Merged A new argument pro Near Death Experiences

[abaddon]

ok, maybe you are right. I can not find the quote or the article, but I thought that scientists assumed that drugs caused more bloodflow and more brain activity and not less.

So how do you think anaesthesia works?

In reality: when parts of the brain shut down: people seem to experience enhanced consciousness.

Those experiences are by your argument, consequences of a partially functional brain. Can you think of any circumstance where you would accept the claims of anyone who was thus cognitively disabled?

 

[Donn]

Enhanced consciousness to describe loss of facility. Amputation must be a limb upgrade.

 

[Porpoise of Life]

Those experiences are by your argument, consequences of a partially functional brain. Can you think of any circumstance where you would accept the claims of anyone who was thus cognitively disabled?

Well, when they agree with him of course

 

[MaartenVergu]

Ok, let me show you something:

This scientific research shows that the cause of self-trancendence experience is caused by a decrease or impairment of the right parietal lobe of the brain.

Neuroscientist Jill Bolte Tayler, who experienced 'self-trancendence' says in her book: "My stroke of insight': 'My spirit soared free like a great whale gliding through the sea of silent euphoria".

She thinks it's caused by an impairment of the left sight of the brain:

"On the morning of December 10, 1996, Jill Bolte Taylor, a thirty-seven-year-old Harvard-trained brain scientist, experienced a massive stroke when a blood vessel exploded in the left side of her brain. A neuroanatomist by profession, she observed her own mind completely deteriorate to the point that she could not walk, talk, read, write, or recall any of her life, all within the space of four brief hours. As the damaged left side of her brain--the rational, grounded, detail- and time-oriented side--swung in and out of function, Taylor alternated between two distinct and opposite realties: the euphoric nirvana of the intuitive and kinesthetic right brain, in which she felt a sense of complete well-being and peace; and the logical, sequential left brain, which recognized Jill was having a stroke, and enabled her to seek help before she was lost completely."

"Stroke of Insight" by Jill Bolte Tayler

I hope you don't ignore this contradiction in the scientific research...


You can see that a stroke in the right sight of the brain AND a stroke of the left sight of the brain causes the experience of self-trancendence.

My conclusion: the loss of brain functions in general will cause the individual going into trancendence.

Atman goes to Brahman.
The induvidual drop becomes part of the ocean.

 

[The Man]

Ok, let me show you something:

This scientific research shows that the cause of self-trancendence experience is caused by a decrease or impairment of the right parietal lobe of the brain.

Neuroscientist Jill Bolte Tayler, who experienced 'self-trancendence' says in her book: "My stroke of insight': 'My spirit soared free like a great whale gliding through the sea of silent euphoria".

She thinks it's caused by an impairment of the left sight of the brain:

"On the morning of December 10, 1996, Jill Bolte Taylor, a thirty-seven-year-old Harvard-trained brain scientist, experienced a massive stroke when a blood vessel exploded in the left side of her brain. A neuroanatomist by profession, she observed her own mind completely deteriorate to the point that she could not walk, talk, read, write, or recall any of her life, all within the space of four brief hours. As the damaged left side of her brain--the rational, grounded, detail- and time-oriented side--swung in and out of function, Taylor alternated between two distinct and opposite realties: the euphoric nirvana of the intuitive and kinesthetic right brain, in which she felt a sense of complete well-being and peace; and the logical, sequential left brain, which recognized Jill was having a stroke, and enabled her to seek help before she was lost completely."

"Stroke of Insight" by Jill Bolte Tayler

I hope you don't ignore this contradiction in the scientific research...


You can see that a stroke in the right sight of the brain AND a stroke of the left sight of the brain causes the experience of self-trancendence.

My conclusion: the loss of brain functions in general will cause the individual going into trancendence.

Atman goes to Brahman.
The induvidual drop becomes part of the ocean.

Once again, as Porpoise of Life noted before, as science considers one's sense of self to be a function of the brain. Then brain damage to areas relating to such a function would alter one's sense of self. Thus there is no "contradiction in the scientific research.". However, it would tend to contradict assertions that one's self or just sense of self originates somewhere besides the brain. Do you know of anyone here making such assertions that one's self or just sense of self originates somewhere besides the brain?

 

[Porpoise of Life]

My conclusion: the loss of brain functions in general will cause the individual going into trancendence.

What you appear to miss, is that a feeling of transcendence is not the same as actual metaphysical transcendence. Losing your sense of self due to a stroke does not mean you are communing with some overarching consciousness, it just means that the part of you that recognizes itself is malfunctioning.

If you believe that the brain does not produce consciousness, then how do you explain that strokes affecting particular areas have very predictable effects on the functioning of the mind?

 

[MaartenVergu]

What you appear to miss, is that a feeling of transcendence is not the same as actual metaphysical transcendence. Losing your sense of self due to a stroke does not mean you are communing with some overarching consciousness, it just means that the part of you that recognizes itself is malfunctioning.

If you believe that the brain does not produce consciousness, then how do you explain that strokes affecting particular areas have very predictable effects on the functioning of the mind?

Consciousness is not the same as functions of the brain.

 

[Crossbow]

Consciousness is not the same as functions of the brain.

You are wrong again.

 

[Porpoise of Life]

Consciousness is not the same as functions of the brain.

Hence.... my question you have quoted but ignored:
If you believe that the brain does not produce consciousness(which, apparently, you do), then how do you explain that strokes affecting particular areas of the brain have very predictable effects on the functioning of the mind?

 

[Hokulele]

Consciousness is not the same as functions of the brain.

If consciousness isn't a function of the brain, why does it change when the brain's functionality changes?

 

[MaartenVergu]

Define consciousness.

 

[MaartenVergu]

Thus there is no "contradiction in the scientific research."

The scientific research: "decrease or disfunction or RIGHT parietal lob of the brain causes experiences of self-trancendence".

Jill Bolte Tayler says: "my left brain didn't work anymore and I exprienced nirvana"

No contradiction?.

 

[Crossbow]

Define consciousness.

Sure thing!

I will gladly define that term for you.

consciousness: something that is quite misunderstood by 'Maartenn100'.

 

[Porpoise of Life]

Define consciousness.

No.

We're not going to play games of word-definition with you.
You made a claim, we're asking you to explain it.

If you need to use a particular meaning of the word consciousness to make your point, do so. We'll listen. What we are not going to do is define your terms for you.
This is a very transparent attempt to evade the questions by retreating into a senseless semantic argument.

 

[MaartenVergu]

Define consciousness

No.

You talk big about consciousness but you cannot even define it?

 

[MaartenVergu]

No.

If you need to use a particular meaning of the word consciousness to make your point, do so. We'll listen. What we are not going to do is define your terms for you.
This is a very transparent attempt to evade the questions by retreating into a senseless semantic argument.

Don't talk in the 'we'-form. Do not think that you talk for all people on this forum. Give your own opinion.

 

[MaartenVergu]

You are both avoiding to define 'consciousness', because do not know how to define it at all.

There is no clear defintion for it.
.

 

[Hokulele]

You are both avoiding to define 'consciousness', because do not know how to define it at all.

There is no clear defintion for it.
.

If you can't define it, why are you so sure it isn't a brain function?

 

[Steve001]

If consciousness isn't a function of the brain, why does it change when the brain's functionality changes?

A parsimonious question. However, folks that know consciousness does not arise from brain function would reply with this answer. The brain is like a radio receiver; when it becomes impaired it can't recieve as well. That's an analogy I've heard often. No matter what objection one might pose to folks, folks will believe what's emotionally satisfying. It's so frustrating.

 

[The Man]

The scientific research: "decrease or disfunction or RIGHT parietal lob of the brain causes experiences of self-trancendence".

Jill Bolte Tayler says: "my left brain didn't work anymore and I exprienced nirvana"

No contradiction?.

Nope, no contradiction, since neither asserted that only damage to one side or the other results in a feeling of transcendence of self.


See the neural basis of self for those areas of brain anatomy thought to contribute to our sense of self.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_basis_of_self

Anatomy[edit]


Two areas of the brain that are important in retrieving self-knowledge are the medial prefrontal cortex and the medial posterior parietal cortex.[3] The posterior cingulate cortex, the anterior cingulate cortex, and medial prefrontal cortex are thought to combine to provide humans with the ability to self-reflect. The insular cortex is also thought to be involved in the process of self-reference.[4]