Getaway driver arrested for murder.

[EHocking]

Does it have anything to do with being kicked in the Gorbals?

No, that is the noise you make after being kicked.

 

[Giz]

Does it have anything to do with being kicked in the Gorbals?

You only want to be kicked out of the gorbals.

 

[quadraginta]

Not to start a polemic, but is there a breakdown of ethnic groups involved? I'm just curious as to why we don't have this problem in Canada.

According to this source, Statistics Canada, Canada had 444 (police reported) burglaries per 100,000 people in 2015.

According to this source, FBI 2015 Crime In The U.S., the U.S. had 492 (police reported) burglaries per 100,000 people in 2015.

Although Canada certainly has the win for a somewhat lower incidence, it doesn't seem to be so nearly absent as you indicate.

 

[Belz...]

According to this source, Statistics Canada, Canada had 444 (police reported) burglaries per 100,000 people in 2015.

According to this source, FBI 2015 Crime In The U.S., the U.S. had 492 (police reported) burglaries per 100,000 people in 2015.

Although Canada certainly has the win for a somewhat lower incidence, it doesn't seem to be so nearly absent as you indicate.

Are we still talking about home invasions, here?

 

[quadraginta]

Are we still talking about home invasions, here?

We're talking about people illegally breaking into other people's homes.

If you want to play trivial semantic games about what constitutes a "home invasion" and what doesn't, I'm not interested.

I hadn't noticed very many people in this thread trying to draw a fine distinction.

If you weren't talking about how exceedingly rare it was for people to have their homes broken into in Canada in the post I responded to, you were less than clear about specifically what you meant.

You're welcome to clarify that if you weren't, but I'll let you do your own digging into the statistics this time, because you will have made it evident that you are not responding with any sincerity.

 

[Belz...]

We're talking about people illegally breaking into other people's homes.

If you want to play trivial semantic games about what constitutes a "home invasion" and what doesn't, I'm not interested.

Trivial semantics game? Home invasions are done while the owners are in the house because stealing isn't the purpose of the crime. I think that's a pretty big distinction, don't you?

 

[quadraginta]

Trivial semantics game? Home invasions are done while the owners are in the house because stealing isn't the purpose of the crime. I think that's a pretty big distinction, don't you?

Sure. But it wasn't a distinction which was being made as part of this discussion. Not in general, since there was no indication that the perps in the OP had any idea that anyone was home when they broke in, much less that it was their intent to break in because someone was home.

Or in particular, since the post of yours which I responded to was in response to ... and quoted ... this post;

Well I'm only speaking of the UK, and in particular the North-West of England. I know for a fact that Liverpool and Manchester have suffered many spates of organized home-invasions and robberies, and then there's been the less-organized robberies, too, smaller gangs, crackheads, kids.

Footballers are often having their houses burgled, too, and that's almost always organized by known gangs.

There's a hell of a lot more going on than hysterics, which is why I wondered where Jules lived.

http://www.ukcrimestats.com/Police_Force/Merseyside_Police

Note the highlighted.

To which your response was ;

I'm just curious as to why we don't have this problem in Canada.

If you have only now suddenly come to the realization that you were only referring to "home invasions", and not anything else more generally referred to in that post which you chose to reply to, then you shouldn't be too surprised that other people were unaware of that exclusion as well.



ETA: And I'm not sure where you got the idea that "stealing isn't the purpose" of home invasions. It may not be the only purpose, but it is usually among any others.

 

[Belz...]

Sure. But it wasn't a distinction which was being made as part of this discussion.

That was the discussion I was having before you butted in, actually. We were talking about home invasions. I find it odd that you didn't quote this post instead:

The jury is out on that one, imho. If you can call the idea that home invasions happen a lot "hysterics," then I'm not sure if you truly do live in reality. Either that or you live in a very lovely gated community in Singapore like my brother does, lol.

This is where I entered the discussion with Gilbert on the matter. And it's definitely about home invasions, which is why that's what I was discussing.

I don't know why you're making this personal all of a sudden, but at least get your facts right.

 

[quadraginta]

That was the discussion I was having before you butted in, actually. We were talking about home invasions. I find it odd that you didn't quote this post instead:



This is where I entered the discussion with Gilbert on the matter. And it's definitely about home invasions, which is why that's what I was discussing.

I don't know why you're making this personal all of a sudden, but at least get your facts right.

I don't know why you think I'm making anything personal "all of a sudden".

Unless you are claiming that since I responded to a post of yours that somehow makes it "personal all of a sudden". If that is the case, then most of the posts on this board are "personal all of a sudden".

The post of Gilbert Syndrome's which you chose to respond to and quote clearly did not refer to home invasions exclusively. That's why I responded to it.

Your choices and the confusion engendered by them are not my fault or responsibility.

 

[Belz...]

I don't know why you think I'm making anything personal "all of a sudden".

Unless you are claiming that since I responded to a post of yours that somehow makes it "personal all of a sudden". If that is the case, then most of the posts on this board are "personal all of a sudden".

I'm refering to this:

We're talking about people illegally breaking into other people's homes.

If you want to play trivial semantic games about what constitutes a "home invasion" and what doesn't, I'm not interested.

I hadn't noticed very many people in this thread trying to draw a fine distinction.

If you weren't talking about how exceedingly rare it was for people to have their homes broken into in Canada in the post I responded to, you were less than clear about specifically what you meant.

You're welcome to clarify that if you weren't, but I'll let you do your own digging into the statistics this time, because you will have made it evident that you are not responding with any sincerity.

...and this:

If you have only now suddenly come to the realization that you were only referring to "home invasions" (snip)

...and I'm pretty sure you were aware of that. There's no need to do this out of the blue, unless your entire purpose was to confront and butt heads.

The post of Gilbert Syndrome's which you chose to respond to and quote clearly did not refer to home invasions exclusively.

No, but that's the benefit of having followed the conversation since the beginning, rather than butting in at the end and missing the start, which I've now provided to you, and you still haven't admitted that we were, in fact, discussing home invasions.

 

[quadraginta]

<snip>

...and I'm pretty sure you were aware of that.

Nope.

No, but that's the benefit of having followed the conversation since the beginning

<snip>

Been here since day one.

You claim the that your lack of clarity is a deficiency on my part.

I disagree.

Now, having gotten past that, how do "home invasion" statistics in Canada compare with other countries, like ... say ... the U.S.?


Is that also so vanishingly small as to be virtually non-existent?

 

[Belz...]

Been here since day one.

That's even worse, then.

Now, having gotten past that, how do "home invasion" statistics in Canada compare with other countries, like ... say ... the U.S.?

Seems hard to find hard numbers on short notice for some reason, but it's just not something I hear about here, while the statistics brought up for the UK seems to indicate that it's a serious problem. That was the nature of my question. I'm quite willing to be shown that it's also a serious problem over here. I just haven't seen anything to that effect.

 

[quadraginta]

Seems hard to find hard numbers on short notice for some reason,

<snip>

Here is some of the reason;

Few statistics are available on the crime of home invasion as such, because it is not defined as a crime in its own right in most jurisdictions. Statistics about home invasion found on the Internet are often false or misleading.[15] Persons arrested for what the police or media may refer to as "home invasion" are actually charged with crimes such as robbery, kidnapping, homicide, rape, or assault.

There isn' a consistent, coherent agreed upon definition of "home invasion", and most jurisdictions don't have a reporting slot to stick it in.

The colloquial definition seems to be something like

"Home invasion differs from burglary in that its perpetrators have a violent intent apart from the unlawful entry itself,

"
​

It isn't difficult to see how that would be hard to pin down in crime statistics.

The "intent" part means that the purpose of entering the home was to do violence. How is that intent determined?

If someone breaks into a home, discovers it is occupied, and then commits violence on the resident then that isn't a home invasion?

If someone breaks in with the intent to rape, and then steals whatever they can, is that a home invasion? Does that mean it isn't a burglary?

What if they knew the home was occupied and were planning to intimidate the people, but not actually harm them in any physical fashion? Not a home invasion?

It's a term with lots of emotional potential, and the media loves to pump it up, but there doesn't seem to be anything resembling a standard which can be used to pin down an actual rate of incidence.

I'm not sure it has a lot of value as a description of a specific class of crime, at least not one which can be easily analyzed yet.

 

[Belz...]

It's a term with lots of emotional potential

Yeah that's a big problem with media reporting. My understanding of the term "home invasion" is breaking into a home when the occupants are there in order to perform a crime on the occupants, be it murder, rape, terror or the like. Stealing from the home is more a bonus than the main goal.

 

[Gilbert Syndrome]

That's a burglary. I've been there, had that happen to me. ran off the burgler. No...the type of "Home Invasion" that scares the crap out of people is where the invaders come in knowing you are at home and intending to beat you up until you give them what they want - and then do gawd-knows what else. i don't worry about this "Home Invasion": I don't deal drugs and I don't hang around bad people or steal from people.

So...no problem.

I don't know why you think home invasions are only exclusive to people who're of bad ilk. I've already posted a few links to very recent examples of such things happening to very average people in one area of the North-West of England alone.

Like I said, some people are either naive to such things or they simply never hear about it, but in the UK, home invasions aren't something so rare that you could label a fear of it as being "hysterical."

I know of a fairly recent case of one thief being hacked up in prison due to a house he'd helped rob whilst the homeowners where there and it seems very likely that the thieves knew they were there, and were either after the cars, or something they'd spotted whilst casing the house. He hadn't actually hadn't known that the person who owned the house was in any way connected, which means these people are not merely targeting homes that belong to drug-dealers.

The Chinese family in my street, who had their home "invaded" during the day while they were home, where in no way connected to any bad activity, and I know of other cases where it seems these people where targeted for other reasons.

Home invasions may not be something to worry about where you personally reside, but they're not myth and they're certainly not legend.

 

[fuelair]

That's a burglary. I've been there, had that happen to me. ran off the burgler. No...the type of "Home Invasion" that scares the crap out of people is where the invaders come in knowing you are at home and intending to beat you up until you give them what they want - and then do gawd-knows what else. i don't worry about this "Home Invasion": I don't deal drugs and I don't hang around bad people or steal from people.

So...no problem.

I don't either, but just in case.............

 

[fuelair]

Jaggy bunnet: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=jaggy bunnet

 

[fuelair]

She has pleaded not guilty to the charges.

Won't help, people plead not guilty all the time when they are guilty as hell though they might not realize that until extra time is slipped in on their term for wasting the patience of the prosecutor and the judge!!!!!!

 

[mgidm86]

The confusion about the term "home invasion" is easily cleared up. First search result.

Legal definition of Home Invasion

https://definitions.uslegal.com/h/home-invasion/

Home invasion is generally an unauthorized and forceful entry into a dwelling. It is a crime governed by state laws, which vary by state. The following is an example of a Michigan statute dealing with home invasion:

...

(b) “Dangerous weapon” means 1 or more of the following:

1. A loaded or unloaded firearm, whether operable or inoperable.
2. A knife, stabbing instrument, brass knuckles, blackjack, club, or other object specifically designed or customarily carried or possessed for use as a weapon.
3. An object that is likely to cause death or bodily injury when used as a weapon and that is used as a weapon or carried or possessed for use as a weapon.
4. An object or device that is used or fashioned in a manner to lead a person to believe the object or device is an object or device described in subparagraphs (i) to (iii)

...


A person who breaks and enters a dwelling with intent to commit a felony, larceny, or assault in the dwelling, a person who enters a dwelling without permission with intent to commit a felony, larceny, or assault in the dwelling, or a person who breaks and enters a dwelling or enters a dwelling without permission and, at any time while he or she is entering, present in, or exiting the dwelling, commits a felony, larceny, or
​

A burglary is a home invasion, according to this. I don't see a requirement that the dwelling be occupied at the time. (see my next post)

 

[mgidm86]

That's a burglary. I've been there, had that happen to me. ran off the burgler. No...the type of "Home Invasion" that scares the crap out of people is where the invaders come in knowing you are at home and intending to beat you up until you give them what they want - and then do gawd-knows what else. i don't worry about this "Home Invasion": I don't deal drugs and I don't hang around bad people or steal from people.

So...no problem.

Burglaries in a home or dwelling are home invasions.

http://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/resources/difference-between-home-invasion-burglary.htm#

Often, burglary is punished more severely if the defendant goes into someone else’s home or dwelling. Some states have specific laws against home invasion burglaries. In most states, a dwelling includes a house or apartment, a dorm room, a houseboat, a hunting camp, or even an RV. Sometimes, burglary or home invasion is punished more severely if the building is occupied during the crime.

I do see sites that say a Home Invasion is when someone forces or breaks their way in, where burglary has no such requirement. States have different laws too. In my opinion, for the purpose of this discussion, the two are synonymous.

As the occupant, it would make no difference to me if it were a burglary or home invasion. I can shoot you if I want either way.