Paul Bethke vs the 613 Mitzvot

[Paul Bethke]

It is so maddening!

He makes no sense, and then says everyone is stupid........

Well you of all people knows that there are many commands that can no longer be applied because of the Temple no longer being in existence—then there are commands specifically for those practicing Jews who live in the land of Israel. The feasts are a national event, as is the Sabbath.

http://www.chabad.org/library/artic...ny-of-the-Torahs-Commandments-Still-Apply.htm

To begin with the Focus is on the Ten Commands—these commands test the motives of the heart, they are of a physical nature. Do not lie, do not steal do not commit adultery, honour ones parents.

Marriage as I have emphasised is the focal point of all peoples –it is the purpose why the Creator created everything. The laws were given to make sure that a sanctified marriage was protected.

The dietary laws were to distinguish what meat may be consumed, and as such a person will always be aware of what foods were to be eaten. It is an association with the Creator.

In the world where we live many laws from the Torah are intertwined in the current law system.

When the Kingdom of the Creator is established then the world will become subject to the Laws that apply to Israel—until then people in different places have different juridical laws.

Many nations have laws that are in opposition to the moral laws that the Creator has decreed. The Torah will be used to highlight these laws that are paramount to the family.

So the Ten Commands can initially be applied to all people all over the world as a start, the other laws can be taught to supplement the Ten, starting with the dietary laws. But the dietary laws will have an effect on the economies of the world.

A pig farmer will be effected as will some fishing industries.

So what are we left with, other than to apply the juridical laws for crime—so the death penalty for murder rape and kidnapping will come into effect. Then there are those things that the Creator regards as detestable.

So the council in Jerusalem determined that the Gentile should initially be considered on the basis of the following--Act 15:19 "It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God.
Act 15:20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.
Act 15:21 For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."
So, they were still to consider the what Moses decreed on behalf of the Creator.

 

[Border Reiver]

Well you of all people knows that there are many commands that can no longer be applied because of the Temple no longer being in existence.

That's not going to fly. Yahweh commands that a Sanctuary be prepared for him, complete with an altar - He's not likely to accept your laziness as an excuse.

 

[Zivan]

PB, remember this?

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke

There are 613 commands—so which ones apply for a repentant person to follow?

You will have to go through each one individually to ascertain which ones are relevant---

Originally Posted by halleyscomet

Do you follow these Mitzvot?

Gen. 1:28 — To have children with one's wife

Ex. 20:21 — Not to make human forms even for decorative purposes — Yemenite->Ex. 20:20

Ex. 20:24 — Not to build the altar with stones hewn by metal — Yemenite->Ex. 20:23

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke

So why these three questions---there is no purpose in answering them!

PB, remember this?

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke

There are 613 commands—so which ones apply for a repentant person to follow?

You will have to go through each one individually to ascertain which ones are relevant---

So, you refuse to answer the question....

 

[halleyscomet]

Well you of all people knows that there are many commands that can no longer be applied because of the Temple no longer being in existence—then there are commands specifically for those practicing Jews who live in the land of Israel. The feasts are a national event, as is the Sabbath.



http://www.chabad.org/library/artic...ny-of-the-Torahs-Commandments-Still-Apply.htm



To begin with the Focus is on the Ten Commands—these commands test the motives of the heart, they are of a physical nature. Do not lie, do not steal do not commit adultery, honour ones parents.



Marriage as I have emphasised is the focal point of all peoples –it is the purpose why the Creator created everything. The laws were given to make sure that a sanctified marriage was protected.



The dietary laws were to distinguish what meat may be consumed, and as such a person will always be aware of what foods were to be eaten. It is an association with the Creator.



In the world where we live many laws from the Torah are intertwined in the current law system.



When the Kingdom of the Creator is established then the world will become subject to the Laws that apply to Israel—until then people in different places have different juridical laws.



Many nations have laws that are in opposition to the moral laws that the Creator has decreed. The Torah will be used to highlight these laws that are paramount to the family.



So the Ten Commands can initially be applied to all people all over the world as a start, the other laws can be taught to supplement the Ten, starting with the dietary laws. But the dietary laws will have an effect on the economies of the world.



A pig farmer will be effected as will some fishing industries.



So what are we left with, other than to apply the juridical laws for crime—so the death penalty for murder rape and kidnapping will come into effect. Then there are those things that the Creator regards as detestable.



So the council in Jerusalem determined that the Gentile should initially be considered on the basis of the following--Act 15:19 "It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God.

Act 15:20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.

Act 15:21 For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."


So, they were still to consider the what Moses decreed on behalf of the Creator.

None of that has anything to do with the Mitzvot I've been repeatedly asking you about.

At this point I doubt there is anyone on this forum who actually believes you give a withered fig tree about the Mitzvot. Your refusal to answer simple questions makes it clear to me that you just want an excuse to lord a "Holier than thou" attitude over others by claiming to follow the Old Testament laws most Christians deem obsolete. That attitude a prideful lie on your part, a false pretense based upon the hope that nobody will hold you accountable for your claims.

You are lying when you claim you believe modern Christians should follow the Mitzvot. You have proven this time and again starting from the moment I started this thread.

 

[halleyscomet]

PB, remember this?



So, you refuse to answer the question....

He's been afraid of being tied to specifics ever since he failed to kill the grass at the World Cup and blind James Randi. The extreme way he is exhibiting this fear has left him theologically paralyzed. He can no longer commit to anything he hasn't already explicitly claimed.

He claims to be a prophet yet is reduced to homilies on vengeance.

 

[Zivan]

None of that has anything to do with the Mitzvot I've been repeatedly asking you about.

And his entire post was a rambling rant from extreme ignorance.

What extreme arragance for him to start his post with "you should know....." and then follow with his ignorance.

My first thought when I read it was, "how dare you act so smug and arrogant!", ESPECIALLY since his entire post was nonsense.

At this point I doubt there is anyone on this forum who actually believes you give a withered fig tree about the Mitzvot. Your refusal to answer simple questions makes it clear to me that you just want an excuse to lord a "Holier than thou" attitude over others by claiming to follow the Old Testament laws most Christians deem obsolete. That attitude a prideful lie on your part, a false pretense based upon the hope that nobody will hold you accountable for your claims.

His "Holier than thou" attitude would be comical if it was not so maddening.

It is comical to picture him in Israel with his made up "knowledge" of what he thinks the "dietary laws" are. He would be completely lost.

You are lying when you claim you believe modern Christians should follow the Mitzvot. You have proven this time and again starting from the moment I started this thread.

And he continues to lie.......

 

[Paul Bethke]

None of that has anything to do with the Mitzvot I've been repeatedly asking you about.

At this point I doubt there is anyone on this forum who actually believes you give a withered fig tree about the Mitzvot. Your refusal to answer simple questions makes it clear to me that you just want an excuse to lord a "Holier than thou" attitude over others by claiming to follow the Old Testament laws most Christians deem obsolete. That attitude a prideful lie on your part, a false pretense based upon the hope that nobody will hold you accountable for your claims.

You are lying when you claim you believe modern Christians should follow the Mitzvot. You have proven this time and again starting from the moment I started this thread.

You miss the point—the Ten Commands were first given to the Jews as the basis of faith.

Then Creator gave additional laws for the Hebrews as a newly liberate nation to follow.

Consider the fact that the Hebrews had lived in Egypt for some 400 years, embracing the culture to some extent of their captors.

Now as a nation they had to adopt a new way of life, so the everyday issues of life had to be taught.
Now for any person who comes in contact with these laws will recognise them as everyday applications.

But there are still people who have not applied these laws for everyday living—so the Ten Commands are to become a way of life—the Torah as a whole will be the guiding factor of living.

So when the Hebrews came out of Egypt they needed a guide on how to live in such a way that the family would be protected as a whole.

So taking a parallel, the missionaries who went out to the tribes were to teach them how to live in a new way, closely related to the teachings in the Torah.

But most of all the Hebrews were to live in such a way that would permit them to live in fellowship with the Creator, and thus show the world they encountered how great the Creator is.

The festivals were time of celebrating their association with the Creator.

So today the Jews are no longer a light to the nations, because they no longer live by the standard of holiness that is required.

So what is required of the Gentiles who are converted—live by the Ten Commands and do not eat what is forbidden as specified in Leviticus. Much of the Torah is in our laws today.

Now Jesus confirms this when asked a question--The Rich Young Man
Mar 10:17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
Mar 10:18 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.
Mar 10:19 You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honour your father and mother.'"
Mar 10:20 "Teacher," he declared, "all these I have kept since I was a boy."
Mar 10:21 Jesus looked at him and loved him.

Does this not show how important the Ten Commands are—it does not nullify the Torah, but highlights the importance of the Ten Commands as being the crucial basis of faith—this is where everyone must start, and this is where everyone must END.

The Torah will always be the yardstick for all nations to be compared by.

The Chinese still eat dogs—Black Africans still eat monkeys and drink blood—people still have slaves—woman are still raped—people still have tattoos—children as still killed.

So you SEE the Torah will always be a means of identifying sin.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

Consider the fact that the Hebrews had lived in Egypt for some 400 years, embracing the culture to some extent of their captors.

This is not a fact.

The Chinese still eat dogs—Black Africans still eat monkeys and drink blood—people still have slaves—woman are still raped—people still have tattoos—children as still killed.

So you SEE the Torah will always be a means of identifying sin.

By that yardstick, your god is a sinner. He/she/it has killed millions of children, and has also made laws calling for more children to be killed. He/she/it has also said that keeping slaves is OK. Then there's the whole rape thing.....Apparently, gang rape is fine in the eyes of your god-monster.

Thank you for enabling us to identify your god as a sinner.
What's the next step?

 

[halleyscomet]

You miss the point—the Ten Commands were first given to the Jews as the basis of faith.



Then Creator gave additional laws for the Hebrews as a newly liberate nation to follow.



Consider the fact that the Hebrews had lived in Egypt for some 400 years, embracing the culture to some extent of their captors.



Now as a nation they had to adopt a new way of life, so the everyday issues of life had to be taught.

Now for any person who comes in contact with these laws will recognise them as everyday applications.



But there are still people who have not applied these laws for everyday living—so the Ten Commands are to become a way of life—the Torah as a whole will be the guiding factor of living.



So when the Hebrews came out of Egypt they needed a guide on how to live in such a way that the family would be protected as a whole.



So taking a parallel, the missionaries who went out to the tribes were to teach them how to live in a new way, closely related to the teachings in the Torah.



But most of all the Hebrews were to live in such a way that would permit them to live in fellowship with the Creator, and thus show the world they encountered how great the Creator is.



The festivals were time of celebrating their association with the Creator.



So today the Jews are no longer a light to the nations, because they no longer live by the standard of holiness that is required.



So what is required of the Gentiles who are converted—live by the Ten Commands and do not eat what is forbidden as specified in Leviticus. Much of the Torah is in our laws today.



Now Jesus confirms this when asked a question--The Rich Young Man

Mar 10:17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

Mar 10:18 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.

Mar 10:19 You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honour your father and mother.'"

Mar 10:20 "Teacher," he declared, "all these I have kept since I was a boy."

Mar 10:21 Jesus looked at him and loved him.



Does this not show how important the Ten Commands are—it does not nullify the Torah, but highlights the importance of the Ten Commands as being the crucial basis of faith—this is where everyone must start, and this is where everyone must END.



The Torah will always be the yardstick for all nations to be compared by.



The Chinese still eat dogs—Black Africans still eat monkeys and drink blood—people still have slaves—woman are still raped—people still have tattoos—children as still killed.



So you SEE the Torah will always be a means of identifying sin.

That's an awful lot of words to say nothing that actually advanced your point or constituted a rebuttal to the accusations that have been made against you. Have you considered a career in politics? Donald Trump has demonstrated quite forcefully that one can achieve the highest office in the land through sheer bluster.

I find it hilarious that you have essentially recanted your claims about the Mitzvot being relevant yet still, despite everything else you have written, insist you haven't. It's like Bill Clinton insisting he didn't have sex with "that woman."

Now you chase your tail, running in circles while insisting you're making progress towards some sort of goal.

 

[JayUtah]

You miss the point—the Ten Commands were first given to the Jews as the basis of faith.

Then Creator gave additional laws for the Hebrews as a newly liberate nation to follow.

Yes, and these are the 613 commandments you say you obey and which you say Christians are bound to obey. You told us in order to analyze that obedience we'd have to go through each of them individually. But when we try to do that, you run away and cling to the Ten Commandments, not the mitzvot. You're trying to simplify the problem down to the point where it fits your understanding instead of expanding your understanding to accommodate the nature of the problem. No, you don't get to excuse your ignorance of the mitzvot and the Torah by limiting your responsibility for debate to the few verses of the Decalogue.

 

[Zivan]

You miss the point—the Ten Commands were first given to the Jews as the basis of faith.

You, apparently, do not understand what the point even is.

Secondly, according to torah, the "Ten Commands"(sic) where given to ALL the israelites, NOT just to the tribe of judah.

Then Creator gave additional laws for the Hebrews as a newly liberate nation to follow.

And you have proven that you do not understand, or even know, what those laws are.

Consider the fact that the Hebrews had lived in Egypt for some 400 years, embracing the culture to some extent of their captors.

There was no big "Exodus" from egypt. Such a pity that you choose to remain ignorant of actual history. The Israelites were Canaanites, and Canaan was ruled by egypt through the period of the Egyptian New Kingdom, 16th - 11th cent. bce.

All of the canaanites, including the israelites, were "free" from egyptian rule after the collapse of the egyptian city state system in canaan, 12th - 11th cent. bce.

Now as a nation they had to adopt a new way of life, so the everyday issues of life had to be taught.

They already had laws for the "everyday issues of life". They added some additional laws (e.g. dietary) after the collapse of the egyptian city states in canaan, to distinguish themselves from other canaanites.

Now for any person who comes in contact with these laws will recognise them as everyday applications.

But you do not know what the laws are. Which is the point of the title of this thread.

But there are still people who have not applied these laws for everyday living—

Yes, for example, you. You do not even know what they are, while claiming to follow them. The dictionary says the word for this is called a "lie".

so the Ten Commands are to become a way of life—the Torah as a whole will be the guiding factor of living.

Except you do not know what the "guiding factor" is. You just make up your own rules/laws.

So when the Hebrews came out of Egypt they needed a guide on how to live in such a way that the family would be protected as a whole.

Once again, there was no "exodus". The egyptian city state system, IN Canaan, collapsed.

So taking a parallel, the missionaries who went out to the tribes were to teach them how to live in a new way, closely related to the teachings in the Torah.

What "missionaries"? What is it you are rambling about?

But most of all the Hebrews were to live in such a way that would permit them to live in fellowship with the Creator, and thus show the world they encountered how great the Creator is.

The hebrews were worshipping the canaanite gods. The head of the canaanite gods was El, also called Elyon. "Yahweh" was not one of the canaanite gods. He was imported later from Edom and was a Shasu god. Midian was in the same area as Edom. According to tanakh, it was in Midian where moses saw the "burning bush" and "yahweh" spoke to him. What a coincidence!

So "yahweh" was worshipped along with the canaanite gods, el/elyon, ba'al, asherah, etc. The goddess, Asherah, was the wife of El/Elyon, who was the head of all the elohim. Then "yahweh" and the god el/elyon were merged into one god, "yahweh"/el/elyon, and the goddess asherah became the wife of "yahweh".

The festivals were time of celebrating their association with the Creator.

No, they were agricultural festvals.

So today the Jews are no longer a light to the nations, because they no longer live by the standard of holiness that is required.

Thank tammuz! Coming from you, that is a great compliment.

It would be horrible for ANY people to live by your "standard of holiness" which, thank tammuz, is such a relief that you have no followers.

So what is required of the Gentiles who are converted—live by the Ten Commands and do not eat what is forbidden as specified in Leviticus. Much of the Torah is in our laws today.

Once again, you do NOT KNOW what the torah laws are.

<snip repetitive boring scripture dump>

Does this not show how important the Ten Commands are—it does not nullify the Torah, but highlights the importance of the Ten Commands as being the crucial basis of faith—this is where everyone must start, and this is where everyone must END.

Well, that is clear as mud. You say "it does not nullify the Torah" then say everyone must "start" and "END" with the "Ten Commands". So are you saying the other 603 mitzvot are ignored?

The Torah will always be the yardstick for all nations to be compared by.

No it is not. Other nations have their own laws and religions.

The Chinese still eat dogs—Black Africans still eat monkeys and drink blood—people still have slaves—woman are still raped—people still have tattoos—children as still killed.

There is NOTHING in the "Ten Commands" about food, or slaves, or rape, or tattoos.

Those are part of the 613 mitzvot which you say are "futile".

As far as children being killed, that is one of the most horrible, disgusting things imaginable that YOU think is "necessary" for the world to be "purged". Beyond disgusting.

So you SEE the Torah will always be a means of identifying sin.

How the hell can you "identify" what you do not know? You have proven you are ignorant of Torah. Thank asherah everyone can see how disgusting and ignorant your beliefs are, which is why you have no followers.

 

[halleyscomet]

Fun fact. Geldings are not allowed.

Not to castrate the male of any species; neither a man, nor a domestic or wild beast, nor a fowl (Lev. 22:24) (CCN143).

This animal husbandry tool is banned in the Mitzvot:


Paul Bethke, do you currently own or have you ever owned a castrated male animal? Remember that neutering an animal involves removal of the testicles, the sort of behavior banned in the Mitzvot above.

Paul Bethke, have you ever caused an animal to be castrated?

 

[Paul Bethke]

Fun fact. Geldings are not allowed.



This animal husbandry tool is banned in the Mitzvot:


Paul Bethke, do you currently own or have you ever owned a castrated male animal? Remember that neutering an animal involves removal of the testicles, the sort of behavior banned in the Mitzvot above.

Paul Bethke, have you ever caused an animal to be castrated?

If you read correctly this applies to an animal that will be sacrificed as an offering on behalf of a person, and later be given to the priests as food.

 

[Paul Bethke]

You, apparently, do not understand what the point even is.

Secondly, according to torah, the "Ten Commands"(sic) where given to ALL the israelites, NOT just to the tribe of judah.




And you have proven that you do not understand, or even know, what those laws are.



There was no big "Exodus" from egypt. Such a pity that you choose to remain ignorant of actual history. The Israelites were Canaanites, and Canaan was ruled by egypt through the period of the Egyptian New Kingdom, 16th - 11th cent. bce.

All of the canaanites, including the israelites, were "free" from egyptian rule after the collapse of the egyptian city state system in canaan, 12th - 11th cent. bce.



They already had laws for the "everyday issues of life". They added some additional laws (e.g. dietary) after the collapse of the egyptian city states in canaan, to distinguish themselves from other canaanites.



But you do not know what the laws are. Which is the point of the title of this thread.



Yes, for example, you. You do not even know what they are, while claiming to follow them. The dictionary says the word for this is called a "lie".



Except you do not know what the "guiding factor" is. You just make up your own rules/laws.



Once again, there was no "exodus". The egyptian city state system, IN Canaan, collapsed.



What "missionaries"? What is it you are rambling about?



The hebrews were worshipping the canaanite gods. The head of the canaanite gods was El, also called Elyon. "Yahweh" was not one of the canaanite gods. He was imported later from Edom and was a Shasu god. Midian was in the same area as Edom. According to tanakh, it was in Midian where moses saw the "burning bush" and "yahweh" spoke to him. What a coincidence!

So "yahweh" was worshipped along with the canaanite gods, el/elyon, ba'al, asherah, etc. The goddess, Asherah, was the wife of El/Elyon, who was the head of all the elohim. Then "yahweh" and the god el/elyon were merged into one god, "yahweh"/el/elyon, and the goddess asherah became the wife of "yahweh".



No, they were agricultural festvals.



Thank tammuz! Coming from you, that is a great compliment.

It would be horrible for ANY people to live by your "standard of holiness" which, thank tammuz, is such a relief that you have no followers.



Once again, you do NOT KNOW what the torah laws are.



Well, that is clear as mud. You say "it does not nullify the Torah" then say everyone must "start" and "END" with the "Ten Commands". So are you saying the other 603 mitzvot are ignored?



No it is not. Other nations have their own laws and religions.



There is NOTHING in the "Ten Commands" about food, or slaves, or rape, or tattoos.

Those are part of the 613 mitzvot which you say are "futile".

As far as children being killed, that is one of the most horrible, disgusting things imaginable that YOU think is "necessary" for the world to be "purged". Beyond disgusting.



How the hell can you "identify" what you do not know? You have proven you are ignorant of Torah. Thank asherah everyone can see how disgusting and ignorant your beliefs are, which is why you have no followers.

Interesting but you miss the point---the Hebrews were enslaved in Egypt, and had no laws to guide them in becoming holy (acceptable to the Creator) the laws were given to separate the Hebrews from the customs and cultures of all the other peoples.

So on the exodus they were presented with the Ten Commands as the basis of becoming holy (separated unto Yahweh) further laws were given, so as a nation they could function in a way that protected the family structure.

Some of these laws stipulated how Yahweh was to be worshiped, not as the other nations worshiped their deities.

There were laws to deal with every situation that the newly liberated Hebrews would encounter.
These laws were as stated to make Israel holy.
1) Exo_19:6 you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites."
2) Exo_22:31 "You are to be my holy people. So do not eat the meat of an animal torn by wild beasts; throw it to the dogs.
3) Exo_31:13 "Say to the Israelites, 'You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the LORD, who makes you holy.
4) Lev_10:10 You must distinguish between the holy and the common, between the unclean and the clean,
5) Lev_11:44 I am the LORD your God; consecrate yourselves and be holy, because I am holy. Do not make yourselves unclean by any creature that moves about on the ground.
6) Lev_19:2 "Speak to the entire assembly of Israel and say to them: 'Be holy because I, the LORD your God, am holy.
7) Lev_22:9 "'The priests are to keep my requirements so that they do not become guilty and die for treating them with contempt. I am the LORD, who makes them holy.
8) Lev_22:32 Do not profane my holy name. I must be acknowledged as holy by the Israelites. I am the LORD, who makes you holy
9) Deu_7:6 For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession.
10) Deu_28:9 The LORD will establish you as his holy people, as he promised you on oath, if you keep the commands of the LORD your God and walk in his ways.

So the Creator chose Abraham and his descendance to establish a holy people that would represent him in this world.

So now through Israel we Gentiles also have access to approach this HOLY Creator—but the same laws have application in making us separate from all other peoples.

But above all the marriage Covenant is cardinal to becoming holy---divorce defiles a person when they marry another person, other than the first person they entered into a covenant with.

Mal 2:13 Another thing you do: You flood the LORD's altar with tears. You weep and wail because he no longer pays attention to your offerings or accepts them with pleasure from your hands.
Mal 2:14 You ask, "Why?" It is because the LORD is acting as the witness between you and the wife of your youth, because you have broken faith with her, though she is your partner, the wife of your marriage covenant.

Malachi. 2:15 Has not the LORD made them one? In flesh and spirit they are his. And why one? Because he was seeking godly offspring. So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith with the wife of your youth.
Mal 2:16 "I hate divorce," says the LORD God of Israel, "and I hate a man's covering himself with violence as well as with his garment," says the LORD Almighty. So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith.

 

[halleyscomet]

If you read correctly this applies to an animal that will be sacrificed as an offering on behalf of a person, and later be given to the priests as food.

That's right ladies and gentlemen. I had to seed a deliberately flawed question involving video of a horse being castrated to get Paul Bethke to actually answer a question about the Mitzvot.

When testicles are involved Paul actually gives an answer.

Also note this highlights the importance of context, something Paul Bethke often ignores. The surrounding verses can radically alter the meaning of the quoted passage.

 

[JayUtah]

Interesting but you miss the point---

No, she doesn't. And the rest of your post is just the same pat sermon claiming "It's all about the ten commandments," so I'll ignore it. It's been answered sufficiently. The point you're missing is that you seem to have this third-grade formulation of what the Hebrew law is. You claim to obey all of it, but you don't really know what it is, how it was traditionally obeyed, how it was brought about and shaped by history, and all the other things that would ordinarily have to go into a claim of perfect obedience to it. You think you do, but you don't.

Moreover, you give the same excuses that all cafeteria Christians give for why certain of the mitzvot shouldn't be in force, and they don't have much to do with the missing temple. Your version of the elder law is, with few exceptions, the fanciful one Christians are taught early in Sunday school. You don't have some great new insight on it. You just offer up the same caricature of it that practically every Christian sect does, and then try to claim you're so much better obedient than all those other Christians. You don't really know what the mitzvot are, which I suppose is why you won't talk about them individually as you said we had to do in order to fully understand your teachings. Turns out, all you've done is reattach a pidgin version of kosher diet to it. That doth not a prophet make.

 

[halleyscomet]

You don't really know what the mitzvot are, which I suppose is why you won't talk about them individually as you said we had to do in order to fully understand your teachings. Turns out, all you've done is reattach a pidgin version of kosher diet to it. That doth not a prophet make.

And yet he claims a perfect understanding of scripture, despite clearly having no real clue what it contains. It took a horse castration video to get him to read the context of a verse. I feel kinda dirty for using that trick, but the fact that it took that much to get him to read and respond to a Mitzvot in a thread he willingly participates in that's ABOUT his adherence to the Mitzvot is pretty damning in and of itself.

 

[Border Reiver]

And yet he claims a perfect understanding of scripture, despite clearly having no real clue what it contains. It took a horse castration video to get him to read the context of a verse. I feel kinda dirty for using that trick, but the fact that it took that much to get him to read and respond to a Mitzvot in a thread he willingly participates in that's ABOUT his adherence to the Mitzvot is pretty damning in and of itself.

What will it take for him to answer whether or not he been circumcised or his male children have been?

 

[halleyscomet]

What will it take for him to answer whether or not he been circumcised or his male children have been?

Paul Bethke has argued that circumcision is an external sign of obedience that he believes is no longer necessary. The question of if HE is circumcised is irrelevant at that point. I would further argue that the status of his sons, should he have any, is also irrelevant. He has admitted that his ideas are changing. There's no reason he couldn't have thought circumcision important or necessary when his children were born and later changed his mind.

This, however, takes us to another question:

Deuteronomy 23:1
He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD.

We are talking about a man who has bragged that he will accomplish what his deity could not and that his deity needs him to act in this world. If he extends his "logic" then being a member of his family could be construed as being in the congregation or assembly of "the Lord." It's possible he was so cagey about if his sons were circumcised because he once HAD a son, but, after an accident or medical procedure, decided that child was no longer his son.

Paul Bethke, have you ever disowned one of your children, either adopted or biological, on religious grounds?

If so, what were they?

 

[Paul Bethke]

Paul Bethke has argued that circumcision is an external sign of obedience that he believes is no longer necessary. The question of if HE is circumcised is irrelevant at that point. I would further argue that the status of his sons, should he have any, is also irrelevant. He has admitted that his ideas are changing. There's no reason he couldn't have thought circumcision important or necessary when his children were born and later changed his mind.

This, however, takes us to another question:



We are talking about a man who has bragged that he will accomplish what his deity could not and that his deity needs him to act in this world. If he extends his "logic" then being a member of his family could be construed as being in the congregation or assembly of "the Lord." It's possible he was so cagey about if his sons were circumcised because he once HAD a son, but, after an accident or medical procedure, decided that child was no longer his son.

Paul Bethke, have you ever disowned one of your children, either adopted or biological, on religious grounds?

If so, what were they?

Comet why, your persistence in certain questions relevant to me—so why must I answer them from a personal point of view.

What is important is a sanctified marriage—the laws that dictate our lives are the current laws in society---the laws that dictate the lives of Jews are relevant to their faith—but all laws have no value if there is no sanctified marriage.

And if a country do not have laws related to the laws in the Torah, they will have to review those laws when the Kingdom of Yahweh is established.

So what is germane to the acceptance in the meantime is a sanctified marriage and the abstinence of food as stipulated in Leviticus. The law in Torah will be a means to identify sin. Such as---contacting the dead(presumably) abortion, gay marriages, and anything contrary to the Torah.

Circumcision will apply to those who want to become Jews, but for those who want to be converted to the faith in Jesus will be required to be baptised—even Jews who convert to the faith in Christ will be required to be baptised, but they must continue in the Circumcision ritual.

So practically what will circumcision benefit a person if they do not impose on themselves the dictates of the Ten Commands? The Ten Commands are the foundation of the faith—the Torah is how to live on this foundation.