JFK Conspiracy Theories IV: The One With The Whales

[HSienzant]

1. There is paperwork that shows Crescent shipped and delivered to Klein's a 36" rifle with the serial number C2766 June 18, 1962.

Well, show us that paperwork. Cite for it. Show the link. Show where it says the measurement is 36" on the C2766 rifle. Otherwise, show us logically how you arrived at your conclusion that Crescent shipped a 36" rifle with the serial number C2766. I'd be willing to bet you made an assumption you're not even aware of.

2. Klein's shows shipping a C20-T750 (the advertised item number from the coupon that Hidell ordered) to Hidell in March '62.

It's the CATALOG number. And that catalog number was non-unique and used for both the 36" and 40" rifles. The control number, like the serial number, was unique. That control number was, according to Waldman, VC-836. Oswald was Hidell, so you can drop the pretense that someone other than Oswald ordered or paid for the rifle.

3. Klein's did not advertise the 40.2" MC until April '63. There was no advertisement from Oct '62 through March '63

Untrue. The April editions of magazines are on the newsstands in MARCH. This has been repeatedly pointed out to you. You don't gain credibility by ignoring simple facts that disprove your arguments. That means Klein's was advertising the 40" rifle in MARCH. Which is when Oswald ordered his rifle from an older advertisement (appearing on the newsstands in JANUARY, which was two months out of date).

4. A 40.2" rifle with C2766 was found on the 6th floor of the TSBD.

No dispute there from anyone. Klein's records shows Oswald was shipped a rifle with a serial number of C2766. Since serial numbers are unique identifiers, there's only one rifle with that serial number, and Oswald got it, and left it behind at the depository. When measured, it was found to be 40.2". Not 36". Your argument is destroyed by that fact alone.

5. There is no record of a 40.2" rifle being shipped by either Crescent or Klein's with a serial number C2766.

Already covered this in detail. The April ad said the catalog number for the 40" rifle was C20-T750. That's the same NON-UNIQUE catalog number that was used for the 36" rifle. Hence, the C20-T750 cannot be used to determine whether Oswald was shipped a 36" or a 40" rifle. You cannot tell from that number alone. There is not enough info there.

But when we understand
(a) Oswald ordered in March,
(b) ads for the 40" rifle appeared in March
(c) Kleins was selling and shipping 40" rifles in March
(d) Oswald was shipped his C2766 rifle in March
(e) He was photographed holding his C2766 rifle in March
(f) Analysis shows the rifle in the photos is 40" long
(g) His prints are on the C2766 rifle found in the Depository
(h) The rifle found in the Depository was measured and found to be 40.2"

Well, then, it's clear Oswald was shipped a 40" rifle with the serial number C2766. And all your bluster won't change that any.

Hank

 

[HSienzant]

No, you have a rifle with a C2766 imprinted on it; show me where the 40.2" was sold with that serial number... you can't and now you throw meaningless and superfluous questions and scenarios.

Asked and answered.

The rifle with the serial number C2766 was shipped to Oswald. It can be documented to be in his possession by both the photos showing him with the C2766 weapon as well as his prints on the weapon. After the assassination, a rifle bearing that C2766 serial number was found in the Depository by the Dallas Police. They turned it over to the FBI, and when the FBI measured that C2766 rifle, it was 40.2".

Done.

Don't ask again.

Hank

 

[abaddon]

Asked and answered.

The rifle with the serial number C2766 was shipped to Oswald. It can be documented to be in his possession by both the photos showing him with the C2766 weapon as well as his prints on the weapon. After the assassination, a rifle bearing that C2766 serial number was found in the Depository by the Dallas Police. They turned it over to the FBI, and when the FBI measured that C2766 rifle, it was 40.2".

Done.

Don't ask again.

Hank

It's worse than that. It can be paper trailed from Genoa to Oswald's hands.

So far, NO can't bear to contemplate that it even arrived in New York.

 

[abaddon]

Oops, I missed that. Where did you find it? I was looking at Chapter 4 page 119 of the WCR.

The WC is a huge volume of data. See PM.

 

[HSienzant]

You have no proof, no evidence, you have absolutely nothing that traces back to any level of distribution that a 40.2" rifle was sold with the C2766 serial number.

This ad available on newsstands in March of 1963 establishes the 40" rifle used the Catalog number of C20-T750:
http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h441/johniscool5/36inch40incha.jpg

This paperwork from Klein's establishes a rifle bearing the Catalog number of C20-T750 and the uniquie serial number of C2766 (and the unique control number of VC-836) was shipped to Oswald's PO box:
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh21/html/WH_Vol21_0364a.htm

You're wrong. You're done. You're toast.

Hank

 

[bknight]

Oh well, start in Italy. In 1960, the rifles were packed 10 to a crate by a Crescent representative under Italian supervision. (WC exhibit C10(K1)), in crates numbered 3305 to 3436. C2766 was the third rifle in the crate numbered 3376

Following close enough that you are describing the shipment that arrived in February of '63 which is completely bogus if you think that was a shipment of 36' rifles. It is proven well beyond a shadow of doubt that the shipment was 36" rifles. The weight of the shipment of 100 rifles was 750lbs; each 40.2" rifle weighed 8 pounds... just through simple mathematics (and I gotta keep it simple) is that this shipment is too light for the 8 pound rifles... this isn't including the wooden cases which are at a minimum of 16 pounds and could go up to 20 pounds when empty. Is that the shipment you referred to? Maybe I wasn't following because I am too stupid.

Well the number of rifles per crate has drastically changed, perhaps your math might be in error?

 

[HSienzant]

You have never shown that LHO/Hidell received the rifle that was found in the TSBD, you can say all you want and get your little minions to line up but the facts are facts and you and others saying the opposite does not change history.

He was photographed holding that very rifle.
His prints are on that very rifle.
Of course he received that very rifle that was found in the Depository.

Oswald ordered the rifle on March 13th and it was shipped on March 20th. You have claimed, but certainly not established (nor even tried to establish) that the 40" rifle wasn't being advertised (or sold & shipped) when Klein's shipped the C2766 to Oswald's PO box.

why?

Hilarious. Why what? You need to establish the only rifle available under the CATALOG number of C20-T750 was a 36" weapon. I've shown the April issue of American rifleman (appearing on newsstands in MARCH) contained the 40" rifle with the same CATALOG number. We're awaiting your evidence that the C20-T750 on the Klein's paperwork could only be referring to a 36" rifle, and not a 40" rifle. It's simply a presumption by you that the C20-T750 means a 36" rifle. But it doesn't.
http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h441/johniscool5/36inch40incha.jpg

in March? You mean the April issue? See Hank, you use flimsy pretzel logic by calling it March and not the April issue. Since you made the claim the ad came out in March... when did the March issue get released? Provide an exact date... I'll wait.

The April issue appears on newsstands in MARCH. The April advertisement was seen by readers in MARCH. You are knocking down a strawman argument and pretending I said the March issue. I didn't, I said the April issue. And I cited for it. Here it is again:
http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h441/johniscool5/36inch40incha.jpg

Hank

 

[abaddon]

Following close enough that you are describing the shipment that arrived in February of '63 which is completely bogus if you think that was a shipment of 36' rifles. It is proven well beyond a shadow of doubt that the shipment was 36" rifles. The weight of the shipment of 100 rifles was 750lbs; each 40.2" rifle weighed 8 pounds... just through simple mathematics (and I gotta keep it simple) is that this shipment is too light for the 8 pound rifles... this isn't including the wooden cases which are at a minimum of 16 pounds and could go up to 20 pounds when empty. Is that the shipment you referred to? Maybe I wasn't following because I am too stupid.

The 1960 shipment is not the same as the 1963 shipment, nor any of the intervening shipments.

Furthermore, to this day, declared ship weights are notoriously flakey for obvious reasons and shippers don't like that much.

It has been my dubious privilege to write such integration in the past and boy do they give you a hard time.

 

[HSienzant]

It is proven well beyond a shadow of doubt that the shipment was 36" rifles

How was this proven? By your arguments below? No, your arguments below are wrong, wrong, wrong. Watch and learn.

The weight of the shipment of 100 rifles was 750lbs; each 40.2" rifle weighed 8 pounds...

The advertisement by Klein's says 7 pounds.
http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h441/johniscool5/36inch40incha.jpg

So now you're going to argue they didn't know the weight of the rifles they were shipping or the length of the rifles?

Let me suggest an alternative solution: Could your source be lying to you or concealing some information?

Why, absolutely.

Your facts are wrong.

The rifle weighed 8 pounds even, but that weight includes both a scope and a sling. The rifle had the scope added by Kleins, it was not part of the rifles shipped to Kleins. Oswald also had to find his own sling, and in the backyard photos, he used a makeshift sling fashioned apparently from rope. The sling on the rifle as recovered in the Depository was actually from an Air Force holster that Oswald purchased in an Army/Navy surplus store.

Here's the testimony about the weight:
Mr. FRAZIER - The overall length is 40.2 inches. It weighs 8 pounds even.
Mr. McCLOY - With the scope?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, with the scope.
The CHAIRMAN - And the sling?
Mr. FRAZIER - That is with the sling, yes, sir. The sling weighs 4 3/4 ounces. The stock length is 34.8 inches, which is the wooden portion from end to end with the butt plate attached. The barrel and action from the muzzle to the rear of the tang, which is this portion at the rearmost portion of the metal, is 28.9 inches. The barrel only is 21.18 inches.

just through simple mathematics (and I gotta keep it simple) is that this shipment is too light for the 8 pound rifles... this isn't including the wooden cases which are at a minimum of 16 pounds and could go up to 20 pounds when empty. Is that the shipment you referred to? Maybe I wasn't because I am too stupid.

The math is fine above. The facts are wrong. The rifles weighed 7 pounds when shipped to Kleins and as sold (without the scope). There were 100 rifles in the shipment. 7 pounds x 100 = 700 pounds, that leaves 50 pounds for the ten packing cartons, at five pounds each.

Your facts are wrong. That happens when you trust conspiracy theorists to give it to you straight. The eight pound figure includes the scope and sling, neither of which was included in the rifles shipped to Klein's.

You're wrong.

Again.

Hank

 

[HSienzant]

Red herring. I am simply following the paper trail of the rifle bearing serial number C2766 from Italy. Do you concede that such a rifle is documented as reaching Adam Industries in New york from Genoa, Italy?

His conspiracy sources on the web don't cover that. So he can neither confirm nor deny. Hence his failure to answer either way.

Hank

 

[RoboTimbo]

His conspiracy sources on the web don't cover that. So he can neither confirm nor deny. Hence his failure to answer either way.

Hank

It's kind of funny/sad that the CT web sites leave these CT warriors out to hang like that. Any idea which ones push the 36"/40" nonsense?

 

[MicahJava]

No Other, here is a pdf ebook version of John Armstrong's Harvey And Lee which contains much of the information about the rifle (the ebook and a zip file with the files from the CD-ROM is on this list): http://krusch.com/books/kennedy/

 

[Axxman300]

See, I've never read the WC, so when I asked NO to trace the Carcano back to Italy I was unaware that the WC had done just that, which is solid (and boring) detective work. To me this is just another indication of how thorough the investigation actually was.

Anyway, back to arguing a null point.

 

[abaddon]

His conspiracy sources on the web don't cover that. So he can neither confirm nor deny. Hence his failure to answer either way.

Hank

That's why I press the point. C2766 is documented from Genoa to the Adams warehouse and beyond. NO is sprinting away from that. I wonder why?

 

[bknight]

That's why I press the point. C2766 is documented from Genoa to the Adams warehouse and beyond. NO is sprinting away from that. I wonder why?

Probably because the paper trail is one more nail in that particular "anomaly" coffin, as if it needed another.

 

[abaddon]

Probably because the paper trail is one more nail in that particular "anomaly" coffin, as if it needed another.

Perhaps. As things stand, I have presented the paper trail from Genoa to NY for C2766.

NO has nothing to say about it and I am wondering why that might be.

 

[HSienzant]

It's kind of funny/sad that the CT web sites leave these CT warriors out to hang like that. Any idea which ones push the 36"/40" nonsense?

Martha Moyer wrote a long article about it here:
http://www.jfklancer.com/pdf/moyer.pdf

It's replete with the same kind of 'logic' we're treated to by No Other.

Hank

 

[HSienzant]

No Other, here is a pdf ebook version of John Armstrong's Harvey And Lee which contains much of the information about the rifle (the ebook and a zip file with the files from the CD-ROM is on this list): http://krusch.com/books/kennedy/

So what's he say about the rifle that you find compelling? And have you actually researched any of his claims, or are you just blindly following his lead here?

Hank

 

[HSienzant]

Perhaps. As things stand, I have presented the paper trail from Genoa to NY for C2766.

NO has nothing to say about it and I am wondering why that might be.

Because he has no rebuttal. Being a conspiracy theorist means never having to admit a mistake. You just change the subject to something else you find "compelling".

Like I don't really expect him to attempt to rebut the 7pound/8pound mistake he made -- claiming the weight of the rifle as shipped to Kleins was 8 pounds, but the ad for the 40" rifle says 7 pounds, and FBI Agent Robert Frazier said the 8 pound weight included the scope and the sling, neither of which was part of the rifle shipped to Kleins.

I don't expect No Other to admit a mistake. I fully expect him to change the subject to something else with the rifle that he finds anomalous.

Hank

 

[Axxman300]

Because he has no rebuttal. Being a conspiracy theorist means never having to admit a mistake. You just change the subject to something else you find "compelling".

Like I don't really expect him to attempt to rebut the 7pound/8pound mistake he made -- claiming the weight of the rifle as shipped to Kleins was 8 pounds, but the ad for the 40" rifle says 7 pounds, and FBI Agent Robert Frazier said the 8 pound weight included the scope and the sling, neither of which was part of the rifle shipped to Kleins.

I don't expect No Other to admit a mistake. I fully expect him to change the subject to something else with the rifle that he finds anomalous.

Hank

A savvy JFK-CTer would fabricate a vaguely sourced rumor about CIA/Mob/Anti-Castro Cubans receiving a couple of cases of Carcanos at their secret training base in Louisiana with 40 inch barrels, one of which was used to frame LHO after they learned he had bought one.

If you're going to make something up, make it interesting.