Merged A new argument pro Near Death Experiences

[Porpoise of Life]

You misunderstood me. Einstein's theory can explain gravity and speed better then Newton did, because Einstein's theories can explain the exotic phenomena or the extremes.
(huge masses and very high speeds)

I used the difference between these theories of gravity as an analogy to explain how Kastrups 'mental worlds-view' is a broader theory which can also explain NDE's and psychedelic trips to hyperreal worlds. The materialistic theories about consciousness and the brain cannot explain these phenomena.
We are talking here about a theory which explains the phenomena of the mind better.

We are not talking about a theory of gravity.

Ah, I'm sorry.
But the reason that Einstein's theory could explain phenomena Newton's could not, is because his calculations fit what was observed better. Without the math there is no explanatory power.

Now, I'm not asking for a mathematical formula here, but I am asking for more than just an assertion and vague feelgood stories.

Why do you reject what neurology has to say about consciousness and the brain, and what data has Kastrup provided to suggest his model is a better fit?

 

[MaartenVergu]

Nancy Rynes, a geologist who was a radical atheïst, writes about here Near Death Experience in her book 'Awakenings from the light':

"I did drift off as the anesthesiologist gave me my 'coctail'. But it wasn't to the gray state of nothingness that I expected.
I abruptly found myself standing in a spectacular landscape unlike any I'd ever experienced. Warm breezes drifted across my skin. Beautiful vistas of meadows and distant mountains surrounded me. And a pervasive, loving presence overwhelmed me in its intensity.

My mind tried to wrap itself around what was happening since it felt so real. In the back of my awareness I knew I had just gone into surgery, but I wonder If I had somehow dreamed the bike accident and my injuries. This place felt more real then anything on Earth."

This can not be explained by neuroscience at all.

 

[Darat]

Nancy Rynes, a geologist who was a radical atheïst, writes about here Near Death Experience in her book 'Awakenings from the light':

"I did drift off as the anesthesiologist gave me my 'coctail'. But it wasn't to the gray state of nothingness that I expected.
I abruptly found myself standing in a spectacular landscape unlike any I'd ever experienced. Warm breezes drifted across my skin. Beautiful vistas of meadows and distant mountains surrounded me. And a pervasive, loving presence overwhelmed me in its intensity.

My mind tried to wrap itself around what was happening since it felt so real. In the back of my awareness I knew I had just gone into surgery, but I wonder If I had somehow dreamed the bike accident and my injuries. This place felt more real then anything on Earth."

This can not be explained by neuroscience at all.

Er she gives the explanation in the first line of the text you quote!

 

[MaartenVergu]

You do not seem to know what general anesthesia does in the brain.

Before his near-death experience, Dr. Rajiv Parti was a wealthy man of science with a successful career as the Chief of Anesthesiology at the Bakersfield Heart Hospital in California.

Dr. Rajiv Parti's near-death experience brought him on a journey through the afterworld, leading to a spiritual awakening that transformed his career, his lifestyle, and even his fundamental beliefs. While he was under general anesthesia.

A CHIEF OF ANESTHESIOLOGY. No one knows more about the effects of general anesthesia then this man who was the chief of anesthesiology.

 

[Darat]

So, even from a trained scientist, you do not accept her observations?

Eh?

 

[Darat]

double

Since you've now edited your posts I should reply to the new version as well -

Eh? Eh?

 

[Donn]

Eh? Eh?

I feel this approaches the perfect reply to anything Maartenn posts.

 

[Darat]

You do not seem to know what general anesthesia does in the brain.

Before his near-death experience, Dr. Rajiv Parti was a wealthy man of science with a successful career as the Chief of Anesthesiology at the Bakersfield Heart Hospital in California.

Dr. Rajiv Parti's near-death experience brought him on a journey through the afterworld, leading to a spiritual awakening that transformed his career, his lifestyle, and even his fundamental beliefs. While he was under general anesthesia.

A CHIEF OF ANESTHESIOLOGY. No one knows more about the effects of general anesthesia then this man who was the chief of anesthesiology.

Well that's your 3rd edit of the post so I'll respond to this one as well.

That's a nice story - nothing to do with what you posted and I responded to but still a nice story.

I think we are now up to 3:

Eh? Eh? Eh?

 

[Mojo]

Does this mean that Maartenn has a triple-Eh? rating?

 

[ferd burfle]

<snip>

"I did drift off as the anesthesiologist gave me my 'coctail'. But it wasn't to the gray state of nothingness that I expected.
I abruptly found myself standing in a spectacular landscape unlike any I'd ever experienced. Warm breezes drifted across my skin. Beautiful vistas of meadows and distant mountains surrounded me. And a pervasive, loving presence overwhelmed me in its intensity.[/I

<snip>

This can not be explained by neuroscience at all.

But probably explained just fine by pharmacology. Do you know what this "coctail" was Maarten? Was it a general anesthetic or an injection given as part of the surgical prep? You don't know, do you? It's common practice to administer an injection of a benzodiazepine such as Ativan prior to surgery. In my experience, you remain conscious but the world is suddenly a very warm and wonderful place.

You are so quick to assume your desired conclusion you ignore other likely explanations. That's not a very skeptical approach you have there, Maarten.

 

[Slowvehicle]

Does this mean that Maartenn has a triple-Eh? rating?

"From the halls of montyzoomer, to the shores of triple-eh..."

 

[Cosmic Yak]

You do not seem to know what general anesthesia does in the brain.

Before his near-death experience, Dr. Rajiv Parti was a wealthy man of science with a successful career as the Chief of Anesthesiology at the Bakersfield Heart Hospital in California.

Dr. Rajiv Parti's near-death experience brought him on a journey through the afterworld, leading to a spiritual awakening that transformed his career, his lifestyle, and even his fundamental beliefs. While he was under general anesthesia.

A CHIEF OF ANESTHESIOLOGY. No one knows more about the effects of general anesthesia then this man who was the chief of anesthesiology.

Strange then, that he does not know this:

. Dreams and hallucinations under sedation or anesthesia are well documented.

http://www.medmerits.com/index.php/article/general_anesthesia_neurologic_complications/P4
https://www.caring.com/questions/hallucinations-after-surgery

 

[Porpoise of Life]

Well, Maartenn100's idea is of course that they're not dreams, but a reality more real than real reality. And because you can get to Ultra Reality by switching off parts of the brain, this proves to him that:
-the brain does not produce consciousness
-there's another reality you can travel to without your body.

He does not appear to accept the existence of dreams or hallucinations (when it suits him).

 

[Mojo]

He does not appear to accept the existence of dreams or hallucinations (when it suits him).

It's necessary for them not to exist so that the apparent experiences "cannot be explained by the current materialistic theories of the brain."

 

[Crossbow]

Nancy Rynes, a geologist who was a radical atheïst, writes about here Near Death Experience in her book 'Awakenings from the light':

"I did drift off as the anesthesiologist gave me my 'coctail'. But it wasn't to the gray state of nothingness that I expected.
I abruptly found myself standing in a spectacular landscape unlike any I'd ever experienced. Warm breezes drifted across my skin. Beautiful vistas of meadows and distant mountains surrounded me. And a pervasive, loving presence overwhelmed me in its intensity.

My mind tried to wrap itself around what was happening since it felt so real. In the back of my awareness I knew I had just gone into surgery, but I wonder If I had somehow dreamed the bike accident and my injuries. This place felt more real then anything on Earth."

This can not be explained by neuroscience at all.

You are quite wrong again because what happened to this person can be easily explained by neuroscience.

People often dream all sorts of things while under the effect of anesthetic.

 

[Belz...]

Consciousness is not the same as functions of the brain.

'Course it is.

You talk big about consciousness but you cannot even define it?

Dishonest. You're the one making a claim.

 

[MaartenVergu]

Think this through:

Why should a brain create 'a lifereview' where you can feel empathie for others, yourself and can have a metaposition. You get insight in relationships on a higher level.
When the brain is disfunctioning...

People who experienced a lifereview do not talk about hallucinations or constructed stories. They remember what they see in their lifereview and get more insight into the relationships they had with other people.

This is new information from an external source...

Such a complex phenomenon like a lifereview, cannot be explained by current neuroscience.

These people, who experienced a lifereview, got new information from an external source while their brains were disfunctioning. This new information has a great impact on how these experiencers live their lives differently from then on.

 

[abaddon]

Think this through:

Why should a brain create 'a lifereview' where you can feel empathie for others, yourself and can have a metaposition. You get insight in relationships on a higher level.
When the brain is disfunctioning...

People who experienced a lifereview do not talk about hallucinations or constructed stories. They remember what they see in their lifereview and get more insight into the relationships they had with other people.

This is new information from an external source...

Such a complex phenomenon like a lifereview, cannot be explained by current neuroscience.

These people, who experienced a lifereview, got new information from an external source while their brains were disfunctioning. This new information has a great impact on how these experiencers live their lives differently from then on.

Wrong. All of it.

 

[Darat]

Think this through:

Why should a brain create 'a lifereview' where you can feel empathie for others, yourself and can have a metaposition. You get insight in relationships on a higher level.
When the brain is disfunctioning...

People who experienced a lifereview do not talk about hallucinations or constructed stories. They remember what they see in their lifereview and get more insight into the relationships they had with other people.

This is new information from an external source...

Such a complex phenomenon like a lifereview, cannot be explained by current neuroscience.

These people, who experienced a lifereview, got new information from an external source while their brains were disfunctioning. This new information has a great impact on how these experiencers live their lives differently from then on.

Evidence?

 

[MaartenVergu]

Kastrup is destroying his own reputation with papers like this. Or rather, he has chosen to drop his science reputation in order to gain reputation with the woo crowd.

You did not even read the scientific resources of his paper? His many references to scientific research of many respectable neuroscientists?

Have you read and investigated all his scientific references before you jumped to conclusions?

These are his references. Are all these people 'destroying their own reputation' by publishing the results of their research?

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