LDS II: The Mormons

Ol' Joe never came out and said he found the plates at what is presently known as Hill Cumorah. Very convenient. Yes, the church owns the hill and quite a bit of thr surrounding property.
 
JC, an illiterate woodworker from a tribe of goat-herders in the bronze age middle east, visited America, did he? OK, have we any evidence for this intriguing journey? What sort of boat did he use? How did they navigate? How come this isn't mentioned in the babble?
 
MikeG said:
JC, an illiterate woodworker from a tribe of goat-herders in the bronze age middle east, visited America, did he? OK, have we any evidence for this intriguing journey? What sort of boat did he use? How did they navigate? How come this isn't mentioned in the babble?
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He visited after his death and resurrection. See 3 Nephi 11 in the BOM.

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Billy Baxter said:
Horses in the BOM:

http://publications.mi.byu.edu/publications/transcripts/I00129-Horses_in_the_Book_of_Mormon.html

Horses are never mentioned after the time of Christ's visit to the Americas in the BOM.

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Their last mention in the BoM is AD26, which is thousands of years after they actually went extinct.

http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon011.htm

The main reason Charles even mentions a final date for horse use in the BOM is because he needs to push a theory that the domesticated horse became extinct sometime between "BOM times" and the Spanish invasion. In his mind, such an extinction would also help to explain away lack of evidence. Unfortunately for Charles' argument, the final mention of BOM horses at 26 AD does NOT equate to them going extinct at some later date. Charles likes to parrot his "NFNE" constantly, so I'll mock him by stating that "Just because the BOM doesn't mention horses beyond 26 AD doesn't mean they didn't continue to exist." In fact, the last mentions of horses indicates that they were plentiful:

"The Nephites being in one body, and having so great a number, and having reserved for themselves provisions, and HORSES and cattle, and flocks of every kind, that they might subsist for the space of SEVEN YEARS....." (3 Nephi 4:5, allegedly about 19 AD.)

"the people of the Nephites did all return to their own lands in the twenty and sixth year, every man, with his family, his flocks and his herds, his HORSES and his cattle....." (3 Nephi 6:1, allegedly about 26 AD.)

Both of these citations indicate that the "Nephites" not only had horses, but had them in great numbers, and took great care of them. After the war against the "Gadianton robbers," the "Nephites" returned to their own land, with their animals (including horses), and prospered. This is the last mention of horses in the BOM, and it gives no hint of their impending extinction. So, when Charles tries to assert that they somehow became extinct after that point, he is reading things into the BOM that are not there. He simply INVENTS the scenario that horses became extinct, when in fact there is nothing in the BOM to even hint at such an occurrence. To repeat: if there had been some catastrophic event that caused the extinction of every horse in the Western Hemisphere, then

a) such a catastrophe should have also killed off a number of other indigenous animals (such as elk, deer, or bison), and

b) the catastrophe had to be so mysterious and overwhelming as to disintegrate and wash away the skeleton of every dead horse in the hemisphere.

Of course, the prospect of such a catastophe that could "cherrypick" horses (and other exclusively-"BOM animals") and mark them for death, while leaving intact hundreds of species of other indigenous MesoAmerican animals (not to mention humans), is ridiculous.

Also, Charles' silly arguments on the horse issue don't even begin to explain the extinction of other exclusively-"BOM animals" such as cows, sheep, asses, and pigs. Archaelogy shows that none of those animals existed in Pre-Columbian America, but in fact were Old World animals imported by the Spaniards in the 1500's. The horse issue is but one small part of Charles' overall BOM problems---none of which are solved by his repeating false assertions about them.
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OK, despite the onus being on you, not me. We are digging skeletons up all the time. These are the remains of rotted humans, I hope you'll agree. None of them has moved, let alone traveled to America. In fact, in all human history, no-one has ever been restored to life after having died.
 
Pixel42 said:
Their last mention in the BoM is AD26, which is thousands of years after they actually went extinct.

http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon011.htm
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The cite you quote here is mere speculation. The author says it is improbable that horses went extinct after Christ. He doesn't know for a fact, nor does he provide objective, irrefutable evidence that they didn't go extinct at that time.

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MikeG said:
OK, despite the onus being on you, not me. We are digging skeletons up all the time. These are the remains of rotted humans, I hope you'll agree. None of them has moved, let alone traveled to America. In fact, in all human history, no-one has ever been restored to life after having died.
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unsupported opinion

prove it

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Billy Baxter said:
The cite you quote here is mere speculation. The author says it is improbable that horses went extinct after Christ. He doesn't know for a fact, nor does he provide objective, irrefutable evidence that they didn't go extinct at that time.

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There is ample evidence as to when horses when extinct in the Americas, which was thousands of years before the time of Christ. Had they survived after that time there would certainly be evidence of them, just as there is evidence of them before that time. Pretending otherwise is just silly and desperate.
 
Billy Baxter said:
unsupported opinion

prove it
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No. As I said, the onus is on you. The mundane experience is that everything that dies just rots away. If you are making the claim that there is some form of life after death, then the onus is entirely on you. Off you go............I can't wait to see what you come up with.:rolleyes:
 
Pixel42 said:
There is ample evidence as to when horses when extinct in the Americas, which was thousands of years before the time of Christ. Had they survived after that time there would certainly be evidence of them, just as there is evidence of them before that time. Pretending otherwise is just silly and desperate.
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As for me, I couldn't care less about whether horses were found in ancient mesoamerica. When I am brought to the judgment bar, will Jesus ask, "Billy, how did you treat the poor, the ill in the hospital, the prisoners in jail, the widows and orphans? And Billy, did you believe there were horses in ancient America? Did you spread the good word about whether these horses were brown, or white, or perhaps even speckled? Were some of these holy horses bigger than others, and if so, did you prove this to your fellow man?"

The BOM is about Christ and the gospel, not Animals-We-Believe-In.

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MikeG said:
No. As I said, the onus is on you. The mundane experience is that everything that dies just rots away. If you are making the claim that there is some form of life after death, then the onus is entirely on you. Off you go............I can't wait to see what you come up with.:rolleyes:
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no, you made the claim that no one ever came back to life after dying. If you want me to believe this, the onus is indeed on you.

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Billy Baxter said:
As for me, I couldn't care less about whether horses were found in ancient mesoamerica. When I am brought to the judgment bar, will Jesus ask, "Billy, how did you treat the poor, the ill in the hospital, the prisoners in jail, the widows and orphans? And Billy, did you believe there were horses in ancient America? Did you spread the good word about whether these horses were brown, or white, or perhaps even speckled? Were some of these holy horses bigger than others, and if so, did you prove this to your fellow man?"

The BOM is about Christ and the gospel, not Animals-We-Believe-In.

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Fair enough, but if a book makes patently false claims, you can't rely on anything in it. That's the end of the BoM for any neutral, and so it should be for you too.
 
Billy Baxter said:
no, you made the claim that no one ever came back to life after dying. If you want me to believe this, the onus is indeed on you.

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Don't be ridiculous. This is the default position. There has never been any evidence of anyone coming back to life after death. You are the one making the positive claim. Your onus.
 
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