Paul Bethke vs the 613 Mitzvot

[halleyscomet]

You are wrong the Torah came long before the Koran—I refer to the Decalogue in Exodus—but you knew that.

You write that as if it were relevant. It is not. We are commenting on the nature of the theology you claim to espouse. Babbling about timelines does nothing to address the fact that your stated theology has more in common with extremist Islam than anything else. It's clear that you are using the term "Mitzvot" not to refer to the 613 laws described in Jewish scripture, but to refer to a cribbed and truncated version of Islamic laws derived from the Koran. Cleary, Mitzvot is yet another word, like "virgin,", that you have chosen to reinterpret with your own unique meaning that's unrelated to rest of the world.

Countering this observation can't be done by yammering about timelines. Every time you fail to answer one of the questions we've asked about the Jewish Mitzvot you reinforce the idea that you are in fact not talking about the Mitzvot as understood by Jewish Rabbis but using it as a shorthand for a vague concept you are either unwilling or unable to elaborate on.

 

[JayUtah]

You are wrong the Torah came long before the Koran—I refer to the Decalogue in Exodus—but you knew that.

As of this writing in 2017, both the Torah and the Koran have been available for many centuries, and either can be said to shape your thinking -- consciously or unconsciously. While you refer to the Torah (to a fault), your approach in interpreting it is very much unlike almost all others who express a belief in it. Your approach in interpreting the Torah bears a defensible relationship to the way extremists in Islam interpret the Koran. You take a cafeteria approach to the Torah in the same way radical Muslims take a cafeteria approach to the Koran. You advocate for a Christian holy war using the same rhetoric as Islamic extremists advocate for an Islamic holy war. You adopt private definitions for concepts that others have a different consensus on, just as Islamic jihadists do in their particular milieu.

You may not like this comparison, but too bad. It fits. And maybe that should be telling you something. If your preaching is distinguished from jihadism only by the name of the deity you profess, you should perhaps reevaluate your approach.

 

[Craig B]

You SEE people are categorised by what is written in the Torah, which enables us to understand what the Creator approves of and what the Creator detests.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OE1lMiJwKvE

You SEE you can disregard the injunctions in the Torah, but then you exclude yourself from entering into the Covenant.

I mean that you decry Chinese and Black people for their non-Kosher diet, but most White people equally don't follow the rules laid down in the Torah.

 

[Paul Bethke]

As of this writing in 2017, both the Torah and the Koran have been available for many centuries, and either can be said to shape your thinking -- consciously or unconsciously. While you refer to the Torah (to a fault), your approach in interpreting it is very much unlike almost all others who express a belief in it. Your approach in interpreting the Torah bears a defensible relationship to the way extremists in Islam interpret the Koran. You take a cafeteria approach to the Torah in the same way radical Muslims take a cafeteria approach to the Koran. You advocate for a Christian holy war using the same rhetoric as Islamic extremists advocate for an Islamic holy war. You adopt private definitions for concepts that others have a different consensus on, just as Islamic jihadists do in their particular milieu.

You may not like this comparison, but too bad. It fits. And maybe that should be telling you something. If your preaching is distinguished from jihadism only by the name of the deity you profess, you should perhaps reevaluate your approach.

Before you were wrong—now you are ridiculously wrong---I have been referring the Scriptures not the Koran.

The message of Christ is vastly different to that of the Koran---the Creator is wanting to establish a Kingdom where there will be no violence, and the means by which it will be done is the utilization of past events as recorded in the Tanakh.

Islam came 600 years after the resurrection of Jesus and has plagiarised much of its content. Allah and Yahweh are not the same persons.

The Creator already gave an account of himself in the Tanakh, so there is no need to give a different account nearly 4000 years later. But you knew all that, or did you??

 

[halleyscomet]

Disturbingly enough, Paul Bethke is not as alone in his sexual ideology as we would like to believe.

‘You must marry your rapist’; 11-year-old girl in Florida lives in nightmare

 

[Paul Bethke]

I mean that you decry Chinese and Black people for their non-Kosher diet, but most White people equally don't follow the rules laid down in the Torah.

You are very correct—very few white people follow the injunctions in the Torah, that is why there are very few white Christians---because few follow the teachings of the Christ.

 

[Paul Bethke]

Disturbingly enough, Paul Bethke is not as alone in his sexual ideology as we would like to believe.

‘You must marry your rapist’; 11-year-old girl in Florida lives in nightmare

But you are wrong--is not the law supposed to protect the girl, if man does not have laws to protect then the system is corrupt.
But again you are not able to comprehend the truth.

 

[halleyscomet]

But you are wrong--is not the law supposed to protect the girl, if man does not have laws to protect then the system is corrupt.

That's the point. The law allowed religious fanatic to force an 11-year-old girl to marry her rapist.

But again you are not able to comprehend the truth.

What "truth" am I supposedly missing here? Care to elaborate, you know, like a prophet would?

 

[Border Reiver]

But you are wrong--is not the law supposed to protect the girl, if man does not have laws to protect then the system is corrupt.
But again you are not able to comprehend the truth.

This is the logical outcome of Deuteronomy. In this case, the parents father consented, and the rapist was allowed to marry his victim, rather then face any law of God or man.

You can use this an opportunity to re-evaluate your blind acceptance of the "justice" found in laws of the Bible, or you can double down and find a way to excuse either the behaviour, the laws, or both.

 

[Craig B]

You are very correct—very few white people follow the injunctions in the Torah, that is why there are very few white Christians---because few follow the teachings of the Christ.

The ones who do follow the Torah are not usually Christians but Jews, as was Jesus also.

 

[abaddon]

You are wrong the Torah came long before the Koran—I refer to the Decalogue in Exodus—but you knew that.

Well there is the problem. According to your claims, I cannot tell that you are not an islamic jihadi.

All of your claims are consistent with islamic jihadism.

How may I tell the difference?

 

[Pooneil]

The message of Christ is vastly different to that of the Koran---the Creator is wanting to establish a Kingdom where there will be no violence

Interesting in that the OT/Hebrew Bible, is full of God caused, sanctioned or promulgated violence. If non-violence is what he wants, then why does he kill so many?

Islam came 600 years after the resurrection of Jesus and has plagiarised much of its content.

Much as christianity has "plagiarized" much of Jewish scriptural content and Roman stoicism. Your disdain for Islam is showing. A neutral wording would say the newer movement adapted and built upon firmly grounded older traditions.

That is pretty much the history of world religions.

Allah and Yahweh are not the same persons.

You think Allah exists and is a person?

 

[halleyscomet]

Before you were wrong—now you are ridiculously wrong---I have been referring the Scriptures not the Koran.

A technical quibble more than anything else, given the Jihadi extremism in the theology you derive from your source.

The message of Christ is vastly different to that of the Koran---the Creator is wanting to establish a Kingdom where there will be no violence, and the means by which it will be done is the utilization of past events as recorded in the Tanakh.

Both Islam and Christianity promise and eventual violence free idealized existence. It is you and the Jihadi extremists who see the path to this idealized environment as one bathed in the blood of infidels/heretics.

Islam came 600 years after the resurrection of Jesus and has plagiarised much of its content. Allah and Yahweh are not the same persons.

As has already been pointed out, Christianity did much the same thing to Judaism. It could be argued that Protestantism did much the same thing to the Roman Catholic church. What is your criteria for choosing one over the other? Your actual ideology is, as has been noted many times, far closer to the extremist offshoots of Islam than anything Christian or Jewish.

The Creator already gave an account of himself in the Tanakh, so there is no need to give a different account nearly 4000 years later. But you knew all that, or did you??

The central premise of Islam is that the surviving sculptures had become corrupted and Muhammed was needed to restore God's message. How is that fundamentally different from your frequent reinterpretation of scripture that is profoundly at odds with modern denominations? You argue that a sexually active man can be considered a "virgin." You argue that a passage about rape is actually about consensual sex. Muhammad rewrote the scriptures, whereas you seek to rewrite the interpretations. In both cases, the fundamental goal is to overthrow that which came before while claiming theological descent.

A major difference, of course, is that Muhammad was nowhere as bloodthirsty as you, and he was actually able to gather followers.

 

[JayUtah]

The central premise of Islam is that the surviving [scriptures] had become corrupted and Muhammed was needed to restore God's message.

Just as the central premise of Mormonism is that the surviving scriptures had become corrupted and Joseph Smith was needed to restore God's message. The restoration meme is hardly new in religion, let alone in Christianity. Every time we draw these comparisons, Bethke just gives us his standard circular reasoning. He's different from all the other restorationists because he's the true one.

 

[halleyscomet]

Just as the central premise of Mormonism is that the surviving scriptures had become corrupted and Joseph Smith was needed to restore God's message. The restoration meme is hardly new in religion, let alone in Christianity. Every time we draw these comparisons, Bethke just gives us his standard circular reasoning. He's different from all the other restorationists because he's the true one.

And there in the background is Zoroaster, shaking his fist at everyone but the Buddhists for plagiarizing him.

 

[Border Reiver]

And there in the background is Zoroaster, shaking his fist at everyone but the Buddhists for plagiarizing him.

I'm fairly certain that neither the Celts, Norse or Haida copied Zoroaster.

 

[Paul Bethke]

Just as the central premise of Mormonism is that the surviving scriptures had become corrupted and Joseph Smith was needed to restore God's message. The restoration meme is hardly new in religion, let alone in Christianity. Every time we draw these comparisons, Bethke just gives us his standard circular reasoning. He's different from all the other restorationists because he's the true one.

Originally Posted by halleyscomet
The central premise of Islam is that the surviving [scriptures] had become corrupted and Muhammed was needed to restore God's message.

Well that is not what the Jews believe—there will always be counterfeit claims to the truth of what the Creator Yahweh inspired his servants to preserve. The testimony of one man like Muhammad and Smith cannot be accepted—it must be at least two or more. The Tanakh has many witnesses. All referring to the Torah as the basis of prophecy.

Islam uses violent acts committed by adherents to its cause---BUT the Creator uses signs not accredited to man.

Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins
How many variations of "I can't, personally, conceive how life could have arisen spontaneously, therefore the only explanation is that God had to do it" have to continuously keep manifesting over the course of life, and continue to ignore/deny the baggage of information that actually explains this question? At what point does mankind, as a whole, grow the hell up out of this GodDaddy mentality?

It will not happen during this evolutionary stage of Homo Sapiens.

The Sky Daddies delusion is the product of a hyperactive child-like imagination and wishful thinking and child-like fear of the unknown and child-like need for love and support and comforting and child-like wish for vengeance and "justice" and protection against the meanies.

The real core of the problem is that people are willing to delude themselves and let others dupe them because mentally they are frightened pathetic wretched children. They are trembling lumps of insignificant debris floating on the waves of space-time trying to construe by any self-delusion a significance for their fleeting moment of existence punctuated by terror, and inexorable calamities.

Impotent to exact justice or to stem the currents and waves of time, they raise their arms up like children begging in supplication to an imagined sky daddy to lift them up and give them a comforting hug and to beat up the neighbouring children.

The major tragedy of course is that this infantile psychological condition was and is viciously and cynically and predatorily exploited by clever brigands and wily poltroons to huckster and bamboozle the quivering shivering sheep. Much like all the other shams, scams and hoaxes discovered or invented by numerous hoodwinkers and mountebanks throughout the ages and are still being utilized even today despite all available knowledge.

It is a humongous shame upon humanity that still even in the 21st century people are still willing to fool themselves with sky daddies.

But what is a bigger shame is that people who claim to be not deluded by any sky daddies are willing to defend the sky daddy delusions incessantly and indefatigably and belligerently and acerbically and to label people who demonstrate the preposterousness of it as insane and demented and psychologically damaged ex-altar boys who have a "thing" that prevents them from thinking rationally about the usefulness of the sky daddies they claim not to believe in.

In a Midrash there is a story about Abraham destroying some of the Idols his Father worshiped and then made it appear as if one of the unharmed idols did it. When the people questioned him while accusing him...he said that if they don't believe that the idols were able to do it or defend themselves then why do they worship them?

In the OT (1 Kings 18:22-40) there is a story about Elijah challenging the priests of Baal to a show of force between YHWH and BAAL.... obviously YHWH wins and Elijah (not YHWH for a change) massacres all 450 prophets of Baal and that is supposed to prove that Baal is not real.

Leumas made this statement, I am not sure when, but I kept it on record

I propose a similar challenge between all the religions of the world.

Let’s have the United Nations organize a WORLD WIDE invitation to the representatives of ALL the religions that care to participate… any that don’t are acknowledging defeat.

The representative are then allowed a month to pray and worship in the manner they want as prescribed in their scriptures/traditions and so forth.

After the month is out and they have expended all efforts to supplicate or arouse their gods to action they are to ask their respective gods to do the following.
On an appointed date chosen to have a good clear weather and to have a full moon at night… during the day and during the night local time where the UN building is (i.e. New York).

Whatever god is able to perform… if there are multiple gods then they have to either fight it out and the winner ALONE gets to perform… or … They agree to TIME SHARE and decide who gets to go first and then second etc….. or they can elect one of them to do the writing for all of them.

During the day ALL DAY … Must BLINK THE SUN using MORSE CODE … In ENGLISH… to spell out the name of the religion s/he/it endorses… if there are multiple gods that are participating then they have to coordinate and time share the sun so as to Morse code all their respective religions in succession… or they can fight each other and the winner alone does it.

During the night ALL NIGHT … Must BLINK THE MOON using MORSE CODE … In ENGLISH… to spell out the name of the religion s/he/it endorses… if there are multiple gods that are participating then they have to coordinate and time share the moon so as to Morse code their respective religions in succession… or they can fight each other and the winner alone does it.
ANY and ALL religions whose names are not listed then must concede that their gods are either non-existent or have just lost the competition and thus are lesser god.

If nothing happens then there are no gods or they do not care.

In any case… this will be televised and transmitted all around the world. All news agencies and the religious representatives sent to the UN can have their own satellite feed to wherever they want to transmit.

I think that any other details can be worked out in a preceding UN Conference.

Why doesn’t the world do something like this? We have the technology now to make this visible to ALL humans around the world… every human can see it and verify for himself or herself.
We also should have this event repeat every 25 years just in case this god dies or is subsequently defeated in a later god competition… if they would care to televise the fighting on a reality show called GODLY SURVIVOR that would be nice.

So this was what Yahweh did when he liberated the Hebrews, Yahweh provided the evidence that he was greater than any other deity.

Exo 9:16 But I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.

 

[Border Reiver]

Other then the stories in the Bible, and its derivative works (Koran, Book of Mormon) any evidence that Yahweh exists?

 

[JayUtah]

[T]here will always be counterfeit claims to the truth of what the Creator Yahweh inspired his servants to preserve.

And your indifference to the mitzvot, along with other things that we've discussed in your other thread, tell us that you're making a counterfeit claim. The Jews were told how to test a prophet, and you fail the test.

The testimony of one man like Muhammad and Smith cannot be accepted—it must be at least two or more.

Where are your others, then? All we have had for years regarding you is the solitary voice of one Paul Bethke, who makes outrageous unsupported claims such as being perfectly obedient to the classic mitzvot. On the other hand, if you want to be this picky, the Book of Mormon comes with affidavits by a number of witnesses who confirm what Smith said, even claiming also to have been visited by heavenly beings. Yet despite all that testimony, pious and rational people still find reasons to reject Mormonism.

You lack the outside perspective to your claims. You're examining them only within your belief framework, where you're already convinced you're a prophet and already convinced Yahweh is going to come down and reward you for what you're convinced is your "perfect" obedience. It's little different from the web of self-deception I wrote about in your other thread. Remember the story of the Mormon clergyman who convinced himself that since God obviously favored him it was okay to commit incest with members of his family? You can find similar stories from Islam, justifying heinous behavior and outrageous claims on the basis of a firm belief that they are about a higher purpose and that their god will forgive them any atrocity they commit along the way.

What your critics in this thread are trying to show you is that the objective evidence -- not your personal perspective -- shows that your claims fare no better than anyone else's. You are not "perfectly" obedient to the mitzvot, as you claim. You employ the same pick-and-choose cafeteria approach as most run-of-the-mill Christians. You've just managed to convince yourself that this is okay in your case because you're a prophet and that therefore whatever approach you take must therefore be endorsed by Yahweh.

 

[Paul Bethke]

And your indifference to the mitzvot, along with other things that we've discussed in your other thread, tell us that you're making a counterfeit claim. The Jews were told how to test a prophet, and you fail the test.

How completely and utterly wrong you are again, even to the pint of unfair statements—you have lied about my association with the Torah.

I have, as I have stated the highest reverence for the Torah, as Jesus stated. But that should not surprise me because you do not understand prophecy, neither do you understand what you are reading when you read the original languages. It is line upon line to you.

Where are your others, then? All we have had for years regarding you is the solitary voice of one Paul Bethke, who makes outrageous unsupported claims such as being perfectly obedient to the classic mitzvot. On the other hand, if you want to be this picky, the Book of Mormon comes with affidavits by a number of witnesses who confirm what Smith said, even claiming also to have been visited by heavenly beings. Yet despite all that testimony, pious and rational people still find reasons to reject Mormonism.

The Torah is my witness—others have their own word.

You lack the outside perspective to your claims. You're examining them only within your belief framework, where you're already convinced you're a prophet and already convinced Yahweh is going to come down and reward you for what you're convinced is your "perfect" obedience. It's little different from the web of self-deception I wrote about in your other thread. Remember the story of the Mormon clergyman who convinced himself that since God obviously favored him it was okay to commit incest with members of his family? You can find similar stories from Islam, justifying heinous behavior and outrageous claims on the basis of a firm belief that they are about a higher purpose and that their god will forgive them any atrocity they commit along the way.

There are many who have violated the Torah—the Torah is the testimony of the Creator, others have their own testimony, the teachings of Jesus are based upon the Torah, so people are gullible because they do not study the Torah—once a person studies the Torah, then all other Scripture can be understood, as all Scripture is based upon the knowledge of the Torah. This is prophetic!

What your critics in this thread are trying to show you is that the objective evidence -- not your personal perspective -- shows that your claims fare no better than anyone else's. You are not "perfectly" obedient to the mitzvot, as you claim. You employ the same pick-and-choose cafeteria approach as most run-of-the-mill Christians. You've just managed to convince yourself that this is okay in your case because you're a prophet and that therefore whatever approach you take must therefore be endorsed by Yahweh.

The commands that were given to Israel must be understood—the moral standard in the Ten Commands are for all, now a close scrutiny of the laws that were given to Israel can be applied to all people, but some laws can only be applied to Jews, and some commands can only be applied to Jews living in Israel.

No commands can be rejected, as all commands have relevance. But the law of a sanctified marriage take pre-eminence. So, when marriage was first instituted by the Creator between Adam and Eve, this was and is the only acceptance, anything else is adultery. So, all the commands pivot on this fact.

When this is understood the Torah can be properly understood—it will be understood why the Creator destroyed people, and it will be understood why the wrath of Yahweh will come upon the present world---all peoples will be judged according to the precepts of the Torah.

You SEE this is prophetic!!