so naturally I must warn people and inform them of this great sin as it is in the Torah.

Exo 20:14 "You shall not commit adultery.
Exo 20:17 "You shall not covet your neighbour’s house. You shall not covet your neighbour’s wife

 

[Jodie]

Paul, I think the idea of service in the bible is misunderstood. Think of the creator as a human body and people as individual cells in the body. The cells work to service the body in different ways yet are a part of the body but acting autonomously. That's how our relationship to the creator is, we have individuality but we can't function independently. Now reread the bible with that thought in mind and you might have a better handle on what was meant rather than another human's interpretation based on a very limited view of the world, it will help with discernment.

 

[halleyscomet]

Paul, I think the idea of service in the bible is misunderstood. Think of the creator as a human body and people as individual cells in the body. The cells work to service the body in different ways yet are a part of the body but acting autonomously. That's how our relationship to the creator is, we have individuality but we can't function independently. Now reread the bible with that thought in mind and you might have a better handle on what was meant rather than another human's interpretation based on a very limited view of the world, it will help with discernment.

That's a very Fred Rogers view of the Bible and religion. I mean that as a compliment of the highest order.

What you describe has us reaching out to each other to support and cooperate, the exact opposite of the purges and genocide Paul Bethke advocates.

 

[Zivan]

The testimony of one man like Muhammad and Smith cannot be accepted—it must be at least two or more.

Where are YOUR two witnesses?

The Torah is my witness

The torah is not a man. You need human witnesses. Mohammad and Joseph Smith had human witnesses. You have NONE.

How completely and utterly wrong you are again, even to the pint of unfair statements—you have lied about my association with the Torah.

No, he is not wrong or lying. What he says can be verified by what YOU have written, as a public record.

......you do not understand prophecy, neither do you understand what you are reading when you read the original languages.

Here we go again......

No commands can be rejected, as all commands have relevance.

Then why do you reject them, except for the ones you cherry pick?

But the law of a sanctified marriage take pre-eminence. So, when marriage was first instituted by the Creator between Adam and Eve, this was and is the only acceptance, anything else is adultery.

More sex obsession. Again......

 

[Jodie]

That's a very Fred Rogers view of the Bible and religion. I mean that as a compliment of the highest order.

What you describe has us reaching out to each other to support and cooperate, the exact opposite of the purges and genocide Paul Bethke advocates.

Thank you. Genocide, wars, purges....that's man's ego but that isn't the overriding message that the Bible tries to get across about how we are supposed to function. I just wanted Paul to look at the message in a different way. There is a reason we take communion and why we celebrate being a part of the body of Christ. I hope Paul doesn't get hung up on the Old Testament forgetting what the essential message in the New Testament teaches us.

 

[Hercules56]

Forum member "Paul Bethke" maintains that modern Christians are required to adhere to a number of Old Testament laws that are ignored by modern Christians. To help us better understand his theology of works, he has graciously offered to answer questions about his adherence to the laws of the old Testament to allow us to better understand his unique faith.



The laws are generally summarized in the form of the "613 Mitzvot." Like the Ten Commandments, the exact content and order of this list can vary from denomination to denomination. In order to have a baseline for discussion we must first decide upon which version of the 613 Mitzvot we'll use. I propose one of three options.

1. The Topical list from jewfaq.org
   
2. The topical list by Maimonides as listed on Wikipedia
   
3. The chronological list by Maimonides as listed on Wikipedia

I've noticed a few verse errors on the chronological list on Wikipedia. Based upon earlier efforts to discuss this subject with "Paul Bethke" I think a topical listing would be preferable to a chronological one, as it will let us more easily answer large banks of questions from a smaller number of responses. To that end I propose we use The Topical list from jewfaq.org as it is well-researched and has a number of citations that I think will provide exciting staring points for more detailed discussion.

To that end, I ask "Paul Bethke" about the first of the Mitzvot as listed on JewFAQ:



This should be an easy one, but I'm a stickler for the details.

According to the Council of Jerusalem and the writings of Paul, Christians are required to only follow these rules:

-not to ingest blood or meat containing blood.

-not to ingest meat of animals that were inhumanely slaughtered.

-abstain from idolatry.

-abstain from fornication.

-not to allow women to teach them or have authority over them.


Christians are not required to follow any other rules, according to the New Testament.

 

[Paul Bethke]

Paul, I think the idea of service in the bible is misunderstood. Think of the creator as a human body and people as individual cells in the body. The cells work to service the body in different ways yet are a part of the body but acting autonomously. That's how our relationship to the creator is, we have individuality but we can't function independently. Now reread the bible with that thought in mind and you might have a better handle on what was meant rather than another human's interpretation based on a very limited view of the world, it will help with discernment.

It appears that you have read the complete Bible to come up with that conclusion.

What I SEE is that the Creator created us so as we could have fellowship with him and with each other in a way that the family unit is maintained. Marriage was instituted to allow people to have offspring and for a husband to love his wife, and for a wife to love her husband.

1 John_1:3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.

We are, as it is stated that we may reflect the image of God, being like the Creator is not being part of the Creator as a child is of a parent. Initially Adam was created from the earth, as were all other creatures—and not from the Creator.

Gen 2:7 the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

Gen 2:19 Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name.

So from dust to dust, our inevitable END.

But we SEE that from man, man comes through woman---
Genesis 5:1 This is the written account of Adam's line. When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God. He created them male and female and blessed them. And when they were created, he called them "man." When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth. After Seth was born, Adam lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters.

 

[Paul Bethke]

That's a very Fred Rogers view of the Bible and religion. I mean that as a compliment of the highest order.

What you describe has us reaching out to each other to support and cooperate, the exact opposite of the purges and genocide Paul Bethke advocates.

The twister speaks again--first you have twisted all that I say, not very noble.

Man commits genocide--Yahweh delivers justice. Justice is to destroy all who commit genocide.

 

[halleyscomet]

The twister speaks again--first you have twisted all that I say, not very noble.



Man commits genocide--Yahweh delivers justice. Justice is to destroy all who commit genocide.

Why do you keep dancing around the term "genocide" when it comes to the purging you want your version of a deity to do? Are you trying to minimize the fact you're calling for the divine slaughter of billions of people or is "genocide" yet ANOTHER word you've redefined in some way known only to you?

Genocide is genocide, even if a "deity" orders or commits it.

 

[Paul Bethke]

Where are YOUR two witnesses?

The torah is not a man. You need human witnesses. Mohammad and Joseph Smith had human witnesses. You have NONE.

No, he is not wrong or lying. What he says can be verified by what YOU have written, as a public record.

Here we go again......




Then why do you reject them, except for the ones you cherry pick?


More sex obsession. Again......

I am not obsessed with sex, but as I have stated, I am opposed to sexual immorality and divorce and remarriage as was Jesus. and the prophets.

Eze 22:9 In you are slanderous men bent on shedding blood; in you are those who eat at the mountain shrines and commit lewd acts.
Eze 22:10 In you are those who dishonour their fathers' bed; in you are those who violate women during their period, when they are ceremonially unclean.
Eze 22:11 In you one man commits a detestable offense with his neighbour’s wife, another shamefully defiles his daughter-in-law, and another violates his sister, his own father's daughter.

This is how Jesus saw it and this is as it is today---Mark_8:38 If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation

I do not reject any of the Commands that the Creator gave through his prophets---show me which one I reject.

The Torah is the testimony of the Creator which is my witness to what I have said—there are many people who testify that the Torah is a reliable source of knowledge that we have today in order to establish the Kingdom of Yahweh on earth.

These laws will bring about the peace that Isaiah spoke of.

Isaiah 65:24 Before they call I will answer; while they are still speaking I will hear. The wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox, but dust will be the serpent's food. They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain," says the LORD.

I standby what Jesus stated--Matthew 5:19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the Kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the Kingdom of heaven.
So you SEE, or maybe you do not SEE, I will be great because I teach the importance of the least to the greatest of the commands—why would I go against the injunction of Jesus???

Mat 22:37 Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'
Mat 22:38 This is the first and greatest commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
Mat 22:40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

 

[Paul Bethke]

Why do you keep dancing around the term "genocide" when it comes to the purging you want your version of a deity to do? Are you trying to minimize the fact you're calling for the divine slaughter of billions of people or is "genocide" yet ANOTHER word you've redefined in some way known only to you?

Genocide is genocide, even if a "deity" orders or commits it.

Genocide the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular nation or ethnic group.

The wrath of Yahweh is directed against genocide—it is people killing people for no other reason than to kill.

Yahweh is giving people the opportunity to repent, he is directing his wrath as he has stated against those who murder, rape, steal, and lie, who commit adultery and any other crime against humanity.

As the Creator he has the right to demand how his creation is run—in the past he left man to do his thing, but now because of the increasing wickedness he is going to intervene.

Act 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead."

The Scriptures show how God dealt with the wicked, and so he will deal with the wicked now.

 

[halleyscomet]

Genocide the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular nation or ethnic group.



The wrath of Yahweh is directed against genocide—it is people killing people for no other reason than to kill.



Yahweh is giving people the opportunity to repent, he is directing his wrath as he has stated against those who murder, rape, steal, and lie, who commit adultery and any other crime against humanity.



As the Creator he has the right to demand how his creation is run—in the past he left man to do his thing, but now because of the increasing wickedness he is going to intervene.



Act 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead."



The Scriptures show how God dealt with the wicked, and so he will deal with the wicked now.

Ahh, so you have a personal definition of "genocide" that has an "except when God does it" loophole. It's not unlike your personal definition of "virgin" that includes men who have sex only in the way you approve of.

Did you forget that we can all go back and read your past comments where you advocated that all black South Africans should be killed including the children because of "ancestor worship?"

You are calling for the slaughter of BILLIONS of people, entire civilizations wiped out. It doesn't matter what nonsensical personal terms you use. It's genocide, and no amount of tap dancing and word twisting will change that.

Embrace it. You're a white supremacist calling for the murder of people you deem "inferior." Dancing around who and what you are just makes you look wishy-washy.

 

[halleyscomet]

I am not obsessed with sex

BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

Right, and porn stars Candy Samples, Kelly Michaels, and Candy Apples are wilting virginal flowers who are often mocked for their prudery.

I do not reject any of the Commands that the Creator gave through his prophets---show me which one I reject.

The thread dedicated to exploring this topic has been inhibited by your flat out refusal to answer questions so there are still a LOT of unknowns, but here is a quick summary of what we know so far:
538 To be Determined
1 Unknown
0 N/A
13 Follows
32 Does not Follow
0 Does not Apply to Christians
2 Did not Answer
25 Does not apply to private citizens
0 Compliance implied but not explicitly stated
2 Do as I say, Don't do as I do

I'll omit the laws we know you don't follow because they they're directed at the operation of a government and not at private individuals.

laws you've been asked about but refused to answer
Gen. 1:28 — To have children with one's wife
Laws you say should be followed but refuse to answer if YOU follow them.
Ex. 20:15 — Not to covet and scheme to acquire another's possession — Yemenite->Ex. 20:14
Ex. 21:10 — Not to withhold food, clothing, and sexual relations from your wife

Laws we know you reject:
Gen. 32:32 — Not to eat the sinew of the thigh
4Ex. 12:6 — To slaughter the paschal sacrifice at the specified time
5Ex. 12:8 — To eat the Paschal Lamb with matzah and Marror on the night of the fourteenth of Nisan
6Ex. 12:9 — Not to eat the paschal meat raw or boiled
7Ex. 12:10 — Not to leave any meat from the paschal offering over until morning
8Ex. 12:15 — To destroy all chametz on 14th day of Nisan
9Ex. 12:18 — To eat matzah on the first night of Passover
10Ex. 12:19 — Not to find chametz in your domain seven days
11Ex. 12:20 — Not to eat mixtures containing chametz all seven days of Passover
12Ex. 12:43 — An apostate must not eat from it
13Ex. 12:45 — A permanent or temporary hired worker must not eat from it
14Ex. 12:46 — Not to take the paschal meat from the confines of the group
15Ex. 12:46 — Not to break any bones from the paschal offering —> Ps. 34:20
16Ex. 12:48 — An uncircumcised Kohen (priest) must not eat Terumah (heave offering)
17Ex. 12:48 — An uncircumcised male must not eat from it
18Ex. 13:3 — Not to eat chametz all seven days of Passover
19Ex. 13:7 — Not to see chametz in your domain seven days
20Ex. 13:8 — To relate the Exodus from Egypt on that night
21Ex. 13:12 — To set aside the firstborn animals
22Ex. 13:13 — To redeem the firstborn donkey by giving a lamb to a Kohen
23Ex. 13:13 — To break the neck of the donkey if the owner does not intend to redeem it
24Ex. 16:29 — Not to walk outside the city boundary on Shabbat
Ex. 20:7 — Not to take God's Name in vain — Yemenite->Ex. 20:6
Ex. 20:9 — To sanctify the day with Kiddush and Havdalah — Yemenite->Ex. 20:8
Ex. 20:11 — Not to do prohibited labor on the seventh day — Yemenite->Ex. 20:10
Ex. 20:13 — Not to murder — Yemenite->Ex. 20:12
Lev. 12:3 — To circumcise all males on the eighth day after their birth
Num. 15:38 — To have tzitzit on four-cornered garments
Deut. 6:8 — To wear tefillin (phylacteries) on the head
Deut. 6:8 — To bind tefillin on the arm
Deut. 6:9 — To put a mezuzah on each door post

 

[halleyscomet]

Paul Bethke,

Slavery. Biblically permissible or not?

If it's permissible do you believe the New and Old Testament laws about slavery apply to modern slaves?

For example:

Ex. 21:8 — The master must not sell his maidservant

 

[Border Reiver]

Genocide the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular nation or ethnic group.


<snip>

The Scriptures show how God dealt with the wicked, and so he will deal with the wicked now.

Scriptures show that Yahweh routinely carried out, or ordered to be carried out in his name, genocide. Revelations indicates that he will kill 1/3 of the people of the world. Face it, the only reason you are giving Yahweh the Bloody a pass is because he is the head of your preferred pantheon.

 

[Jodie]

It appears that you have read the complete Bible to come up with that conclusion.

What I SEE is that the Creator created us so as we could have fellowship with him and with each other in a way that the family unit is maintained. Marriage was instituted to allow people to have offspring and for a husband to love his wife, and for a wife to love her husband.

1 John_1:3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.

How do you define fellowship? I use that term when talking about a group of equals, or a relationship of equality.

We are, as it is stated that we may reflect the image of God, being like the Creator is not being part of the Creator as a child is of a parent. Initially Adam was created from the earth, as were all other creatures—and not from the Creator.

This is referring to our spiritual state. We are a reflection of the whole in a materialistic human form but we are not spiritually separate from the creator, much like a holographic image.

Gen 2:7 the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

The Hebrew word for spirit is Rauch, which means air in motion. The Greek word for spirit is Pneuma which also literally means a current of air. Something gets lost in translation with our English word spirit. The analogy of breath to spirit is used throughout the bible even when it refers to creation when the creator speaks. One must use breath to speak, the creator literally breathed life into creation. So the breath of life is the spirit, the part of the creator, that animates the human form. We are like spiritual extensions of the creator.

Gen 2:19 Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name.

So from dust to dust, our inevitable END.

Of the human form, the "breath of life", or the spirit continues on since it is an extension of the creator. The human form is limited to a materialistic existence but our spirit isn't confined in such a way.

But we SEE that from man, man comes through woman---
Genesis 5:1 This is the written account of Adam's line. When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God. He created them male and female and blessed them. And when they were created, he called them "man." When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth. After Seth was born, Adam lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters.

Reproduction is the mechanism for which the creator manifests itself in this world.

Isaiah 5:20-21: “Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!”

Do not pervert what creation intended by applying materialistic cultural perceptions onto the message.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

Genocide the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular nation or ethnic group.

Which is exactly what your god is going to do.

The wrath of Yahweh is directed against genocide—it is people killing people for no other reason than to kill.

The definition of genocide does not include any reason for the killing, and, frankly, it really doesn't make any difference. Killing large numbers of people without mercy or compassion is wrong, no matter how you justify it.

Yahweh is giving people the opportunity to repent, he is directing his wrath as he has stated against those who murder, rape, steal, and lie, who commit adultery and any other crime against humanity.

But, as we have seen before, your god is going to kill an arbitrary number of people, enslave more, and devastate the earth to boot. Repentance, at this stage, is basically irrelevant because, even if people repent, they will still be living in a hell-hole.

As the Creator he has the right to demand how his creation is run—in the past he left man to do his thing, but now because of the increasing wickedness he is going to intervene.

Was there a secret codicil to the doctrine of free will, of which only you are aware?

Act 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead."

And when exactly is this day, Paul? Any ideas yet?

The Scriptures show how God dealt with the wicked, and so he will deal with the wicked now.

The Scriptures also show lots more things your god is supposed to have done in the past, that he no longer does. Strange how, with the advance of education, scientific knowledge, and recording devices, the number of instances of miracles, apparitions, appearances and the like has plummeted.
God appeared in person a number of times, even going so far as to show Moses his arse, and yet he seems unable to repeat these feats nowadays.
Most peculiar....

 

[Zivan]

Where are YOUR two witnesses

I am not obsessed with sex, but as I have stated, I am opposed to sexual immorality and divorce and remarriage as was Jesus. and the prophets.

Eze 22:9 In you are slanderous men bent on shedding blood; in you are those who eat at the mountain shrines and commit lewd acts.
Eze 22:10 In you are those who dishonour their fathers' bed; in you are those who violate women during their period, when they are ceremonially unclean.
Eze 22:11 In you one man commits a detestable offense with his neighbour’s wife, another shamefully defiles his daughter-in-law, and another violates his sister, his own father's daughter.

This is how Jesus saw it and this is as it is today---Mark_8:38 If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation

I do not reject any of the Commands that the Creator gave through his prophets---show me which one I reject.

The Torah is the testimony of the Creator which is my witness to what I have said—there are many people who testify that the Torah is a reliable source of knowledge that we have today in order to establish the Kingdom of Yahweh on earth.

These laws will bring about the peace that Isaiah spoke of.

Isaiah 65:24 Before they call I will answer; while they are still speaking I will hear. The wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox, but dust will be the serpent's food. They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain," says the LORD.

I standby what Jesus stated--Matthew 5:19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the Kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the Kingdom of heaven.
So you SEE, or maybe you do not SEE, I will be great because I teach the importance of the least to the greatest of the commands—why would I go against the injunction of Jesus???

Mat 22:37 Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'
Mat 22:38 This is the first and greatest commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
Mat 22:40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

WHERE. ARE. YOUR. TWO. WITNESSES. ????????