Why can't Corbyn connect with public?

[The Don]

Well indeed, if his summary of where he thinks British elections can be won from is anything to go by. I say again, no British elections are ever won from the extremes, either right or left. You have to take the vast bulk of the middle ground of the electorate with you if you want to win, and that vast bulk doesn't live anywhere near the left wing or the right wing of politics. Corbyn, and anyone who advocates for Corbyn's brand of politics, can never win a UK election, and anyone who thinks otherwise is indeed a fool.

And IMO over the last 40 years or so, the centre of British politics has drifted to the right economically so proposing 70's style left wing policies now will be even less likely to result in a win than doing so 40 years ago.

 

[The Don]

If you read it in the Daily Mail you wouldn't believe it

I don't even believe the date on the masthead unless I get independent verification

 

[Tolls]

So what was the proven right bit in reference to?

It's in reference to the idea that moving to a 70s-style socialist platform is a vote winner.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

And IMO over the last 40 years or so, the centre of British politics has drifted to the right economically so proposing 70's style left wing policies now will be even less likely to result in a win than doing so 40 years ago.

You can't win from the extremes says someone living in a country where the government is about to romp home from the extreme right.

The Don. Don't you think that the drift to the right should be countered rather than ridden?

 

[The Don]

You can't win from the extremes says someone living in a country where the government is about to romp home from the extreme right.

Maybe from your perspective it's "extreme right" but from an international perspective the UK Conservative Party is right wing but not exceptionally so.

The Don. Don't you think that the drift to the right should be countered rather than ridden?

There are two basic ways to do that, make the case before the election or to get elected on a "lie" and then implement your policies on the sly and convince the public that it was a good idea.

The Blair government did the latter. After assuring the public that it was going to be Tory "business as usual" they made massive investments in public services and in implementing policies to reduce poverty and child poverty in particular.

The Corbynite Labour party seems intent on the former. The problem is that the majority of the UK population do not seem receptive to the message and they don't have the right person or people to deliver it.

tl;dr version: It can, but not the way Labour are doing it.

 

[baron]

You can't win from the extremes says someone living in a country where the government is about to romp home from the extreme right.

How do you expect anyone to take such nonsense seriously?

 

[3point14]

The Corbynite Labour party seems intent on the former. The problem is that the majority of the UK population do not seem receptive to the message and they don't have the right person or people to deliver it.

I don't know that there is such a thing as a 'right' person to do this. I don't think the UK press and, more to the point, the owners of the UK press, would ever give favourably publicity to anyone to the left* of Blair.




*Usual caveats apply.

 

[MikeG]

Here's the Guardian Poll Tracker (poll of polls):

[imgw=640]http://i.imgur.com/t7Pg0EJ.jpg[/imgw]

I've simply added the dashed lines, one showing Labour support at the last election, the other showing support when Corbyn took over the leadership, plus the red arrow showing the point at which the latter happened. Even with an upswing in the last week or two, they aren't even back to the levels in the polls that they were at when Corbyn took over. The mountain they have to climb is of their own making.

Remember that polls have generally underestimated Tory support, and over estimated Labour's.

You might also take a quick look at Ukip's support, and have a bit of a giggle.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Maybe from your perspective it's "extreme right" but from an international perspective the UK Conservative Party is right wing but not exceptionally so.

It's at least, if not more, extreme right than Corbyn is extreme left. That's the irony of the argument. What you have is a bunch of right wingers moaning that anyone to the left of them are a bunch of Commies while proposing policies that should have people up in arms but don't. Basically the US.

There are two basic ways to do that, make the case before the election or to get elected on a "lie" and then implement your policies on the sly and convince the public that it was a good idea.

The Blair government did the latter. After assuring the public that it was going to be Tory "business as usual" they made massive investments in public services and in implementing policies to reduce poverty and child poverty in particular.

The Corbynite Labour party seems intent on the former. The problem is that the majority of the UK population do not seem receptive to the message and they don't have the right person or people to deliver it.

tl;dr version: It can, but not the way Labour are doing it.

The thing is that even if you agree with your position that Blair was a secret leftie (which I don't) then I don't believe lying to the electorate is an effective way to move public opinion. In fact we have seen that. The Blair government didn't pave the way for a resurgence of centre left politics. It pretty much destroyed it.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Oh that's too funny by far. You insult May and Tories in general, yet my characterisation of Chomsky is an ad hom.

By the way, it is my sincere belief. I have followed his rants for a long time and have formed this opinion long before he put his "weight" behind Corbyn.

I don't have a problem with insults. I have a problem with ONLY insults and completely ignoring the issues and policies.

 

[The Don]

It's at least, if not more, extreme right than Corbyn is extreme left. That's the irony of the argument. What you have is a bunch of right wingers moaning that anyone to the left of them are a bunch of Commies while proposing policies that should have people up in arms but don't. Basically the US.

And yet here you are calling Conservatives extreme right

The thing is that even if you agree with your position that Blair was a secret leftie (which I don't) then I don't believe lying to the electorate is an effective way to move public opinion. In fact we have seen that. The Blair government didn't pave the way for a resurgence of centre left politics. It pretty much destroyed it.

I disagree about him not changing public opinion, his reversal of Tory cuts to the NHS and education and his introduction of working tax credits enjoyed and enjoy high levels of public support.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

And yet here you are calling Conservatives extreme right

They are on the extreme right of the spectrum in the UK right now. If Corbyn is extreme left then the Tories are extreme right. If you cannot win an election from the extremes then the Tories will lose the next election. Do you think the Tories will lose the next election? Because I don't. I don't think the person who said you can't win from the extremes does either.

So that point was a meaningless soundbite.

ETA:

Do you think the current Tories are not further right than Corbyn is left? We have a government who are committed to withdrawing the UK from the EU beyond any reasoned economic argument purely to be able to impose stringent immigration controls which at times have included proposals such as compiling lists of foreign workers, including students in immigration caps and using current EU citizens as bargaining chips in negotiations. Not to mention that the government is led by a woman who was famous for her immigrant detector vans.

They want to remove themselves from the ECHR so they can remove human rights from their citizens. They want to reduce workers protections so they can be better exploited by their employers.

Theresa May has a voting record which includes voting against equality for homosexuals and in favour of discrimination.

I disagree about him not changing public opinion, his reversal of Tory cuts to the NHS and education and his introduction of working tax credits enjoyed and enjoy high levels of public support.

And that's why Labour did so well after he left. He laid the groundwork for decades of future success by moving public opinion leftwards.

 

[Aber]

They are on the extreme right of the spectrum in the UK right now. If Corbyn is extreme left then the Tories are extreme right.

You're conflating 2 different ideas.

Nobody disagrees that the Conservatives are on the right, and Labour on the left. EDIT: This is almost the definition of right and left in UK politics.

Corbyn is on the extreme left of the Labour party (as he has been since 1983), and the draft manifesto reflects his team's views.

May is NOT on the extreme right of the Conservative party, and the manifesto will probably reflect her views, not the extreme right.

 

[MikeG]

And yet here you are calling Conservatives extreme right .......

Some people think that anyone to the right of Karl Marx is an extremist.

Theresa May's speech at Downing Street when she took office was very One Nation Tory, so not right wing at all. It could have been made by any centre left politician. Until now she hasn't had to flesh out actual policies to bring her stated vision into practise, which is why the Conservative manifesto should be interesting. However, if they act as she has said they will act, then they'll simply occupy the centre ground vacated as the loonies have marched Labour leftwards.

 

[NWO Sentryman]

And yet here you are calling Conservatives extreme right



I disagree about him not changing public opinion, his reversal of Tory cuts to the NHS and education and his introduction of working tax credits enjoyed and enjoy high levels of public support.

Blair privatised the NHS to a far greater extent than Thatcher did, largely through PFI.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

You're conflating 2 different ideas.

Nobody disagrees that the Conservatives are on the right, and Labour on the left. EDIT: This is almost the definition of right and left in UK politics.

Corbyn is on the extreme left of the Labour party (as he has been since 1983), and the draft manifesto reflects his team's views.

May is NOT on the extreme right of the Conservative party, and the manifesto will probably reflect her views, not the extreme right.

No this is not what I am saying and it wasn't what I was arguing with either.

The Labour party manifesto is not an extreme left one by any sensible measure. It can only be defined as such if you take the centre to be somewhere off to the right. It may be further to the left than Blair but that's fairly meaningless.

On the other hand, the Tories are proposing some fairly extreme right stuff and May has been a cheerleader for some pretty extreme stuff in the past. She and her party are further right than Labour are left currently. By that measure if Labour are too extreme left to be elected then the Tories should be too extreme right to be elected also. But they aren't.

The whole thing just collapses back into the idea that you can't change what the electorate think so you need to just pander to them. That any left of centre policies are too difficult and challenging for the electorate and should be abandoned to win votes. But all that does is exacerbate the problem in my view.

We've been through that cycle. Blair shifted the whole spectrum to the right by abandoning the left and got himself elected. Well done. Then he went away. But the shift in spectrum didn't. So now the 'centrist' position is a moderate right one. And the 'moderate right' of Theresa May is actually fairly well along that spectrum short of outright loonies.

On the other hand anything moderate left is now considered extreme lefty lunacy.

Blair looks like he has killed the Labour Party and potentially left-wing politics in England and Wales. Even if you were to find a clone of him to lead Labour now they'd still be in trouble. And that's what people seem to be failing to see.

There is something more fundamental going on here and pointing the finger at Corbyn is missing that. Sadly there doesn't seem to be anyone within Labour who is up to the job of addressing this issue and finding a way through it.

 

[NWO Sentryman]

No this is not what I am saying and it wasn't what I was arguing with either.

The Labour party manifesto is not an extreme left one by any sensible measure. It can only be defined as such if you take the centre to be somewhere off to the right. It may be further to the left than Blair but that's fairly meaningless.

On the other hand, the Tories are proposing some fairly extreme right stuff and May has been a cheerleader for some pretty extreme stuff in the past. She and her party are further right than Labour are left currently. By that measure if Labour are too extreme left to be elected then the Tories should be too extreme right to be elected also. But they aren't.

The whole thing just collapses back into the idea that you can't change what the electorate think so you need to just pander to them. That any left of centre policies are too difficult and challenging for the electorate and should be abandoned to win votes. But all that does is exacerbate the problem in my view.

We've been through that cycle. Blair shifted the whole spectrum to the right by abandoning the left and got himself elected. Well done. Then he went away. But the shift in spectrum didn't. So now the 'centrist' position is a moderate right one. And the 'moderate right' of Theresa May is actually fairly well along that spectrum short of outright loonies.

On the other hand anything moderate left is now considered extreme lefty lunacy.

Blair looks like he has killed the Labour Party and potentially left-wing politics in England and Wales. Even if you were to find a clone of him to lead Labour now they'd still be in trouble. And that's what people seem to be failing to see.

There is something more fundamental going on here and pointing the finger at Corbyn is missing that. Sadly there doesn't seem to be anyone within Labour who is up to the job of addressing this issue and finding a way through it.

But you don't understand that he won 3 general elections! And he also set up sure start, which means he is the greatest prime minister ever.

 

[MikeG]

Blair privatised the NHS to a far greater extent than Thatcher did, largely through PFI.

You want to be just a little cautious of that claim. PFI and PPP were mainly about capital spending, and ongoing building, plant and equipment servicing and maintenance contracts. They weren't really about "service delivery" in terms of health care professionals dealing with patients. Capital projects are something that governments have proven themselves incredibly poor at delivering, and so although I don't seek to defend PFI or PPP, the idea that government should be designing, commissioning and contracting building projects around the NHS estate is not credible. These are projects which must be delivered by the private sector if you want buildings on time and on budget.

 

[The Don]

Blair privatised the NHS to a far greater extent than Thatcher did, largely through PFI.

And PFI, together with Iraq were the two worst things that the Blairite Labour Party ever did and was the reason why I didn't vote for them in 2010.

That said, the use of PFI allowed new hospitals to be built (albeit at a ridiculous long term price).

 

[The Don]

No this is not what I am saying and it wasn't what I was arguing with either.

The Labour party manifesto is not an extreme left one by any sensible measure. It can only be defined as such if you take the centre to be somewhere off to the right. It may be further to the left than Blair but that's fairly meaningless.

Why ? Blair was a pretty good example of a centreist IMO.

OTOH I'd have thought that calling for re-natonalisation of key industries is a pretty left wing policy

On the other hand, the Tories are proposing some fairly extreme right stuff and May has been a cheerleader for some pretty extreme stuff in the past. She and her party are further right than Labour are left currently. By that measure if Labour are too extreme left to be elected then the Tories should be too extreme right to be elected also. But they aren't.

Got any specific examples of the extreme right stuff ?

edited to add.....

Not that I don't think the Tories aren't a right wing party with some pretty horrible polices but I don't seem as being particularly more right wing than in the last couple or three decades.