Paul Bethke vs the 613 Mitzvot

[Paul Bethke]

Except, of course, in those cases - patriarchs reportedly held in esteem by their "creator" - who had multiple wives. And more than a few concubines into the bargain.

But then there is always what was decreed in the beginning—Jesus reintroduced the decree, so now his word is final on the matter as he stated---John_12:48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.

Again—

John_17:8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me.

So what Jesus states is that the words he spoke came from the Creator, so the Creator through what Jesus decreed, was now establishing his eternal will for humanity.

The problem occurs when men listen to an alternative to what Yahweh commands—as in the beginning.

Gen_3:17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,' "Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life.

Gen 16:3 So after Abram had been living in Canaan ten years, Sarai his wife took her Egyptian maidservant Hagar and gave her to her husband to be his wife.

So Abraham submitted to his wife’s suggestion.

So what is obvious that many people ignored the commands of Yahweh, and so we have a record of how the Creator used imperfect people to carry out his will.

Like king Saul, who started off good, but became evil---many men started off good and became evil.

So now Jesus stared off Good and remained good, and accomplished the purpose for which he came.--- John_17:4 I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do.

So now good men can carry on the work that Jesus instituted---but where do good men come from is still the task at hand.

 

[halleyscomet]

But then there is always what was decreed in the beginning—Jesus reintroduced the decree, so now his word is final on the matter as he stated---John_12:48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.

Again—

John_17:8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me.

So what Jesus states is that the words he spoke came from the Creator, so the Creator through what Jesus decreed, was now establishing his eternal will for humanity.

The problem occurs when men listen to an alternative to what Yahweh commands—as in the beginning.

Gen_3:17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,' "Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life.

Gen 16:3 So after Abram had been living in Canaan ten years, Sarai his wife took her Egyptian maidservant Hagar and gave her to her husband to be his wife.

So Abraham submitted to his wife’s suggestion.

So what is obvious that many people ignored the commands of Yahweh, and so we have a record of how the Creator used imperfect people to carry out his will.

Like king Saul, who started off good, but became evil---many men started off good and became evil.

So now Jesus stared off Good and remained good, and accomplished the purpose for which he came.--- John_17:4 I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do.

So now good men can carry on the work that Jesus instituted---but where do good men come from is still the task at hand.

So?

The Bible lists Saul's harem among the blessings he gave David. Why would God list something he condemns as a blessing?

Ishmael became the father of his own nation.

Even the criticism of Solomon was not over his massive harem, but over all the foreign concubines and wives in it.

Your argument that the Old Testament condemns polygamy is nonsensical at best. The argument that the New Testament condemns it is dodgy but at least it's culturally accepted.

 

[Paul Bethke]

This from the guy who complained when we pointed out his obsession with sex.

There are multiple relevant questions that have been asked lately but all of them are ignored so he can rant, AGAIN, about his definitions of adultery.

Once again you cannot understand that I am not obsessed with sex, but am warning those who have become corrupt with regards to what the Creator has decreed.

The Creator created man and woman who become husband and wife to be joined together through the sexual act and to enjoy each other’s company.

He created us in such a way to enjoy the sexual act in holy matrimony—not as an adulterous affair like animals.

So this is the final order--Hebrews 13:4 Marriage should be honoured by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.

So the word of God stands in divergence to people who commit adultery.

So now you know where you stand in contrast to the command of the Creator.

My obsession is to inform people of the commands of Yahweh the Creator so that they will not come under judgement—a very noble calling.

 

[halleyscomet]

Once again you cannot understand that I am not obsessed with sex, but am warning those who have become corrupt with regards to what the Creator has decreed.



The Creator created man and woman who become husband and wife to be joined together through the sexual act and to enjoy each other’s company.



He created us in such a way to enjoy the sexual act in holy matrimony—not as an adulterous affair like animals.



So this is the final order--Hebrews 13:4 Marriage should be honoured by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.



So the word of God stands in divergence to people who commit adultery.



So now you know where you stand in contrast to the command of the Creator.



My obsession is to inform people of the commands of Yahweh the Creator so that they will not come under judgement—a very noble calling.

If you're not obsessed with sex then answer some of the OTHER question that have been asked of you. Like it or not, your consistent refusal to address other matters supports the accusations of a sex obsession.

 

[halleyscomet]

My obsession is to inform people of the commands of Yahweh the Creator so that they will not come under judgement—a very noble calling.

Then cut the Jonah impression and stop shirking that responsibility. If the Mitzvot are relevant then it's part of YOUR job to tell us which ones are and are not relevant. Unless of course you don't believe a word of what you're writing.

Do you follow these Mitzvot?

Gen. 1:28 — To have children with one's wife

Ex. 20:21 — Not to make human forms even for decorative purposes — Yemenite->Ex. 20:20

Ex. 20:24 — Not to build the altar with stones hewn by metal — Yemenite->Ex. 20:23

 

[Paul Bethke]

Then cut the Jonah impression and stop shirking that responsibility. If the Mitzvot are relevant then it's part of YOUR job to tell us which ones are and are not relevant. Unless of course you don't believe a word of what you're writing.

Do you follow these Mitzvot?

Gen. 1:28 — To have children with one's wife

Ex. 20:21 — Not to make human forms even for decorative purposes — Yemenite->Ex. 20:20

Ex. 20:24 — Not to build the altar with stones hewn by metal — Yemenite->Ex. 20:23

The answer is very obvious—so why are you trying to be clever showing your ignorance.

I have on many occasions shown what the Creator requires of any person---Micah_6:8 He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.

 

[halleyscomet]

The answer is very obvious—so why are you trying to be clever showing your ignorance.



I have on many occasions shown what the Creator requires of any person---Micah_6:8 He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.

Then you recant your earlier claim that the Mitzvot are relevant to modern Christians.

 

[JayUtah]

The answer is very obvious—so why are you trying to be clever showing your ignorance.

No, the details of your purported obedience to the mitzvot are not obvious. How could they be? We don't need you to weigh in on what the mitzvot are and where they come from. There are authoritative sources for that . We need you to weigh in on whether or not you obey them, and the details of that obedience where necessary to support your claim to perfect obedience.

 

[Paul Bethke]

No, the details of your purported obedience to the mitzvot are not obvious. How could they be? We don't need you to weigh in on what the mitzvot are and where they come from. There are authoritative sources for that . We need you to weigh in on whether or not you obey them, and the details of that obedience where necessary to support your claim to perfect obedience.

There are 613 commands—so which ones apply for a repentant person to follow?
You will have to go through each one individually to ascertain which ones are relevant---but the Ten Commands is where to begin.
But as was debated in the Jerusalem council points to what is required---Acts 15:10 Why then do you put God to the test by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples—which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?

Act 15:19 "It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God.
Act 15:20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.
Act 15:21 For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."

So now based on this conclusion—the Torah is preached and the Gentiles can view what is still required of them.

But what is pertinent when the Kingdom of God is established then much of the laws will apply to all nations.

So, a Gentile believer will initially be taught from the Torah, and will be made aware of what is still applicable.

Again the New Covenant gives a list of requirements for the Gentiles to follow—now because the Church has neglected to teach Torah, a lot of the Laws have been abolished.

So the PURGED Church must once again highlight laws pertaining to holiness.
Now this being the case each law will be evaluated in line with current behavior.

Many Laws are national Laws, and are set by a constitution. So the death penalty may not be supported. Gay marriages may be supported, so the Kingdom of Yahweh will determine which laws will be obligatory according to the Torah.

Informing people through the Torah will increase their faith.

So, what is initially required is a sanctified marriage and the abstinence of food labeled unclean.

 

[JayUtah]

There are 613 commands—so which ones apply for a repentant person to follow?

You were not asked for a sermon or academic lecture on the nature of the mitzvot. You were presented with three specific commandments and asked whether you follow them. None of your answer here addresses that. You are dodging the question.

You will have to go through each one individually to ascertain which ones are relevant---but the Ten Commands is where to begin.

No. You were presented with three specific mitzvot and asked whether you obey them. Please answer that question and only that question. No lectures. No scripture dumps. Just three specific answers to three specific questions, please.

So, what is initially required is a sanctified marriage and the abstinence of food labeled unclean.

And we're back to sex and your third-grade pidgin understanding of the mitzvot regarding diet. Pathetic. It seems you'll do anything to avoid being quizzed on the details of your claim to perfect obedience.

 

[Paul Bethke]

Then you recant your earlier claim that the Mitzvot are relevant to modern Christians.

Not at all,that would be in violation of what Jesus decreed and put great emphasis on the importance--the Torah has primarily importance in the establishment of the Kingdom of Yahweh.

 

[Paul Bethke]

You were not asked for a sermon or academic lecture on the nature of the mitzvot. You were presented with three specific commandments and asked whether you follow them. None of your answer here addresses that. You are dodging the question.



No. You were presented with three specific mitzvot and asked whether you obey them. Please answer that question and only that question. No lectures. No scripture dumps. Just three specific answers to three specific questions, please.



And we're back to sex and your third-grade pidgin understanding of the mitzvot regarding diet. Pathetic. It seems you'll do anything to avoid being quizzed on the details of your claim to perfect obedience.

So why these three questions---there is no purpose in answering them!

Do you follow these Mitzvot?

Gen. 1:28 — To have children with one's wife

Ex. 20:21 — Not to make human forms even for decorative purposes — Yemenite->Ex. 20:20

Ex. 20:24 — Not to build the altar with stones hewn by metal — Yemenite->Ex. 20:23

 

[Zivan]

There are 613 commands—so which ones apply for a repentant person to follow?
You will have to go through each one individually to ascertain which ones are relevant---but the Ten Commands is where to begin.
But as was debated in the Jerusalem council points to what is required---Acts 15:10 Why then do you put God to the test by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples—which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?

Act 15:19 "It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God.
Act 15:20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.
Act 15:21 For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."

So now based on this conclusion—the Torah is preached and the Gentiles can view what is still required of them.

But what is pertinent when the Kingdom of God is established then much of the laws will apply to all nations.

So, a Gentile believer will initially be taught from the Torah, and will be made aware of what is still applicable.

Again the New Covenant gives a list of requirements for the Gentiles to follow—now because the Church has neglected to teach Torah, a lot of the Laws have been abolished.

So the PURGED Church must once again highlight laws pertaining to holiness.
Now this being the case each law will be evaluated in line with current behavior.

Many Laws are national Laws, and are set by a constitution. So the death penalty may not be supported. Gay marriages may be supported, so the Kingdom of Yahweh will determine which laws will be obligatory according to the Torah.

Informing people through the Torah will increase their faith.

So, what is initially required is a sanctified marriage and the abstinence of food labeled unclean.

I do not understand any/all of the above contradictions.

Is it only me, or did ANYTHING of what PB wrote make sense to anyone else?

 

[JayUtah]

So why these three questions---there is no purpose in answering them!

Nonsense, it's in fact the stated topic of this thread. You have claimed to be perfectly obedient to the 613 mitzvot. Directly questioning whether you specifically obey specific mitzvot is the most on-topic and purposeful question that can be asked.

Answer the questions, please.

 

[JayUtah]

Is it only me, or did ANYTHING of what PB wrote make sense to anyone else?

No, none of it makes sense. It never does. When he gets cornered he spews this sort of nonsense and then accuses everyone who doesn't follow him off on his tangent of stupidity or unfairness. Undoubtedly he will claim this answers the questions he was asked. This is his m.o. If he quotes a post and adds his own text, he has in his mind "answered" the question no matter how irrelevant.

 

[Zivan]

There are 613 commands—so which ones apply for a repentant person to follow?

You will have to go through each one individually to ascertain which ones are relevant---

Do you follow these Mitzvot?

Gen. 1:28 — To have children with one's wife

Ex. 20:21 — Not to make human forms even for decorative purposes — Yemenite->Ex. 20:20

Ex. 20:24 — Not to build the altar with stones hewn by metal — Yemenite->Ex. 20:23

So why these three questions---there is no purpose in answering them!

PB, remember this?

There are 613 commands—so which ones apply for a repentant person to follow?

You will have to go through each one individually to ascertain which ones are relevant---

 

[Zivan]

No, none of it makes sense. It never does. When he gets cornered he spews this sort of nonsense and then accuses everyone who doesn't follow him off on his tangent of stupidity or unfairness. Undoubtedly he will claim this answers the questions he was asked. This is his m.o. If he quotes a post and adds his own text, he has in his mind "answered" the question no matter how irrelevant.

It is so maddening!

He makes no sense, and then says everyone is stupid........

 

[JayUtah]

He makes no sense, and then says everyone is stupid........

I'm sure he thinks he's making sense. Not all such evasions are conscious.

 

[halleyscomet]

Not at all,that would be in violation of what Jesus decreed and put great emphasis on the importance--the Torah has primarily importance in the establishment of the Kingdom of Yahweh.

And yet you refuse to go over them in detail.

You contradict yourself. Either they need to be followed which makes it your responsibility to go into detail or they do NOT need to be followed.

Your refusal to discuss them in detail constitutes a concession that you believe they are not important. Your repeated claim that thy are relevant to modern Christians is proven a bald faced lie by your refusal to discuss them.

If you actually believed they were relevant to modern Christians you would be willing to discuss them in detail.

Your very presence in this thread is a double faced lie. You claim they are important, post in a thread dedicated to your beliefs on them, yet refuse to discuss them. You are a liar. You aren't even a very good liar.

 

[halleyscomet]

PB, remember this?

Paul Bethke is losing his opportunity to discuss them. I'm going to end up going over all of them. I wonder how he'll respond when confronted with a discussion of them that happened independent of his input.

At this point I'm tempted to just write a book and submit it for publication discussing the Mitzvot and modern Christians. Would you be interested in me bouncing ideas off you for your input? It really would be crass of me to write such a book without input from a few Jews.