Salt in diet is a sneaky thing

[TruthJonsen]

Thanks Mike,

I appreciate the rigor of this forum, it is why I joined. I cannot post links until I have more posts.

I am also hampered in that I only have a mobile device for a few weeks. I want to be clear that I am not here to promote or defend anything, I just want to get the groups skepticism to prevent me from falling for a scam.

I will do better and see what I can find and use up some posts that way.

 

[Ziggurat]

It has been reported that the ketogenic diet can help reverse the metabolic syndrome which includes high BP.

Is your interest in metabolic syndrome academic, or is it something you're dealing with or at risk for?

 

[rjh01]

It has been reported that the ketogenic diet can help reverse the metabolic syndrome which includes high BP.

Oddly, many on the diet find they have to consciously increase salt intake to avoid mineral loss as they do not retain water as with a traditional high carb diet.

Welcome to the forum, TruthJonsen.

You'll find that around here people want a little better than "they say" or "it has been reported", as substantiation for a claim. Name the person, quote the study, link to an article discussing the matter, something like that, and you'll get a more reasoned response. So, have you got anything to back up your claim about high fat/ low carb diets and salt?

Can I help? Here are a couple of links that say that the diet can lower blood pressure

https://naturalbloodpressuresolutions.com/ketogenic-diet-and-blood-pressure

Although the study was looking at the effects upon weight loss of a low carb (ketogenic) diet versus a weight loss medication – Orlistat, the researchers also discovered that many of the adults on the low carb diet experienced a healthy drop in their BPs.

https://docmuscles.com/2016/07/04/how-fat-lowers-your-blood-pressure/

What shocked me was that when I took patients off of salt & caloric restriction, and placed them on low carbohydrate high fat diets (and yes, I gave them back their salt), their blood pressure normalized. I noticed that as their fasting insulin levels began to fall, their blood pressure began to return to normal.

I find when a person makes a claim, but does not back it up with a link a good idea is to first do a search myself to see if the claim is credible. This is one such case.

 

[ViewsofMars]

It has been reported that the ketogenic diet can help reverse the metabolic syndrome which includes high BP.

Oddly, many on the diet find they have to consciously increase salt intake to avoid mineral loss as they do not retain water as with a traditional high carb diet.

REALLY?

Neurology and Neurosurgery
Epilepsy Center

The Ketogenic Diet Center

The high fat, low carbohydrate ketogenic diet has been managed through the Pediatric Epilepsy team at Johns Hopkins since its beginnings in the 1920s. We are the premiere center in the world for clinical and research expertise regarding the ketogenic diet, having enrolled hundreds of children on the ketogenic diet and the modified Atkins diet.

After medical review to determine if it is an appropriate treatment, we admit approximately four children for the diet monthly. Patients ranging from infants to adolescents are admitted for a four-day period during which the diet is started and education provided. We are also actively investigating and using the modified Atkins diet for epilepsy in clinical trials for both children and adults.

Epilepsy Diet for Adults

The modified Atkins diet can be used successfully for adults and can be started at Johns Hopkins through our Adult Epilepsy Diet Center. At this time, we are not starting adults on the traditional ketogenic diet. Learn more about our Adult Epilepsy Diet Center program.

Ketogenic Diet Second Opinions

In many ways, the ketogenic diet is as much an art as a science. Recognizing that "fine tuning" the ketogenic diet and modified Atkins diet can be experience-based, we do offer single, 1-hour long, second opinion visits to families of children in other ketogenic diet centers. This request must also come from the ketogenic diet neurologist in charge, who will continue to manage the child after the second opinion, and all medical records must be sent in advance.

[ . . .]

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/neu...ilepsy/pediatric_epilepsy/ketogenic_diet.html

Thankfully, I don't need the ketogenic diet. I'm quite healthy eating what I eat which is fresh fruit, fresh vegetables, meat and chicken, grains, non-fat milk, love my fresh orange juice. Plus at 65 years old, I'm physically active and alert!

 

[macdoc]

bit of an overturn of accepted wisdom

Wanna lose weight? Eat more salt
New scientific findings contradict conventional wisdom about how the body handles salt.

https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2017/05/12/wanna-lose-weight-eat-more-salt.html

 

[Ziggurat]

bit of an overturn of accepted wisdom



https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2017/05/12/wanna-lose-weight-eat-more-salt.html

That's another version of the story I linked to in post #38.

 

[ViewsofMars]

Hi MacDoc

The article you presented "Wanna lose weight? Eat more salt. New scientific findings contradict conventional wisdom about how the body handles salt."
I looked at it. https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2017/05/12/wanna-lose-weight-eat-more-salt.html


I'm going to use and support the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services National Institutes of Health:

Health Topic: Sodium
Also called: Salt

Here is an excerpt from the article:

Summary
Table salt is made up of the elements sodium and chlorine - the technical name for salt is sodium chloride. Your body needs some sodium to work properly. It helps with the function of nerves and muscles. It also helps to keep the right balance of fluids in your body. Your kidneys control how much sodium is in your body. If you have too much and your kidneys can't get rid it, sodium builds up in your blood. This can lead to high blood pressure. High blood pressure can lead to other health problems.

Most people in the U.S. get more sodium in their diets than they need. A key to healthy eating is choosing foods low in salt and sodium. Doctors recommend you eat less than 2.4 grams per day. That equals about 1 teaspoon of table salt a day. Reading food labels can help you see how much sodium is in prepared foods.

NIH: National Heart, Lung, and Blood Institute

https://medlineplus.gov/sodium.html

Page last updated on 9 May 2017

 

[Ziggurat]

Yes, if you have too much sodium and your kidneys can't get rid of it, that can lead to high blood pressure. But for most people, their kidneys CAN get rid of it, so it doesn't generally lead to high blood pressure.

Government diet recommendations are not reliable.

 

[macdoc]

Exactly....and as the controlled experiments show ...that the salt regulatory system is far more intimately involved with fat metabolism than previously understood.

I'm going to use and support the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services National Institutes of Health:

Didn't and read or didn't comprehend the article did you?
Your attitude is why failed/failing memes persist.

 

[Darat]

Plus, it's cheap now and it still tastes good.

I'd say like most foods it is probably an acquired taste.

 

[casebro]

Is there a study that shows that a sodium restricted diet actually lowers BP?

Or do water pills lower BP, so therefore it must be sodium related?

I'm thinking of the fat debacle, where they blamed dietary cholesterol, then changed to saturated fats, yet dietary changes only cut serum chol levels by 5%. And Stains seem to prevent heart artery disease, but other drugs that lower cholesterol levels don't do anything for mortality.

 

[ViewsofMars]

Hi MacDoc

The article you presented "Wanna lose weight? Eat more salt. New scientific findings contradict conventional wisdom about how the body handles salt."
I looked at it. https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2017/05/12/wanna-lose-weight-eat-more-salt.html


I'm going to use and support the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services National Institutes of Health:

Health Topic: Sodium
Also called: Salt

Here is an excerpt from the article:

Summary
Table salt is made up of the elements sodium and chlorine - the technical name for salt is sodium chloride. Your body needs some sodium to work properly. It helps with the function of nerves and muscles. It also helps to keep the right balance of fluids in your body. Your kidneys control how much sodium is in your body. If you have too much and your kidneys can't get rid it, sodium builds up in your blood. This can lead to high blood pressure. High blood pressure can lead to other health problems.

Most people in the U.S. get more sodium in their diets than they need. A key to healthy eating is choosing foods low in salt and sodium. Doctors recommend you eat less than 2.4 grams per day. That equals about 1 teaspoon of table salt a day. Reading food labels can help you see how much sodium is in prepared foods.

NIH: National Heart, Lung, and Blood Institute

https://medlineplus.gov/sodium.html

Page last updated on 9 May 2017

Yes, if you have too much sodium and your kidneys can't get rid of it, that can lead to high blood pressure. But for most people, their kidneys CAN get rid of it, so it doesn't generally lead to high blood pressure.

Government diet recommendations are not reliable.

Ziggurat, I don't agree with you! Every doctor in the United States supports what I presented! That website I provided on medlineplus is what they use.

 

[casebro]

Ziggurat, I don't agree with you! Every doctor in the United States supports what I presented! That website I provided on medlineplus is what they use.

Yes. but welcome to a skeptics site. You are using "Argumant by authotity", which may not indicater scientifig fact. Frinstance, they may be sponsored by a pharmaceutical comoany that want to sell a medication for $$$.

So seriously, I'd like to see a DBPC study that shows how much my BP is likely to drop on a low sodium diet. I'm taking 6 meds now, and I've heard that even water pills only drop it 3-5. But they do work somewhat synergistically with some meds. But that is pills, I/we are questioning the efficacy of low sodium diets.

 

[casebro]

A related quest- My dog died of Addisons. Seems the adrenal controls electrolytes, hers got so bad she seized. Would a persons HPTA axis be the root cause of hypertension, not via adrenaline directly, but via eletrolyte probs? OOps, well, yeah, they do check mine regulary. Had yours done?

 

[ViewsofMars]

Yes. but welcome to a skeptics site. You are using "Argumant by authotity", which may not indicater scientifig fact. Frinstance, they may be sponsored by a pharmaceutical comoany that want to sell a medication for $$$.

So seriously, I'd like to see a DBPC study that shows how much my BP is likely to drop on a low sodium diet. I'm taking 6 meds now, and I've heard that even water pills only drop it 3-5. But they do work somewhat synergistically with some meds. But that is pills, I/we are questioning the efficacy of low sodium diets.

casebro, I am not using an "argument by authority"!!!

This is what I stated "Ziggurat, I don't agree with you! Every doctor in the United States supports what I presented! That website I provided on medlineplus is what they use."

In the United States doctor's warn their patients about salt intake.

"Summary
Table salt is made up of the elements sodium and chlorine - the technical name for salt is sodium chloride. Your body needs some sodium to work properly. It helps with the function of nerves and muscles. It also helps to keep the right balance of fluids in your body. Your kidneys control how much sodium is in your body. If you have too much and your kidneys can't get rid it, sodium builds up in your blood. This can lead to high blood pressure. High blood pressure can lead to other health problems.

Most people in the U.S. get more sodium in their diets than they need. A key to healthy eating is choosing foods low in salt and sodium. Doctors recommend you eat less than 2.4 grams per day. That equals about 1 teaspoon of table salt a day. Reading food labels can help you see how much sodium is in prepared foods".

Some patient's ignore what what their doctor tells them. So what happens?
Those people end up with high blood pressure medication given to them by their doctor. There are some adverse effects in every medication. For example some people can't take high blood pressure medication.

My concern is some people don't care about their health because they just don't want to give up junk food and are salt junkies!

 

[alfaniner]

I don't eat excess salt -- I only ever eat ramen.

That little flavor packet is delicious!

 

[Ziggurat]

Ziggurat, I don't agree with you! Every doctor in the United States supports what I presented! That website I provided on medlineplus is what they use.

You've combined two fallacies: argument from authority and argument ad populum.

Plus, I doubt you're even right about their opinion. Doctors aren't a hive mind, they don't all think the same thing. And since much of the research challenging conventional wisdom on salt is new and institutional recommendations tend to change slowly, those recommendations just don't mean very much.

 

[ViewsofMars]

You've combined two fallacies: argument from authority and argument ad populum.

Plus, I doubt you're even right about their opinion. Doctors aren't a hive mind, they don't all think the same thing. And since much of the research challenging conventional wisdom on salt is new and institutional recommendations tend to change slowly, those recommendations just don't mean very much.

Ziggurat, I most definitely don't think you know much about the American medical community. Furthermore, your statement to me is outrages! A doctor has to pass a bar examine. There is no argument thus no fallacies! I support the medical community. In an emergency room or hospital or in a office of a primary care doctor, it will be the doctor who decides what is best for the patient! It occurs to me that you don't take a yearly exam by a professional doctor.

Let's carry on..."The National Kidney Foundation (NKF) is the largest, most comprehensive and longstanding organization dedicated to the awareness, prevention and treatment of kidney disease". . .

Top 10 Tips for Reducing Salt in Your Diet

When it comes to dietary sodium, less is certainly best, yet Americans today consume 50% more than the recommended daily quantities of sodium. Diets high in sodium increase blood pressure levels. High blood pressure damages the kidneys over time, and is a leading cause of kidney failure. To help Americans reduce salt intake to the ideal one teaspoon per day, the National Kidney Foundation offers 10 tips to reduce sodium in your diet. To help Americans reduce salt intake to the ideal one teaspoon per day, the National Kidney Foundation and Council of Renal Nutrition member Linda Ulrich offer 10 tips to reduce sodium in your diet.

1. Use fresh, rather than packaged, meats. Fresh cuts of beef, chicken or pork contain natural sodium, but the content is still much less than the hidden extra sodium added during processing in products like bacon or ham. If a food item keeps well in the fridge for days or weeks, that's a tip off that the sodium content is too high.

2. Choose fresh fruit and vegetables, as well, since they are very low in sodium. Canned and frozen fruits are also low in sodium.

3. When buying frozen vegetables, choose those that are labeled "fresh frozen" and do not contain added seasoning or sauces.

4. Begin reading food labels as a matter of course. Sodium content is always listed on the label. Sometimes the high sugar content in a product like apple pie can mask the high sodium content so it's important to check every label for sodium content.

5. Compare various brands of the same food item until you find the one that has the lowest sodium content, since this will vary from brand to brand.

6. Select spices or seasonings that do not list sodium on their labels, i.e. choose garlic powder over garlic salt.

7. Before dining out, do your research. Visit the restaurant's website which should list the sodium content of various dishes served there. Alternatively, when you're at the restaurant and ready to order, you can request that the dish be served without salt.

8. Beware of products that don't taste especially salty but still have high sodium content, such as cottage cheese.

9. If you have elevated blood pressure, dietary sodium restriction can not only lower your blood pressure, but can enhance your response to blood pressure medications.

10. Salt preference is an acquired taste that can be unlearned. It takes about 6-8 weeks to get used to eating food with much lower quantities of salt, but once it's done, it's actually difficult to eat foods like potato chips because they taste way too salty.

Spice Up Your Diet without Salt
https://www.kidney.org/news/ekidney/june10/Salt_june10
//https://www.kidney.org/news/ekidney/june10/Salt_june10\\

 

[casebro]

Ziggurat, I most definitely don't think you know much about the American medical community. Furthermore, your statement to me is outrages! A doctor has to pass a bar examine. There is no argument thus no fallacies! I support the medical community. In an emergency room or hospital or in a office of a primary care doctor, it will be the doctor who decides what is best for the patient! It occurs to me that you don't take a yearly exam by a professional doctor.

Let's carry on..."The National Kidney Foundation (NKF) is the largest, most comprehensive and longstanding organization dedicated to the awareness, prevention and treatment of kidney disease". . .

Top 10 Tips for Reducing Salt in Your Diet

When it comes to dietary sodium, less is certainly best, yet Americans today consume 50% more than the recommended daily quantities of sodium. Diets high in sodium increase blood pressure levels. High blood pressure damages the kidneys over time, and is a leading cause of kidney failure. To help Americans reduce salt intake to the ideal one teaspoon per day, the National Kidney Foundation offers 10 tips to reduce sodium in your diet. To help Americans reduce salt intake to the ideal one teaspoon per day, the National Kidney Foundation and Council of Renal Nutrition member Linda Ulrich offer 10 tips to reduce sodium in your diet.

1. Use fresh, rather than packaged, meats. Fresh cuts of beef, chicken or pork contain natural sodium, but the content is still much less than the hidden extra sodium added during processing in products like bacon or ham. If a food item keeps well in the fridge for days or weeks, that's a tip off that the sodium content is too high.

2. Choose fresh fruit and vegetables, as well, since they are very low in sodium. Canned and frozen fruits are also low in sodium.

3. When buying frozen vegetables, choose those that are labeled "fresh frozen" and do not contain added seasoning or sauces.

4. Begin reading food labels as a matter of course. Sodium content is always listed on the label. Sometimes the high sugar content in a product like apple pie can mask the high sodium content so it's important to check every label for sodium content.

5. Compare various brands of the same food item until you find the one that has the lowest sodium content, since this will vary from brand to brand.

6. Select spices or seasonings that do not list sodium on their labels, i.e. choose garlic powder over garlic salt.

7. Before dining out, do your research. Visit the restaurant's website which should list the sodium content of various dishes served there. Alternatively, when you're at the restaurant and ready to order, you can request that the dish be served without salt.

8. Beware of products that don't taste especially salty but still have high sodium content, such as cottage cheese.

9. If you have elevated blood pressure, dietary sodium restriction can not only lower your blood pressure, but can enhance your response to blood pressure medications.

10. Salt preference is an acquired taste that can be unlearned. It takes about 6-8 weeks to get used to eating food with much lower quantities of salt, but once it's done, it's actually difficult to eat foods like potato chips because they taste way too salty.

Spice Up Your Diet without Salt
https://www.kidney.org/news/ekidney/june10/Salt_june10
//https://www.kidney.org/news/ekidney/june10/Salt_june10\\

VoM, it's still argument from concensus.

I want to read the results of the study on which it is based. How much will a low salt diet cut somebody's BP?

 

[ViewsofMars]

VoM, it's still argument from concensus.

I want to read the results of the study on which it is based. How much will a low salt diet cut somebody's BP?

No, it isn't an "argument" from consensus What I have presented is a fact! Go talk to your medical doctor! Do you have a medical doctor? I think not! Because everyone I know personally has a yearly physical exam with their primary physician who will do a through lab work on his/her patient. Lab work will determine many factors, including sodium intake. If it is high then the doctor will definitely advise the patient to reduce his/her sodium intake.