Salt in diet is a sneaky thing

[Myriad]

Except no sauce, no bread. Pasta is enough cabs for a meal. And I prefer butter and sour cream.

But I don't usually eat it as Ital meal. I might break one apart, fry it in coconut oil, and crack a couple eggs on it. That is my breakfast, complete.

And yes a link is about 5 oz. But so lean it won't grease the pan if I fry it alone. And if you want to discuss sat fat and health, we can start another thread.

Point is, preconceived notions don't count.

Fair enough. But 360 mg of sodium in the sausage plus another 120 mg in the (assumed two) eggs for breakfast does not directly suggest an overall low sodium diet. That would ultimately depend on your other meals, and whether and how you snack.

Many breakfasts are considerably lower in sodium, unless there's bacon or some types of biscuits involved. For example, the "hidden sodium in breakfast cereal" that food magazines love to write about usually amounts to about 200 mg of sodium per one-cup serving (or 350 in a more typical adult bowlful with milk added).

In general, though, the more of your own cooking you do, the less sodium you'll get. If you're making your own sausage, that suggests you're probably not eating a lot of frozen pizzas or lunch meats or canned soup or fast food, so your sodium intake more likely than not is considerably lower than average.

 

[casebro]

In general, though, the more of your own cooking you do, the less sodium you'll get. If you're making your own sausage, that suggests you're probably not eating a lot of frozen pizzas or lunch meats or canned soup or fast food, so your sodium intake more likely than not is considerably lower than average.

But to sum up the studies put forth so far in this thread, If you are eating so much salt per day that you can cut 6 grams, you will make slight drop in BP.

Now, is there a study comparing a drop from the usual 3.4 gr/day to the "low sodium diet" of less than 2? Isn't that an expected 1 BP point?

 

[Dancing David]

So we've got conflicting results: some studies say reducing salt will reduce BP, some say it won't.

But not everyone needs to reduce their BP. If you don't have hypertension, why would further reducing your BP lead to better health outcomes? Is there any actual evidence that healthy people should reduce their salt intake to 3 g/day, as the authors of your source recommend? And how does salt intake affect all-cause mortality rates? If reducing salt lowers BP but doesn't improve all-cause mortality, it's not a benefit.

This is what a wise nurse practitioner told me, reduce your sodium, see if it help your BP. See if a higher intakes raises your BP.

I did I tested what a 'normal USA' sodium intake did for me, my lower number was higher by 10 pts. than a less than 1500mg daily intake for me.

She was surprised because in her personal experience african-americans were more likely to be salt sensitive than 'caucasians'.

 

[Myriad]

But to sum up the studies put forth so far in this thread, If you are eating so much salt per day that you can cut 6 grams, you will make slight drop in BP.

Now, is there a study comparing a drop from the usual 3.4 gr/day to the "low sodium diet" of less than 2? Isn't that an expected 1 BP point?

Well, that's a separate question, and the science doesn't seem clear to me. A study in which 40 subjects all experienced a 1 point BP reduction will generate the same "expected" reduction as one in which 39 of the subjects did not change at all and one of them went down 40 points. So, as with other areas for which the science so far is indecisive (such as dietary cholesterol from egg yolk; harmful or not?) I err on the side of caution but don't obsess about it.

If I were concerned about BP (and I am, a little), I'd look to weight first. My own BP and weight have been so consistently correlated that I know the coefficient.

 

[casebro]

I suspect my body keeps my BP high in order to force fuel into tense muscles. Well, it's one way to blame all of my health probs on a single cause. Occam's metabolism.

Far as weight loss, last time I weighed this much I worked off 60lbs in 3 months. Sugars got good, apnea evaporated too. But I couldn't add BP to that list. My sister is also heavily muscled, has BP through the roof, and has muscle definition like a body builder. She calls me her 'hard brother' when she bumps into me in the hall, but I am going to poke her next time I see her. I think she is my 'hard sister'.

 

[Roboramma]

Let's assume it is causative. Is there harm in eating lots of salt when you're young? Or is it enough to cut back when you're old and you start to develop higher blood pressure?

Good question, I don't know. It's certainly plausible that the harm builds up and cutting out salt after you've developed high blood pressure won't cure it, or at least your risk will remain higher than it would have if you'd never eaten high amounts of salt, but that's an empirical question.

How effective is removing salt from the diets of people you develop high blood pressure?

 

[Perpetual Student]

There is no doubt that tolerance for high levels of sodium varies a great deal among individuals.
In my case, I spent most of my life with no consequences to high levels of sodium intake (Perhaps I did manifest a slightly elevated BP -- nothing more.)
Now after a few heart attacks and a profoundly weakened heart (including malfunctioning valves), if I were to have a normal fast food meal, say a burger and fries, I would end up panting for air and in an emergency room with pulmonary edema. I must keep my daily sodium intake somewhere between 500 and 1000 mg and fluid intake below 2 liters -- or all hell breaks loose.
The important and unanswered question is whether high sodium levels over many years causes a higher likelihood of heart disease. So far, I have not seen convincing evidence one way or another.

 

[ViewsofMars]

The current discussion is about whether the accepted wisdom on safe levels of salt consumption is correct. Simply quoting that accepted wisdom does not advance that discussion. Other posters are attempting to dig deeper into the studies which are the basis for that accepted wisdom, in order to assess whether the evidence is sufficiently robust.

Pixel42, if you review page two and read the links I provided then you would know that they are highly accepted by the scientific community within the United States of America and abroad. The 'evidence' is real. I am an American and there are other immigrants from around the globe and people from other countries that live and work in America. "The current population of the United States of America is 326,176,197 as of Wednesday, May 17, 2017, based on the latest United Nations estimates." (1)

Ziggurat, I just don't have time to dilly dally around with you. I was born in America. My mother and father were born in America! There are many generations in my family and we have lived and died. All of us are and were United States citizens. I love my country. I personally wouldn't live anywhere else on the globe.

Furthermore, your comments (#85) to me are rude. Like I said, "There is no argument thus no fallacies!" I have no need to argue when I know the facts which I have already provided on the previous page. A good medical doctor PhD in America is highly respected in the scientific community though there are few that aren't that good even those around the globe. I personally have great doctors, but to you it means very little. Ziggurat, you stated to me, "A doctor has to pass a bar examine. Case in point: lawyers have to pass a bar examine, not doctors." My response to you , "The Mission of the Medical Board of California[-]The mission of the Medical Board of California is to protect health care consumers through the proper licensing and regulation of physicians and surgeons and certain allied health care professions and through the vigorous, objective enforcement of the Medical Practice Act, and to promote access to quality medical care through the Board's licensing and regulatory functions." (2) Ziggurat, you stated to me, "Government dietary recommendations are crap." I have to disagree with you! As I presented on the previous page, and look at the bottom of the page you will see: United States Department of Health and Human Services and the National Institutes of Health (3) That website from America is highly respected by the global scientific community!


"The National Kidney Foundation (NKF) is the largest, most comprehensive and longstanding organization dedicated to the awareness, prevention and treatment of kidney disease." People can look on the previous page to read the entire article.

Edited by kmortis: 

Removed to comply with Rule 12 & Rule 0

1. http://www.worldometers.info/world-population/us-population/
2. http://www.mbc.ca.gov/
3. https://medlineplus.gov/sodium.html

 

[Pixel42]

Pixel42, if you review page two and read the links I provided then you would know that they are highly accepted by the scientific community within the United States of America and abroad.

Nobody is disputing this. Other posters are digging into the studies this acceptance is based on to try to determine whether it is justified. It's what we do here. If you don't like anyone to question accepted wisdom this is probably not the forum for you.

 

[MikeG]

.........I am an American and there are other immigrants from around the globe and people from other countries that live and work in America. "The current population of the United States of America is 326,176,197 as of Wednesday, May 17, 2017, based on the latest United Nations estimates." ..........

What has this got to do with anything?

 

[Roboramma]

Ziggurat, you stated to me, "A doctor has to pass a bar examine. Case in point: lawyers have to pass a bar examine, not doctors." My response to you , "The Mission of the Medical Board of California[-]The mission of the Medical Board of California is to protect health care consumers through the proper licensing and regulation of physicians and surgeons and certain allied health care professions and through the vigorous, objective enforcement of the Medical Practice Act, and to promote access to quality medical care through the Board's licensing and regulatory functions."

He wasn't disputing that doctors are licensed to practice medicine. He was disputing that they have to pass a "bar examine" [sic]. Your lack of clarity on the language shows a lack of knowledge. I believe that is the point he was making.

We all accept that there has been a certain amount of consensus in the medical community about the relationship between dietary salt and health. This thread is an attempt to look at the evidence for (or against) that supposition. Do you have anything to add to that? What specifically led doctors to make the recommendations that you keep posting?

 

[Ziggurat]

Ziggurat, I just don't have time to dilly dally around with you. I was born in America. My mother and father were born in America! There are many generations in my family and we have lived and died. All of us are and were United States citizens. I love my country. I personally wouldn't live anywhere else on the globe.

What does that have to do with anything? You think I like the government diet recommendations from other countries?

Furthermore, your comments (#85) to me are rude.

You accused me of ignorance. What kind of response did you expect?

Like I said, "There is no argument thus no fallacies!" I have no need to argue when I know the facts which I have already provided on the previous page.

First off, even when you know the fact, you still have to argue. Second, you DON'T know the facts, as you keep proving.

A good medical doctor PhD in America is highly respected in the scientific community

Sure, but 1) most doctors do not have PhD's, and 2) most doctors, including most doctors who have PhD's, do not devote much time to studying diet.

I personally have great doctors, but to you it means very little.

Of course. Why would it mean a lot?

Ziggurat, you stated to me, "A doctor has to pass a bar examine. Case in point: lawyers have to pass a bar examine, not doctors." My response to you , "The Mission of the Medical Board of California[-]The mission of the Medical Board of California is to protect health care consumers through the proper licensing and regulation of physicians and surgeons and certain allied health care professions and through the vigorous, objective enforcement of the Medical Practice Act, and to promote access to quality medical care through the Board's licensing and regulatory functions."

I never said they weren't licensed. I said they didn't pass a bar examine. The medical licensing exam is not a bar exam. The bar exam is for lawyers.

(2) Ziggurat, you stated to me, "Government dietary recommendations are crap." I have to disagree with you! As I presented on the previous page, and look at the bottom of the page you will see: United States Department of Health and Human Services and the National Institutes of Health (3) That website from America is highly respected by the global scientific community!

If I tell you that government diet recommendations are crap, presenting me with those recommendations doesn't constitute a counter-argument. Saying they are respected doesn't constitute a counter-argument. You need to show, with evidence, that those recommendations are correct.

You have consistently failed to do so.

Edited by kmortis: 

Removed previously moderated content and response

 

[bigred]

Absolutely agree with you. In many of the higher quality/chef run restaurants I've been to, condiments are not present on the table. Requesting salt or pepper should be met with a scowl.

Only if one thinks a restaurant should be run by snooty obnoxious aholes. Last time I checked, I was paying for the meal. (PS I never use table salt, just a general comment)

beer is perfect.

You either have extremely low standards for beer or have been extremely lucky in what you've tried.

I used always to have a small (57ml) bottle of Tabasco about my person in case of blandness.

Interesting, as I find tabasco extremely bland with basically zero heat. (And yet jalapenos kick my tail, go figure)

 

[Skeptical Greg]

Pixel.........some foods are never salted, anywhere, in any circumstances. As I said, veggies, be they steamed, boiled or microwaved, aren't seasoned. If you know you like your veggies salted, it is a waste of time tasting them first, as you know full well that they won't be seasoned.

Anything to back up that claim?

 

[fuelair]

I thought that was just urban legend and people being scared of "chemicals."

Does it happen with other foods high in glutamic acid, like mushrooms, seaweed, aged cheeses, tomatoes, etc.?

Never had it and no fear/concern with food chemicals ( the only person as a chemist that I knew who was working on food additive research was looking into one of the artificial drink sweeteners) - I at the time was eating a lot of Bounty (Campbells) Beef Stew and added a goodly sprinkle of MSG each time. Had been doing it for around a year and a little when the attack came. I had some a couple more times and got the same feeling, so, not being stupid I dropped the MSG. Without it, the Bounty did not taste as good, but no more pain/heat/buzziness. At that time I did not eat Chinese food much so nothing to check further.....................

 

[fuelair]

Only if one thinks a restaurant should be run by snooty obnoxious aholes. Last time I checked, I was paying for the meal. (PS I never use table salt, just a general comment)


You either have extremely low standards for beer or have been extremely lucky in what you've tried.



Interesting, as I find tabasco extremely bland with basically zero heat. (And yet jalapenos kick my tail, go figure)

Tabasco is not that hot (though outside of Indian foods, English stuff is usually (or used to be ) pretty bland (think boiled meats as opposed to grilled).

As to peppers straight I love Jalapenos and I can safely move up the scale a bit too. However, for Habaneros it is thinly diced and not too much!!!

 

[The Don]

Tabasco is not that hot (though outside of Indian foods, English stuff is usually (or used to be ) pretty bland (think boiled meats as opposed to grilled).

Boiled meat ? That doesn't sound like the British food that I've been eating for the last 50 years. That's not to say we don't have stews and casseroles or that every dish involves the complex layering of flavours but British food isn't that different from the meat-and-potatoes that my US in-laws of German, Scandinavian and Irish ancestry eat regularly.

In fact if you wanted to stereotype British cuisine with a single cooking method, fried (deep or pan) would IMO be it.

As to peppers straight I love Jalapenos and I can safely move up the scale a bit too. However, for Habaneros it is thinly diced and not too much!!!

If this link is to be believed, Tabasco and jalapenos are about the same on the Scoville scale. Of course with Tabasco you also get salt and vinegar adding flavour to the (tabasco) chilies.

https://www.chilliworld.com/factfile/scoville-scale

I'm not a "hot head" by any means and Tabasco is sufficiently hot to act as a condiment. I've tried sauces further up the heat scale and find that, as a condiment, they are too hot and actually impair my enjoyment. As ingredients, they may have their uses, but sloshing Mad Dog Inferno onto a slice of pizza or into a tuna and sweetcorn sandwich will IMO ruin it.

 

[casebro]

There is a lot more to 'spicey' than just chiles.

Being a Hot Head makes about as much sense as putting garlic on your corn flakes. Or sugar in EVERYTHING.

Hey, there's other flavors. Just look at the spice department.

 

[rustypouch]

Never had it and no fear/concern with food chemicals ( the only person as a chemist that I knew who was working on food additive research was looking into one of the artificial drink sweeteners) - I at the time was eating a lot of Bounty (Campbells) Beef Stew and added a goodly sprinkle of MSG each time. Had been doing it for around a year and a little when the attack came. I had some a couple more times and got the same feeling, so, not being stupid I dropped the MSG. Without it, the Bounty did not taste as good, but no more pain/heat/buzziness. At that time I did not eat Chinese food much so nothing to check further.....................

Which I don't understand, as Campbell's canned products are full of MSG...

 

[casebro]

Which I don't understand, as Campbell's canned products are full of MSG...

One of my problems is Tyramine, a by-product of fermentation. Soy sauce gets me, plus a couple of processed things. Modified food starch is one, Maltodextrin is another. So, maybe some people have a tyramine problem, as a by-product of making MSG out of- well, wheat has a lot of glutamine, might be a good feed stock for MSG production. I bet there are other sources of MSG, not made from high tyramine foods? Campbells uses one product, Accent a different source?

Tyramine is made from tyrosine by fermentation that umm decarboxylates it?

Big picture- How many people with MSG probs and people with Gluten/wheat probs actually have the same other prob? Look up <cheese headache>