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The "East Wind Rain" Message and FDR's Foreknowledge of Pearl Harbor

K-XVII (the sub in question) was in Singapore on the 8th December.
Now, just a back of the envelope calculation based on the cruising speed of an XIV (from wiki), and the apparent date of sighting (28th November), I get approximately 3360 miles (10 days at 12 knots).

Based on where the sighting was supposed to have happened (43.30 N 155.20 E), I get a distance of over 4000 miles...as the crow flies (involving pretty much steaming along the coast of Japan).

So no...
 
Key, indisputable evidence of the Pearl Harbor cover-up is the Merle-Smith message and the related and confirmatory Creighton message. . . .
The Creighton message, a copy of which surfaced during the JCC hearings, confirms that FDR knew we were at war by no later than 5 December:

This is the same "Christopher Creighton" who claimed:

1) That when a schoolboy he became Churchill's personal assassin, and in that incident was flown all over the Pacific to first destroy the Dutch sub, and then to exterminate the entire message center in Singapore that had received the message.

2) That after engineering the blackmailing of KGB Director Ivan Serov into becoming a British agent (killing British diver Lionel "Buster" Crabbe in an underwater fight along the way) he presented Lord Mountbatten to his long-lost love, Grand Duchess Maria of Russia.

3) That at the end of the war, he spearheaded a gigantic scheme to fly Reichsleiter Martin Bormann out of Berlin, along with SAS officer Fitzroy Maclean and Naval Intelligence officer Ian Fleming. They took Bormann to a safe house in Britain, where he turned over the secret Nazi Swiss banking accounts.

That "Christopher Creighton"?

Real name John Davies. When he went to Berlin as part of a publicity event for that last work, Op JB, he managed to got lost, and when he walked away from the publicity staff, he changed hotels, but still registered under his own name.

See Counterfeit Spies by "Nigel West" (Rupert Allason) for a detailed analysis of this fantast's fables.

:blackcat:
 
bobtaftfan means John Creighton, the US Naval Observer in Singapore. The message didn't have anything to do with Pearl Harbor, but was him passing on info that someone had told him someone else (the Brooke-Popham mentioned in bobtaftfan's quote) had said regarding whether the British believed that the US would offer armed support if the British acted "to forestall Japs landing Isthmus of Kra [or] to take action in reply to Nips invasion any other part of Siam [or] if Dutch Indies are attacked".

Apparently in the mind of Pear Harbor conspiracists, Roosevelt knew the US was already at war with Japan due to the Japanese being about to attack the British and Dutch in the Western Pacific (which made the British and Dutch activate their war plans to prepare for attack which means the US should have activated its own war plans in support of the British and Dutch), but still deliberately didn't notify his own military (especially the forces at Pearl Harbor) to be ready and alert for combat with Japanese forces by December 7th.

In reality, as Brooke-Popham himself reported to the British chiefs of staff, the British were still trying to avoid actual war with Japan, and merely made ready to activate their war plans just in case they were needed, but not to actually go onto a war footing or consider that a state of war existed between them and Japan. Even in response to hearing about two Japanese convoys headed for Southeast Asia on December 6th, he said,

"Bearing in mind the policy of avoiding war with Japan if possible - a policy which had been reaffirmed by the Chief of Staff as recently as the 29th November and the situation in the United States with the Kurusu talks still going on in Washington, I decided I would not be justified in ordering 'Matador' [his plan for the defense of Malaya against Japanese invasion] on this information...the main reason being that at least 24 hours start was required before the anticipated time of a Japanese landing and this was most likely to be unavailable, should the three ships seen turn out to be part of a Japanese expedition. Further, the conditions for reconnaissance were bad, on the information available there could be no certainty that the Japanese were about to open hostilities, and on more than one occasion the British Minister to Thailand had stressed the serious consequences that would ensue should we be the first to break Thai neutrality. It is pertinent to record that, until the Japanese had committed some definite act of hostility against the United States, the Dutch, or ourselves, permission had not been given to attack a Japanese expedition at sea."

In other words, Creighton's message was a telephone-game mangling of the actual British actions being taken, the British and Dutch did not consider themselves to be actually at war with Japan before Pearl Harbor and therefore the US was also not at war with Japan because of that, and Roosevelt did not hide the fact that the US was currently at war with anyone on the morning of December 7th, 1941.
 
Too many Creightons!

And sort of technically, the British were at war with the Japanese before Pearl Harbour...by about an hour.
;)
 
I've been musing about this whole PH nonsense.

Let us take a brief moment to consider where we are if bobtaftfan's fantasy was true.

What on earth difference would it make?

All of the prime movers involved in a 70+ year old event are dead. Even the vast majority of the basic foot soldiers are dead on every side.

There remain alive today some few octogenarians who, while participating and witnessing the events of the time, were mere teenagers at the time.

Suppose we just accept BTF's fantasy as true. Then what? What is it that he wants to happen?
 
It allows the US to believe once again in the infallibility of their armed forces. The only way those brave boys were caught so unawares is due to treason of the Democrats, not the military abilities of their non-American/white foes. Once America realizes the depths to which the Democrats sunk, they will punish the party in perpetuity, ushering in an era of Republican/American greatness.

Or something like that.
 
It allows the US to believe once again in the infallibility of their armed forces. The only way those brave boys were caught so unawares is due to treason of the Democrats, not the military abilities of their non-American/white foes. Once America realizes the depths to which the Democrats sunk, they will punish the party in perpetuity, ushering in an era of Republican/American greatness.

Or something like that.
This could almost be its own thread in the CT section.
 
It allows the Republicans to claim that the only good war President is a Republican war President. The fact that FDR was Commander in Chief for the majority of the greatest war in the history of the world is a serious embarrassment, but if he can be retrospectively re-cast as a traitor then only a Republican president will do whenever there's a war, or any kind of national or international crisis that can be referred to as a war.

Dave
 
bobtaftfan repeats the old, old canard that Roosevelt wanted to “drag the U.S. into the war.”

It is not a canard at all. Roosevelt talked in public of "neutrality" while in private did everything possible to support the Allies. If the USA was genuinely neutral it would not have provided arms and ammunition to the British and Soviets. A genuine neutral would have not helped either side or sold arms and ammunition to both sides. Roosevelt was not neutral.
A code clerk who worked at the US embassy in London - Tyler Kent - kept records of secret correspondence between Roosevelt and Churchill were the American president was reported as doing everything possible to aid the British war effort while pretending to be "neutral". He was arrested and imprisoned for his whistleblowing. This happened before the 1940 election. If this news had broken before then it may have torpedoed Roosevelt's bid at re-election -
http://codoh.com/library/document/2049/
The really sickening thing about Roosevelt is that when he used phrases such as "a war for democracy" he lumped Stalin's USSR in the democratic camp. He was foaming at the mouth about Hitler being a dictator well what the hell did he think Stalin was ? This is why a lot of people were sceptical of his intentions and they were proven correct. After news of the Katyn massacre broke he helped to cover it up for Stalin -
www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/?p=56206
He had a proven track record on this. When Stalin was deliberately starving millions of Ukrainians to death in the holodomor he simply ignored it -
www.thenewamerican.com/culture/history/item/4656-holodomor-the-secret-holocaust-in-ukraine/
www.ucrdc.org/Film-Harvest_of_Despair.html
In 1939 two countries invaded Poland. Germany on 1 September 1939 and the Soviet Union on 17 September 1939 -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Poland
Roosevelt condemned the German invasion and ignored the Soviet one. And in 1945 at the Yalta conference he and Churchill signed over Poland to Stalin. They made a mockery of why the Allies declared war on Germany in the first place that is fighting for the independence of Poland. A soviet communist totalitarian state is not a democracy.
Roosevelt is the one who came up with the policy of Unconditional Surrender which meant a fight to the death instead of a negotiated peace. This prolonged the war and caused millions of unnecessary deaths on both sides.
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=10192
Therefore the American public who were against Roosevelt's warmongering had every right to express their opinion. They have been vindicated.
www.jrbooksonline.com/fdr-scandal-page/fdr.html
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=7486
 
It is not a canard at all. Roosevelt talked in public of "neutrality" while in private did everything possible to support the Allies. If the USA was genuinely neutral it would not have provided arms and ammunition to the British and Soviets. A genuine neutral would have not helped either side or sold arms and ammunition to both sides. Roosevelt was not neutral.
A code clerk who worked at the US embassy in London - Tyler Kent - kept records of secret correspondence between Roosevelt and Churchill were the American president was reported as doing everything possible to aid the British war effort while pretending to be "neutral". He was arrested and imprisoned for his whistleblowing. This happened before the 1940 election. If this news had broken before then it may have torpedoed Roosevelt's bid at re-election -
http://codoh.com/library/document/2049/
How is helping to keep Britain from losing, while hiding the same, trying to "drag the U.S. into the war"?
 
It is not a canard at all. Roosevelt talked in public of "neutrality" while in private did everything possible to support the Allies. If the USA was genuinely neutral it would not have provided arms and ammunition to the British and Soviets. A genuine neutral would have not helped either side or sold arms and ammunition to both sides. Roosevelt was not neutral.

Neither was Sweden, or Switzerland according to your theory. If either of them had been genuinely neutral....

A code clerk who worked at the US embassy in London - Tyler Kent - kept records of secret correspondence between Roosevelt and Churchill were the American president was reported as doing everything possible to aid the British war effort while pretending to be "neutral". He was arrested and imprisoned for his whistleblowing. This happened before the 1940 election. If this news had broken before then it may have torpedoed Roosevelt's bid at re-election -

http://codoh.com/library/document/2049/


A head of state communicating with the chief executive of another state? Why would that torpedo an election?

A cipher clerk disclosing classified communications? That is criminal.
 
I've been musing about this whole PH nonsense.

Let us take a brief moment to consider where we are if bobtaftfan's fantasy was true.

What on earth difference would it make?

All of the prime movers involved in a 70+ year old event are dead. Even the vast majority of the basic foot soldiers are dead on every side.

There remain alive today some few octogenarians who, while participating and witnessing the events of the time, were mere teenagers at the time.

Suppose we just accept BTF's fantasy as true. Then what? What is it that he wants to happen?

It goes towards discrediting FDR, whose programs were consdiered the antithesis of the Unrestricted Free Market Capitalism that the Utopia of the US apparently enjoyed prior to the New Deal programs. These folks love themselves some UFMC and are too stupid to realize that without FDR's programs it would be their butts in front of the firing squad when Communism or some other revolution came around.
 
It wouldn't surprise me in the least if Roosevelt knew beforehand Pearl Harbor was going to be attacked as it in keeping with his devious nature. Roosevelt was a pathological liar who used deception, deceit and subterfuge to achieve his warmongering goals. Further proof of this is his outlandish claim that a so called "secret map" which purported to show a nazi plan to invade South America had come into his possession. The whole story was a complete fabrication. Roosevelt lied through his teeth -
http://mentalfloss.com/article/61714/astounding-counterfeit-nazi-invasion-map-you've-never-heard
http://codoh.com/library/document/2119/
 
Further proof of this is his outlandish claim that a so called "secret map" which purported to show a nazi plan to invade South America had come into his possession. The whole story was a complete fabrication. Roosevelt lied through his teeth -
http://mentalfloss.com/article/61714/astounding-counterfeit-nazi-invasion-map-you've-never-heard
http://codoh.com/library/document/2119/

As usual, your sources don't support your allegations. Reading the links you provide, there's no more than speculation that Roosevelt may have known that the map was a fake produced by the British intelligence services (for whom it would be a fairly legitimate ruse de guerre, I suspect). Since nobody knows what Roosevelt knew yet you're claiming certainty that he lied, one wonders who's lying through his teeth here.

Dave
 
It wouldn't surprise me in the least if Roosevelt knew beforehand Pearl Harbor was going to be attacked as it in keeping with his devious nature. Roosevelt was a pathological liar who used deception, deceit and subterfuge to achieve his warmongering goals. Further proof of this is his outlandish claim that a so called "secret map" which purported to show a nazi plan to invade South America had come into his possession. The whole story was a complete fabrication. Roosevelt lied through his teeth -
http://mentalfloss.com/article/61714/astounding-counterfeit-nazi-invasion-map-you've-never-heard
http://codoh.com/library/document/2119/

Oh did Roosevelt declare war on Germany or did something else happen?

Lol
 
Oh did Roosevelt declare war on Germany or did something else happen?

Lol
Roosevelt ordered the US navy to attack German submarines. From the article How Franklin Roosevelt Lied America Into War by William Henry Chamberlin - "The orders to American warships to shoot at sight at German submarines, formally announced on September 11 1941. The beginning of actual hostilities may be dated from this time rather than from the German declaration of war which followed Pearl Harbor". (3 months before Hitler's declaration of war against the US) -
http://codoh.com/library/document/2554/
Roosevelt's Road To War -
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=7486
 
A head of state communicating with the chief executive of another state? Why would that torpedo an election?

For your information the secret correspondence started even before Churchill became prime minister. It would damage Roosevelt's election chances because it showed that he was doing everything in his power to aid and abet one side while publicly claiming to be neutral. It doesn't seem to bother you in the least that Roosevelt was a pathological liar. Oh, yes, they were fighting for "democracy". The trouble is that Roosevelt included Stalin and his USSR as one of the "democracies".
www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/?p=56206
 
Roosevelt ordered the US navy to attack German submarines. From the article How Franklin Roosevelt Lied America Into War by William Henry Chamberlin - "The orders to American warships to shoot at sight at German submarines, formally announced on September 11 1941. The beginning of actual hostilities may be dated from this time rather than from the German declaration of war which followed Pearl Harbor". (3 months before Hitler's declaration of war against the US) -
http://codoh.com/library/document/2554/
Roosevelt's Road To War -
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=7486

You mean the order he issued after a German submarine fired on a US Navy destroyer first?
 
Roosevelt ordered the US navy to attack German submarines.

Oh my what a meanie....I mean those horrible Americans attacking those perfectly innocent submarines who were out for summer cruises now weren't they? They weren't attacking neutral ships were they?

From the article How Franklin Roosevelt Lied America Into War by William Henry Chamberlin - "The orders to American warships to shoot at sight at German submarines, formally announced on September 11 1941. The beginning of actual hostilities may be dated from this time rather than from the German declaration of war which followed Pearl Harbor". (3 months before Hitler's declaration of war against the US) -

Mondail explain why the German actions against the SS Robin Moor were justified?
 
For your information the secret correspondence started even before Churchill became prime minister. It would damage Roosevelt's election chances because it showed that he was doing everything in his power to aid and abet one side while publicly claiming to be neutral. It doesn't seem to bother you in the least that Roosevelt was a pathological liar. Oh, yes, they were fighting for "democracy". The trouble is that Roosevelt included Stalin and his USSR as one of the "democracies".
www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/?p=56206

And?

The US sold munitions AFVs to Canada as well, plus engaged in talks concerning continental defence prior to the US involvement in WWII as well.
 

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