UK General Election

Yeah, that was a surprise and disappointment for sure. I hope he has grown past that when the time comes.
 
Archie Gemmill Goal said:
If you really think a vote for Labour is worse than a vote for Tory then I can only despair but let's not try to hide the decision behind such nonsense. If you would prefer TM to JC in charge then go for it. But those people who make that decision are 100% to blame for their decision and its implications.
Click to expand...

Have I ever said this ?
 
Scuttlebut within the Labour party (I don't know how reliable it is) is that the troubles in Wales are arising from a confluence of three things: Jermery Corbyn, the problems of the Welsh Labour party and Welsh leave voters who traditionally voted Labour but feel that current MPs who voted against Brexit need to be "punished" for not accepting the will of the people.
 
Archie Gemmill Goal said:
Of course there have always been Welsh Tories but my point was that its not an honest comparison when people talking about how the Tories winning in Wales was unthinkable a while ago. It's a very different situation now.

It's not about 'blame' necessarily as it is about acknowledging the causes and having an honest discussion.

The idea that solid Labour voters are suddenly turning to Tory or UKIP because of Jeremy Corbyn or that they can be won back by a 'centre left' politician in a nice suit (and by centre left we of course mean centre right) is a convenient narrative but not necessarily one that makes a hell of a lot of sense.

Of course it could be that the Welsh people are really that stupid but I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt.
Click to expand...

But that's still saying "it's the English". Well, that or the Welsh are dim or something.

Did you know that there were more Tory Welsh MPs voted in in 1983 (with fewer Welsh seats available) than there are now, for example?

Or did all the English "migrants" turn up for a few years in the 80s and then sod off for the next 20 or so (the Tory resurgence in MP count started in 05, from zero in 00)?

Or possibly, just possibly, the 80s is no longer having as much of an effect on how people vote there.
 
The Don said:
Have I ever said this ?
Click to expand...

Not directly but you have very carefully danced around it.

You have said you could never vote Labour because of Corbyn.

I don't think you have ever said you could never vote Tory.

And your logic for why these Welsh voters are voting Tory was because the other options are all so bad but again conveniently missed out that the Tory option is worse.

So there are only a limited number of conclusions there - either you do think that Tory is a better outcome than Labour, or you disagree with these voters who are voting Tory and don't actually think they have a good reason for doing so.
 
Archie Gemmill Goal said:
Not directly but you have very carefully danced around it.
Click to expand...

That's your opinion and one I do not share

Archie Gemmill Goal said:
You have said you could never vote Labour because of Corbyn.
Click to expand...

Well strictly speaking I cannot currently vote Labour because of its stance on Brexit but that's largely to the influence of the Corbynites

Archie Gemmill Goal said:
I don't think you have ever said you could never vote Tory.
Click to expand...

I've also probably never said that I couldn't drown a sackful of puppies just for gits and shiggles - because it's not even something I'd consider.

Archie Gemmill Goal said:
And your logic for why these Welsh voters are voting Tory was because the other options are all so bad but again conveniently missed out that the Tory option is worse.
Click to expand...

Errrr no. I was pointing out the logic for not voting Labour. I was saying that I couldn't blame the Welsh for not voting Labour given the direction in which Corbyn and his cronies have taken the party.

Who to vote for instead of Labour is an entirely different question and in my case it comes down to three options.

  • Plaid - whose central policy, independence for Wales, I'm not in favour of
  • LibDems - Under the FPTP system a wasted vote in many constituencies
  • Spoil the paper - actually a wasted vote

Archie Gemmill Goal said:
So there are only a limited number of conclusions there - either you do think that Tory is a better outcome than Labour, or you disagree with these voters who are voting Tory and don't actually think they have a good reason for doing so.
Click to expand...

Right now I'd still judge that voting Labour is a less bad outcome than Tory but given that both parties are pro-Brexit then on the single most important issue the UK has faced in my lifetime and likely the most important in what remains of it, they are both counter to my own views.

With the Tories we have a bunch where their hearts are IMO in the wrong place but at least they have pockets of competence when it comes to governing (though they are rapidly shrinking as they cave to certain vested interests). With Labour we have a bunch where their hearts are largely in the right place (though I agree that recent anti-immigrant rhetoric is worrying) but who appear to be wholly unfit to govern. In a choice where these are the only two options I cannot honestly tell you where I would cast my vote. Fortunately I have more options than that.
 
Camillus said:
Scuttlebut within the Labour party (I don't know how reliable it is) is that the troubles in Wales are arising from a confluence of three things: Jermery Corbyn, the problems of the Welsh Labour party and Welsh leave voters who traditionally voted Labour but feel that current MPs who voted against Brexit need to be "punished" for not accepting the will of the people.
Click to expand...

I'm sure that the Corbynites would like to spread that message as away of keeping those critical of Jeremy's Brexit enthusiasm from speaking out.
 
Camillus said:
Scuttlebut within the Labour party (I don't know how reliable it is) is that the troubles in Wales are arising from a confluence of three things: Jermery Corbyn, the problems of the Welsh Labour party and Welsh leave voters who traditionally voted Labour but feel that current MPs who voted against Brexit need to be "punished" for not accepting the will of the people.
Click to expand...

I don't know what you mean by "scuttlebut". Is this an actual source?

I think there many be a 4th factor at work from those listed. Historically, voting Labour has been a matter of pride, honour and tradition in parts of Wales (as with elsewhere in the country). This has meant extreme reluctance to break ranks. However, when so many Welsh Labour supporters found themselves at odds with the party over Brexit, the bonds of allegiance were broken. Since the vote, the leadership of the party has continued to snipe at Brexiteers, further alienating the voters. "Why should I vote for them if all they do is slag me off?" is the logic, I guess. The referendum has freed people to vote how they want, rather than vote how they feel they should.
 
In another masterstroke from the political Titan The Guardian are reporting that Corbyn will apparently not take part in any TV debates if his good friend Mrs May won't:

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...b0e81396c86de5#block-59009dbee4b0e81396c86de5

I assume there must be some logic behind turning down the good publicity of doing a debate that the PM refuses to deign to do, but for the life of me I can't think of any reason not to do it beyond staggering political incompetence.
 
Well that leaves us with the thrilling prospect of watching Farron taking on Nuttall. I'm busy that night, unfortunately.
 
Was it here that someone suggested a HIGNFY style tub-of-lard replacement for May? Maybe a pair of shoes or something?

Wonder what they could use for Jeremy. Answers on a postcard.
 
He's an allotmenteer. A pile of well-rotted horse manure would seem apt.
 
The Don said:
That's your opinion and one I do not share



Well strictly speaking I cannot currently vote Labour because of its stance on Brexit but that's largely to the influence of the Corbynites



I've also probably never said that I couldn't drown a sackful of puppies just for gits and shiggles - because it's not even something I'd consider.



Errrr no. I was pointing out the logic for not voting Labour. I was saying that I couldn't blame the Welsh for not voting Labour given the direction in which Corbyn and his cronies have taken the party.

Who to vote for instead of Labour is an entirely different question and in my case it comes down to three options.

  • Plaid - whose central policy, independence for Wales, I'm not in favour of
  • LibDems - Under the FPTP system a wasted vote in many constituencies
  • Spoil the paper - actually a wasted vote



Right now I'd still judge that voting Labour is a less bad outcome than Tory but given that both parties are pro-Brexit then on the single most important issue the UK has faced in my lifetime and likely the most important in what remains of it, they are both counter to my own views.

With the Tories we have a bunch where their hearts are IMO in the wrong place but at least they have pockets of competence when it comes to governing (though they are rapidly shrinking as they cave to certain vested interests). With Labour we have a bunch where their hearts are largely in the right place (though I agree that recent anti-immigrant rhetoric is worrying) but who appear to be wholly unfit to govern. In a choice where these are the only two options I cannot honestly tell you where I would cast my vote. Fortunately I have more options than that.
Click to expand...

OK then I think I misunderstood what you meant when you said you can't blame the electorate. Because I damn well will blame anyone who votes Tory for the Tory policies that they vote for. And I won't take 'but Corbyn...' as an excuse.'

At the minute I am torn between 2nd place Lib Dem as a futile tactical vote, or Green as a futile 'the rest are so dreadful I might as well vote for them' vote.

I think I will hold my nose and vote Lib Dem. Even though I promised I never would again. Although they haven't yet convinced me that they won't just throw their lot in with the Tories again.
 
Mid said:
In another masterstroke from the political Titan The Guardian are reporting that Corbyn will apparently not take part in any TV debates if his good friend Mrs May won't:

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...b0e81396c86de5#block-59009dbee4b0e81396c86de5

I assume there must be some logic behind turning down the good publicity of doing a debate that the PM refuses to deign to do, but for the life of me I can't think of any reason not to do it beyond staggering political incompetence.
Click to expand...

Can anyone answer: "If Jeremy were actually in the pay of the Conservatives, what would he be doing differently?"
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom