The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 24

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Stacyhs said:
I doubt that he would still have been in jail for the B&E/POSP by the time Meredith was murdered. He'd have been charged, as you said, then most likely either been bonded out (do they do that in Italy/) or been released on his own recognizance.

But was he actually even charged with anything before being released?
When was he charged with possession/receipt of stolen property for which he was eventually convicted? Did they only press this charge after his arrest for murder?
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It does seem like Milan waited long after Rudy was convicted to charge him with criminal trespass and possession of stolen goods.
 
Stacyhs said:
If I remember correctly, the police believed they'd solved the case and arrested AK and RS even before the rape sample had been analyzed. If they'd waited, as they should have, all the forensic samples collected on Nov 2 would have shown only Guede's presence in the bedroom.
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Yeah but CODIS protocols are rapidly expanding to the point where you are seeing rapid DNA analysis and quickly running it against the database becoming standard procedure. Such a system would work fast enough to save the police a lot of trouble by preventing their "intuition" from having time to fester and think the woman clearly raped and murdered by a semen producing male was clearly the work of a female college student.
 
bagels said:
Yeah but CODIS protocols are rapidly expanding to the point where you are seeing rapid DNA analysis and quickly running it against the database becoming standard procedure. Such a system would work fast enough to save the police a lot of trouble by preventing their "intuition" from having time to fester and think the woman clearly raped and murdered by a semen producing male was clearly the work of a female college student.
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Yes, a lot of progress had been made in the last 10 years making this possible. Hopefully it will save more innocent people being the victims of police "intuition" and arrogance.
 
Stacyhs said:
I doubt that he would still have been in jail for the B&E/POSP by the time Meredith was murdered. He'd have been charged, as you said, then most likely either been bonded out (do they do that in Italy/) or been released on his own recognizance.

But was he actually even charged with anything before being released?
When was he charged with possession/receipt of stolen property for which he was eventually convicted? Did they only press this charge after his arrest for murder?
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There's no bail system in Italy. The alternative to remand in prison is house arrest. In some cases, other institutions may serve for detention (a healthcare facility, or a institution specifically for mothers with small children, for example). There is also the possibility, depending on the case, of the judge ordering the detention at a specific dwelling which is not the accused person's home. Non-prison detention may include monitoring such as electronic ankle alarms.

Procedural laws relating to precautionary measures including detention are covered in depth in CPP Articles 272 - 313.
 
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Numbers said:
There's no bail system in Italy. The alternative to remand in prison is house arrest. In some cases, other institutions may serve for detention (a healthcare facility, or a institution specifically for mothers with small children, for example). There is also the possibility, depending on the case, of the judge ordering the detention at a specific dwelling which is not the accused person's home. Non-prison detention may include monitoring such as electronic ankle alarms.

Procedural laws relating to pecautionary measures including detention are covered in depth in CPP Articles 272 - 313.
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Thanks Numbers.
 
"Italy sex case dropped because woman 'did not scream'

Italy's justice minister has said he will investigate after a court acquitted a man of sexually assaulting a woman because she did not scream.

The court in Turin ruled last month that the woman saying "enough" to her colleague who allegedly attacked her was not a strong enough reaction to prove she had been sexually assaulted.

The alleged victim is now facing charges for slander {calunnia}...."

Source: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39392147

This reminds me of the presumed scream of Meredith Kercher .... the Italian police and courts assume that a woman who is attacked will scream.

Could the reported case indicate misogyny exists in the Italian judicial system?
 
Numbers said:
"Italy sex case dropped because woman 'did not scream'

Italy's justice minister has said he will investigate after a court acquitted a man of sexually assaulting a woman because she did not scream.

The court in Turin ruled last month that the woman saying "enough" to her colleague who allegedly attacked her was not a strong enough reaction to prove she had been sexually assaulted.

The alleged victim is now facing charges for slander {calunnia}...."

Source: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39392147

This reminds me of the presumed scream of Meredith Kercher .... the Italian police and courts assume that a woman who is attacked will scream.

Could the reported case indicate misogyny exists in the Italian judicial system?[/QUOTE]

Nah. We all know that a woman wearing tight jeans just cannot be raped, only a woman would cover a body, and men are just putty in the hands of witchy women.
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Numbers said:
"Italy sex case dropped because woman 'did not scream'

Italy's justice minister has said he will investigate after a court acquitted a man of sexually assaulting a woman because she did not scream.

The court in Turin ruled last month that the woman saying "enough" to her colleague who allegedly attacked her was not a strong enough reaction to prove she had been sexually assaulted.

The alleged victim is now facing charges for slander {calunnia}...."

Source: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39392147

This reminds me of the presumed scream of Meredith Kercher .... the Italian police and courts assume that a woman who is attacked will scream.

Could the reported case indicate misogyny exists in the Italian judicial system?
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Unfortunately, this is not unusual, Germany only changed the law in the last year,
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36726095
prior to the change a woman had to defend herself for a charge of rape to be brought, just refusing consent was insufficient. This is akin to the previous 'woman can not be raped when wearing tight jeans' because they could not be removed without consent.

The link to the Kercher case is the assumption by the court that a woman faced with a bigger stronger man with a knife would be successfully able to defend herself having had a few karate lessons.
 
Planigale said:
Unfortunately, this is not unusual, Germany only changed the law in the last year,
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36726095
prior to the change a woman had to defend herself for a charge of rape to be brought, just refusing consent was insufficient. This is akin to the previous 'woman can not be raped when wearing tight jeans' because they could not be removed without consent.

The link to the Kercher case is the assumption by the court that a woman faced with a bigger stronger man with a knife would be successfully able to defend herself having had a few karate lessons.
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Consider that a woman finds herself awakened with a knife at her throat. The man says to her "Make a sound and I'll not only slice your throat but I'll kill your kids, too." What do you think she would do? Scream? Fight back? To assume that she would not scream or fight back means she is consenting to being raped is ludicrous.
 
acbytesla said:
But there is no evidence that Amanda's statement is the truth. IN FACT, we know it wasn't even close to the truth. Amanda doesn't say she was involved, she doesn't say Raffaele was involved, she doesn't say that Rudy was involved. She says she doesn't trust her statement and names Patrick very unconvincingly.

Let's see what is wrong with her statement.
  1. No evidence Amanda was there that night
  2. No evidence Raffaele was there that night
  3. Evidence that Patrick wasn't there.
  4. Nothing about the person who left his DNA inside Meredith.
  5. Nothing about the person that left bloody shoe prints throughout the house.
  6. Nothing about the person who left his bloody palmprint.
  7. Nothing about the person who was convicted.
  8. Not a word about Rudy.
Amanda's statement is false from beginning to end. Even Amanda shows in the wording that she doesn't believe it. This hardly supports your case.

Nevertheless;

It's a free country so you're still entitled to believe what you want. But don't pretend that the rest of us don't have very good rational logical reasons to accept the FINAL OUTCOME that Amanda and Raffaele are both innocent and Rudy is guilty.
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You are living in cloud Koo-Koo land. There is plenty of evidence that places her there. Even the perverse Marasca court could not resist taking potshots at Amanda's lies.

It makes it crystal clear she was present at the murder scene, washed off Mez' blood and covered up for Rudy.

You still haven't answered the question: 'Why did Amanda cover up for drifter/petty thief/burglar/ ne'ever do well rapist murderer Rudy?'


Answer the question.
 
Stacyhs said:
Consider that a woman finds herself awakened with a knife at her throat. The man says to her "Make a sound and I'll not only slice your throat but I'll kill your kids, too." What do you think she would do? Scream? Fight back? To assume that she would not scream or fight back means she is consenting to being raped is ludicrous.
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Yet you are happy to deny justice to a perfectly nice young woman that was Meredith Kercher.
 
Vixen said:
I haven't begged the question at all. I am citing a FINAL court ruling. It is a legal fact.


As sure as sure as a marriage or birth certificate is a legal fact.
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You are saying that the courts have established that AK covered up for Guede and that an Internet poster has no interest in justice being served. The first is untrue and the second is unlikely.
 
Planigale said:
Unfortunately, this is not unusual, Germany only changed the law in the last year,
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36726095
prior to the change a woman had to defend herself for a charge of rape to be brought, just refusing consent was insufficient. This is akin to the previous 'woman can not be raped when wearing tight jeans' because they could not be removed without consent.

The link to the Kercher case is the assumption by the court that a woman faced with a bigger stronger man with a knife would be successfully able to defend herself having had a few karate lessons.
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Some of the European countries have historically defined rape as a crime which requires the element of active resistance by the victim. The modern definition, as adopted by the Committee of Ministers of the Council of Europe and the ECHR, defines rape based on the violation of the will of the victim, or the victim's inability due to age or to physical or mental condition to give consent.

An ECHR judgment discussing the responsibilities of a State to effectively investigate and prosecute rape, and to define the crime of rape as based upon the lack of consent by the victim rather than on the lack of resistance by the victim is: M.C. v. BULGARIA 39272/98 04/12/2003. Here is a relevant excerpt:

182. .... The Court finds that the failure of the authorities in the applicant's case to investigate sufficiently the surrounding circumstances was the result of their putting undue emphasis on “direct” proof of rape. Their approach in the particular case was restrictive, practically elevating “resistance” to the status of defining element of the offence.
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You are correct that the Italian authorities attributed not only a scream but also an impossible capability of defense, considering her beginner's status in karate, to Meredith Kercher. And this hypothetical scream and presumed highly skilled resistance, not reliably supported by evidence, may be attributed to "traditional" assumptions of the authorities as well as their intent to fabricate a net that would ensnare Knox and Sollecito.
 
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Vixen said:
You are living in cloud Koo-Koo land. There is plenty of evidence that places her there. Even the perverse Marasca court could not resist taking potshots at Amanda's lies.
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You're the one living in Koo Koo land.
Vixen said:
It makes it crystal clear she was present at the murder scene, washed off Mez' blood and covered up for Rudy.
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No it does NOT. That was a hypothetical and no matter how many times you repeat it, it is a lie.
Vixen said:
You still haven't answered the question: 'Why did Amanda cover up for drifter/petty thief/burglar/ ne'ever do well rapist murderer Rudy?'
Answer the question.
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I answered it. Have a reading comprehension problem? no...No...NO....NO.....NO!!!
 
toto said:
You are saying that the courts have established that AK covered up for Guede and that an Internet poster has no interest in justice being served. The first is untrue and the second is unlikely.
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The first is absolutely true - have you not read the Marasca report?

Face it, Stacyhs is not bothered about innocence or guilt. She ignores all of the evidence and relies solely in the fact of her belonging to a peer group called Friends of Amanda Knox, which is the be-all and end-all.

It's too much cognitive dissonance to admit one has supported injustice and the release of the killers of a terribly nice innocent young woman.
 
Stacyhs said:
Consider that a woman finds herself awakened with a knife at her throat. The man says to her "Make a sound and I'll not only slice your throat but I'll kill your kids, too." What do you think she would do? Scream? Fight back? To assume that she would not scream or fight back means she is consenting to being raped is ludicrous.
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Vixen said:
Yet you are happy to deny justice to a perfectly nice young woman that was Meredith Kercher.
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What the in the world does my statement above have to do with Meredith Kercher?

Very weird response from you.
 
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